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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:57 PM   #26
wizard
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Originally Posted by Thunderhawks View Post

Obviously nobody is interested in a report that says:

In todays news all factories in China were running smoothly.
True. More importantly it is better to criticize people on the other side of the planet than it is right here in the USA. After all you are protected by miles of ocean and air space.
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Nobody is out of a job and every worker met his/her quota, is health insured (Hello America!!) has a safe retirement fund (Hello America!) gets paid more than minimum wage (Hello America!)
Actually I'm not concerned myself about minimum wage earners as so many of them simply don't have the mental capacity to hold down jobs that require extra effort. As far as health insurance goes there are serious issues with the way we are doing things now that universal coverage will only make worst. But that is another discussion.
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Plus, they now all get colored screwdrivers for employee appreciation.
Which our fine government declared taxable income. I work for a company that actually did fairly well with "employee appreciation" and the like for years and then the government declared such things taxable income. So what was once a $50 gift card for thanksgiving is now half that and any thought of a reward for a good quarter is more of an accounting headache than it is worth. Our fine government and the desire to tax everything has had as much of a negative impact on the American worker as the bad management of those workers practiced in many places.
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In short, until people become educated and look further than their apartment door, they will fall for sensationalist reporting all the time.
(And get bored with a subject after 3 days of over reporting)
The media in the USA has become adept at manipulating the public to push a liberal socialist agenda. Frankly it seems to be the only thing they care about, it doesn't matter if honesty or a grasp of the situation being discussed is practiced; if the underlying agenda can be advanced then they are happy.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:59 PM   #27
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Just saw the video. That Quanta factory working for HP just puts Foxconn to shame.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 06:13 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by wizard View Post
I've personally have been in plants in Brazil, Ireland and Germany and honestly folks the workers in the USA get treated like crap in comparison. Spend some time outside of your office cubicle and actually see what is going on in the real world. All of this nonsense doesn't reflect the reality of the situation, of you want to get the ball rolling start right here in the USA.
I think the U.S. is part of planet Earth so I don't see how my comment about hoping things get better on a global scale is off base.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 06:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by wizard View Post
These comments are so ill informed that frankly I don't know what to say. You really can't believe everything you read in the newspaper. Some of the nonsense gets proven wrong if you follow the stories long enough and others are just fantasies more than reality.

I've personally have been in plants in Brazil, Ireland and Germany and honestly folks the workers in the USA get treated like crap in comparison. Spend some time outside of your office cubicle and actually see what is going on in the real world. All of this nonsense doesn't reflect the reality of the situation, of you want to get the ball rolling start right here in the USA.

By the way, it isn't corporations that are a big problem in the USA, government regulation plays a big part in the problem. If you have a good production run for a quarter you have your hands literally tied when it comes to any sort of reward because everything is seen as taxable by the government. You can't even issue gift cards for the local grocery store for Thanksgiving without an accountant some placing insisting it is taxable income and he is only doing so due to government regulation.

Take a view of manufacturing in Brazil where some plants underwrite the cost of food in the plant dining facilities. You might think OK but that is terrible cafeteria food and you would be wrong. It is very high quality food and puts what is served in most US plants to shame, actually most US restaurants for that matter.

The idea that manufacturing plants outside of the USA are somehow universally managed in horrific ways is fantasy. Sure people are expected to work and maybe that is what people in the US are afraid of. I really don't know what the issue is here but I really think we need to eliminate welfare in the US, for people capable of working and let them go hungry. Because frankly we are through the media supporting the wrong causes.
Being from another country I have also been to many different countries and factories therein. And, I have been to American companies which were run well and some which weren't.

On top of that I happen to own a factory.

While I tried to implement certain positives and gave out things in appreciation,
eventually I cut everything out, because of the reason you mention.
If you want to do honest accounting, you can't misclassify things and actually give workers things.

The main issue with workers is that many are just not educated (Yes, people scream now) enough to even care or figure out things.
They might as well be robots.

They do not reason or have the attitude that FIRST you have to show some extra effort to be noticed (invest into your job) and THEN you get rewarded, promoted, more money etc.

I can understand that at minimum wage people do not care, but that is just bad and false thinking.

In my factory are workers who have been there for a long time and don't ever want to do more than what they do. They are just not interested to learn any additional skills.

New employees showed up, put in extra effort, showed good work ethics and bypassed these people within weeks getting much more money and got promoted to supervisors etc.

It's just what people want to be and do.

Being happy with minimum wage and go home at 4:30 is a personal choice.

The people who criticize factory work or the way "companies" handle their employees do so from their desk jobs or without first hand experience.

Many times I work alongside the assembly line to see who does what, who figures things out and who is willing to learn.
I am always looking for potential future supervisors, line leaders etc. and the picking is slim.

Too much to discuss about manufacturing here, but a lot of tinfoil hat comments from the Monday morning quarterbacks.

Back to Apple. I think they are smart not to own a factory, but they are also smart enough to put pressure on their supply line partners to get out of bad P/R.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 07:22 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bubba Satori View Post
What guessing?

"He called me the night before and said that he did not want to work for Foxconn anymore."

You should have read the article.
Not that it would have changed your attitude.
You're too morally invested in your iStuff.
Carry on. It's obviously a conspiracy.
"He did not want to work for Foxconn anymore". Many people don't want to work where they are. Some quit their jobs. Others continue even when they don't like it. No person in reasonable mental health would kill themselves for that reason. "I don't want to work for Foxconn anymore" isn't any reasonable explanation for a suicide. So you _were_ guessing.

And it's obviously not a conspiracy. It is posters like you, who either don't know anything about statistics or are willfully ignorant, who post this kind of nonsense, with no conspiracy involved.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 07:34 PM   #31
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Apple can't win.

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Originally Posted by MacRumors View Post
Despite the changes that do appear to be making an impact on working conditions, some advocates indicate that Apple could be doing even more.
Apple could be doing more, so now it's doing nothing? Yes, let's let the perfect be the enemy of the good. *sigh*
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 07:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by pianophile View Post
Apple could be doing more, so now it's doing nothing? Yes, let's let the perfect be the enemy of the good. *sigh*
I also think Apple could do more:

How about World Peace Apple?
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 08:20 PM   #33
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Prices

Expect price increases.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 08:27 PM   #34
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You know, when a corporation sends a labor message to its own government, that's a thing.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 08:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Mike84 View Post
What the heck are you talking about? Samsung did not raise prices on Apple by 20%. That report was quickly changed to say that it was not the case.
It's what happens when you use truther logic and are driven by contempt.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 08:51 PM   #36
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If the people in the comments section of macrumors met in person, there would be lots of killing
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:16 PM   