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Old Dec 28, 2012, 12:29 PM   #51
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I don't trust them ( the country, not the people. I have no personal issues with anyone living in any country ), they are the biggest political wild card outside of North Korea, you never know what they'll do.
What is "the country" if not "the people"?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 12:31 PM   #52
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What is "the country" if not "the people"?
Surely if we can draw a distinction between the Israeli government and the Jewish people, we can separate the Chinese government from its people too.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 12:40 PM   #53
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Why do you think they freak out when theres more than 1 carrier near Taiwan?
Because Taiwan is pretty close to China compared to the US...

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Because rebellion and civil uprisings have ever stopped them before
One protest where a few thousand people were killed isn't really the same as suppressing an entire developed province.

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As if China gives a damn what the world thinks, these are the same people who think that their territorial waters extend 250 miles from their shores, then get all pissy when everyone ignores it.
Much as I hate to defend them on this, there is historical precedent. They aren't claiming anything the Qing dynasty didn't claim.

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I'm talking about an economic collapse, in 25 years time, 60% of the Chinese people will be to old to work, and the rest will have to support them, thats not sustainable.
So they'll work longer. People don't have to retire at 65...

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Look at history, Russia has been the wild card, you never know who it'll side with, weather it stays neutral, or goes one way or the other, its not predictable, it never has been. Even in the days of the Soviet Union, proxy wars anyone?
The US has never fought any proxy wars, and neither have the British...

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Not, all lots did. But you still have the issues of a lack of free society, re education, and forced labor camps, people getting run over by tanks...
None of which affect the SAR's.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 12:54 PM   #54
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Because Taiwan is pretty close to China compared to the US...
And? International waters.

Or they're jealous they can't build carriers /heavy sarcasm

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One protest where a few thousand people were killed isn't really the same as suppressing an entire developed province.
Considering the size of China's standing army, it wouldn't be to hard.

I personally don't any more US Military technology falling into China's hands. And they would happen if Taiwan became part of china.

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Much as I hate to defend them on this, there is historical precedent. They aren't claiming anything the Qing dynasty didn't claim.
They can claim anything they want, it doesn't mean anyones going to listen.

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So they'll work longer. People don't have to retire at 65...
The one child policy is what did it, and its not a matter of retiring at 65, its that when people start hitting those ages they won't be able to do the long hours and hard labor that makes up the bulk of the Chinese economy, so you either work them to death ( where they wont last long ), or just start killing them all, it'll probably be one of those two.

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The US has never fought any proxy wars, and neither have the British...
True

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What is "the country" if not "the people"?
The government vs the people. I am sure we know there is a difference between the Iranian government and the bulk of the Iranian people.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 01:07 PM   #55
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The U.S. has made a habit of fighting nations it thinks it can easily defeat.
Fixed that for you
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 01:20 PM   #56
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Fixed that for you
The US is really good at defeating large miliaties, but has a problem with insurgency for whatever reason, probably because they aren't doing it right.

If we were so serious about Iraq ( false intelligence, wooo! ), we could have turned that country into dust, but no. We had to do it the hard way.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 01:40 PM   #57
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If we were so serious about Iraq ( false intelligence, wooo! ), we could have turned that country into dust, but no. We had to do it the hard way.
Aren't you the same guy complaining because other nations that killed millions of people?

And now you're suggesting that the U.S.A should have done the same?



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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:12 PM   #58
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The US is really good at defeating large militias
Such as?

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If we were so serious about Iraq ( false intelligence, wooo! ), we could have turned that country into dust, but no. We had to do it the hard way.
Do you really think that vaporising 20 million people is the answer to anything at all?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 03:15 PM   #59
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Aren't you the same guy complaining because other nations that killed millions of people?

And now you're suggesting that the U.S.A should have done the same?



I'm not purposely saying purposely kill anyone, but lets be honest. There would have been better ways to deal with insurgents.

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Such as?

Do you really think that vaporising 20 million people is the answer to anything at all?
WW2 should be a great example.

During the 2nd Iraq war, Iraq had the 4th largest standing army in the world, they fell in 3 weeks.

The thing I'm getting at, if China wants to go after Japan or Taiwan, they would have to do it via Sea, or Air, do you really think they have the numbers, technology, or know how to get past the 5th fleet? The answer is, they don't.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 03:24 PM   #60
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China would be after Japan and Taiwan, which means mostly Naval Warfare, that would be a quick, and easy win for the US Navy.

I couldn't see either side using Nukes.
quick and easy win ... quick and easy win ... where have I heard something similar before?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 03:35 PM   #61
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quick and easy win ... quick and easy win ... where have I heard something similar before?
The question is, do the Chinese have the technology or numbers, or know how? Or even skilled enough personal to get through the 5th fleet? I doubt that very much. The 5th fleet has some NICE ships.

And as far as Iraq goes, we should have never went in to start with, the war was ' won ' in about 3 weeks, should have left right then and not do any of this " nation building " crap.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 04:12 PM   #62
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I'm not purposely saying purposely kill anyone, but lets be honest. There would have been better ways to deal with insurgents.
I'd be interested in how you think they could have been better dealt with considering that the insurgents mixed with the general population.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 04:18 PM   #63
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And? International waters.

Or they're jealous they can't build carriers /heavy sarcasm
So if the Chinese put their navy 250 miles off the US continental coast you wouldn't have an issue?

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They can claim anything they want, it doesn't mean anyones going to listen.
They are one of the world's most powerful countries, of course people will listen.

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The one child policy is what did it, and its not a matter of retiring at 65, its that when people start hitting those ages they won't be able to do the long hours and hard labor that makes up the bulk of the Chinese economy, so you either work them to death ( where they wont last long ), or just start killing them all, it'll probably be one of those two.
I think you massively underestimate modern China.

Shanghai province is as rich as Portugal. All they have to do is replicate that success internally.

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I'm not purposely saying purposely kill anyone, but lets be honest. There would have been better ways to deal with insurgents.
So you criticise China for the Tiananmen Square incident, but think the US should have behaved worse in Iraq.

For serious?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 04:21 PM   #64
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I'd be interested in how you think they could have been better dealt with considering that the insurgents mixed with the general population.
Personally, I would have pulled as much of the urban population of cities out of the cities, and put them in camps. Will make it much easier to weed out the bad ones.

OR, I would have just never went in personally, its a kind of war we should have never fought.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 04:22 PM   #65
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Personally, I would have pulled as much of the urban population of cities out of the cities, and put them in camps. Will make it much easier to weed out the bad ones.
Maybe re-education camps? The hypocrisy is astounding.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 04:27 PM   #66
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So if the Chinese put their navy 250 miles off the US continental coast you wouldn't have an issue?
The Chinese navy? Sure, let em. Its a floating junkyard, nothing that can't be neutralized easily. So let em.

Its not so much the carrier ( the Chinese would have a hard time sinking one ), its the fact that the Chinese think we'll listen which I find amusing.

No one besides China recognizes their " protected economic zone " or whatever the hell they call it now, and they love to saber rattle. Its silly.

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They are one of the world's most powerful countries, of course people will listen.
No one ever really has, esp the USN. ( The 5th fleet alone could decimate most of China's military ).

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I think you massively underestimate modern China.

Shanghai province is as rich as Portugal. All they have to do is replicate that success internally.
China is already succesful, its not about replicating success, its about what happens when 60% of your population litterally is to old to work, and everyone else has to support them, that is a huge problem.

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So you criticise China for the Tiananmen Square incident, but think the US should have behaved worse in Iraq.

For serious?
Theres a bit of a difference, I think we should have NEVER gone into Iraq personally, but if we did, we should have found Saddam ( which we did ), Found the WMDs that never existed, and just left. Not do any of this rebuilding garbage.

As far as underestimating the Chinese military, I don't think most people fully understand the Capabilities of the USN and USAF, China would never be able to lay a finger on Japan. The problem with the Chinese is military is that they don't have anything as good as the US does, or even as good as what Europe has, and the modern planes they do have, they don't have near enough of them.

Then, like the J20 stealth fighter, they love to claim so many capabilities...but we never see any of it actually...work....
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:00 PM   #67
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The Chinese navy? Sure, let em. Its a floating junkyard, nothing that can't be neutralized easily. So let em.

Its not so much the carrier ( the Chinese would have a hard time sinking one ), its the fact that the Chinese think we'll listen which I find amusing.
Now, sure, but soon enough it will be pretty strong. At the end of the day in 2100 China and India will be the most powerful countries on earth - thanks to those countries having the most people. They've already copied enough from the West that unless we hit an advance like industrialisation (which they fail to copy - which is unlikely as they've copied lots of stuff from us already in recent years) that that is basically guaranteed.

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its about what happens when 60% of your population litterally is to old to work, and everyone else has to support them, that is a huge problem.
So in 20 years 60% of Chinese will be over 80. Wow.

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No one ever really has,
Except for basically everyone - it isn't 1840 anymore.

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esp the USN. ( The 5th fleet alone could decimate most of China's military ).
Given the US couldn't defeat the Vietnamese I'd be highly amused to see them try and "decimate" the Chinese military.

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No one besides China recognizes their " protected economic zone " or whatever the hell they call it now, and they love to saber rattle. Its silly.
Except for those who know their world history from before about 1820.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:22 PM   #68
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WW2 should be a great example.
Of the US defeating militias?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 08:38 PM   #69
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U.S. 2nd amendment, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

In addition to U.S. military might, added to the equation is America's plethora of "well-regulated militias". I am only assuming this because, with more than 300 million guns in U.S. society - and given that the Constitution assumed these would somehow be associated with well-regulated militias -- the U.S. government ought to start shipping off some of these well-regulated militias to global hotspots around the world to enforce America's might. If China were to attack the U.S. west coast with an amphibious landing, they can well expect to be met on the beaches by well-regulated miltias.

You know, I started writing this satirically -- but, after considering it, I do believe that if any foreign country were to invade the U.S., as well as the U.S. Armed Forces, they would be met by fanatical resistance by 300 million guns, far exceeding the resistance of the likes of the French Resistance in WW2 or the Iraqi insurgents. I think the American gun owners of those 300 million guns would put up a pretty stiff home resistance.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 09:07 PM   #70
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You know, I started writing this satirically -- but, after considering it, I do believe that if any foreign country were to invade the U.S., as well as the U.S. Armed Forces, they would be met by fanatical resistance by 300 million guns, far exceeding the resistance of the likes of the French Resistance in WW2 or the Iraqi insurgents. I think the American gun owners of those 300 million guns would put up a pretty stiff home resistance.
One thing I'd like for you to also consider ...

When you look at occupied countries in recent history, there has not been a neat division of combatants, i.e., the occupying force vs. the occupied.

Of course the occupied hate their occupiers and do everything in their power to kill them. But what you also find is the occupied forces splinter into smaller factions and spend much of their time fighting each other.

Before you leave with the romanticized view of 300 million guns all fighting the invading horde, I'd like to inject upon your imagination a good number of those guns being used against fellow citizens caught up in internecine warfare.

Please consider that the next time a Red Dawn fantasy begins to appeal to you.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 09:46 PM   #71
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You know, I started writing this satirically -- but, after considering it, I do believe that if any foreign country were to invade the U.S., as well as the U.S. Armed Forces, they would be met by fanatical resistance by 300 million guns, far exceeding the resistance of the likes of the French Resistance in WW2 or the Iraqi insurgents. I think the American gun owners of those 300 million guns would put up a pretty stiff home resistance.
China would not start a war against Japan (and indirect US) and invade mainland US. They will not destroy their investment because they just buy US ...

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Old Dec 29, 2012, 12:14 AM   #72
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Now, sure, but soon enough it will be pretty strong. At the end of the day in 2100 China and India will be the most powerful countries on earth - thanks to those countries having the most people. They've already copied enough from the West that unless we hit an advance like industrialisation (which they fail to copy - which is unlikely as they've copied lots of stuff from us already in recent years) that that is basically guaranteed.[COLOR="#808080"]
2100 is a long way away, the US, or India, or China might not even exist as we know it, long time, things change. Right now, I don't think China is a Match for the US when it comes to power projection. And I think they are at bare minimum, 50 years away from coming close. Nothing aganist the Chinese, but it took them the better part of a decade to get a pre built soviet carrier running, do you really think they have the know how to build something like a Nimtiz? I think they don't. The US navy even thinks its building are so far ahead, they refuse to let other countries scrap ships from the 60s.

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So in 20 years 60% of Chinese will be over 80. Wow
Not 80, but lots of them will be entering their 60s and 70s, to old to do the slave labor that powers the Chinese economy, that will become an issue.

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Except for basically everyone - it isn't 1840 anymore.
I can't think of...any country that actually fully acknowledges the protected economic zone, its pretty disturbed, and the US seems to completely ignore it.

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Given the US couldn't defeat the Vietnamese I'd be highly amused to see them try and "decimate" the Chinese military.
Could the US invade China? Hell no, their army is to big.

But, if your PLAN ( The Chinese Navy ), and you want to strike Japan, or Taiwan, you have to do it 2 ways.

1: Land troops via parachute, or landing craft on beach's.
2: Airstrike, then land troops.

If your the Chinese what will do you? You have the Japanese ( its not a slouch ), and US 5th fleet standing in your way.

You don't control the skies, you don't control the ocean, how the hell do strike your enemy much less invade them? Your hopelessly out gunned, out numbered, You can't get a plane into the sky without getting shot of the sky, you would be facing the F18 Super Hornet, which is a notch about anything china has in decent numbers, ( god help the Chinese if the USAF deploys F22s in Japan ) your inferior submarines and ship to ship missiles will not be able to breech USN defenses, and your ships will be sunk left and right, your land based planes will blown out of the skies, your anti ship missiles will be blown out of the skies by USN escorts, and your getting your ass handed to by USN and USAF Airpower.

What do you do? You lose. The Chinese have a good army, yes. But their Air Force is hopelessly outdated, they do have some good planes, but very very small numbers of them. All would be land based, which would mean in air refueling, which is impossible with the USN swarming the ocean. And China has no way to put planes out at sea. How can PLAN possibly defend itself against the US navy? Let alone go on the offensive? Chinese ships are at early 70s levels of defensive and offensive capabilities at best.

No offense to the Chinese, I've been to China before, lots of the people are very nice, but any attempt to seize japan or Taiwan, will end in failure. I spend time on USN vessels as a civilian contractor, there is a reason a vast majority of USN weapons systems are classified. Look at AEGIS, any AEGIS armed ship can shoot satellites out of orbit no problem, the Chinese don't have anything like that ability. ( They did manage to do it with a ICBM, from a land based launch site, about 30 years off from the USN ), the USN is looking at putting railguns on ships in the next 20 years.

PLAN really needs to start looking at its real capabilities before it would ever get all aggressive, otherwise it will end up on the bottom of the ocean.

What do you do? Outside of going nuclear? Your fleet is on the bottom of the ocean, or on fire, tens of thousands of troops are dead, drowned in the ships that were hit by Harpoon ASMs. or sunk by submarines ( Chinese subs are a joke ) a very large number of land based aircraft are gone, the USN and USAF has destroyed a large number of airfields and factories ( China has zero defense against the B2, they don't have the ability to track a B2, let alone shoot one down ), tens of thousands of soldiers dead, your entire navy decimated, give up? or go nuclear? And lose anyway?

Maybe its because I know more than most people, but I don't think people really understand what a huge force the USN and USAF really are. In ocean warfare, China won't stand a chance.

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Except for those who know their world history from before about 1820.
I'll admit, outside of basic European and American history, I don't. Because I don't care.

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Of the US defeating militias?
I misread, I'm sorry.

Yes, the US sucks at fighting insurgents, ( Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan ).

Personally, nothing a good carpet bombing can't fix.

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Old Dec 29, 2012, 02:32 AM   #73
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Personally, nothing a good carpet bombing can't fix.
Now you're like China.

Untrustworthy.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 02:36 AM   #74
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Now you're like China.

Untrustworthy.
If I were a country other than the US? I wouldn't trust the US for one second, unless I was an already close ally.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 02:56 AM   #75
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Given the US couldn't defeat the Vietnamese I'd be highly amused to see them try and "decimate" the Chinese military.
You're comparing apples to oranges.

GS is right about one thing. The US military is very capable of handling large scale warfare. Probably the best in the world. A Chinese invading force would fall under this category. Their army, much like ours, is built in the WWII - Cold War mold. It's what we've prepared ourselves to handle.

But when it comes to unconventional warfare and guerrilla tactics, the US military falls far short. We're great at rushing in, kicking asses and breaking resistance. But as soon as we settle down to fortify ourselves, we're practically sitting ducks for surgical strikes perpetrated by a fluidly moving enemy that doesn't operate on a rigid front basis. This is why we lost in Vietnam, and why we got slowly got our asses handed to us in Iraq. We're not equipped to deal with it.

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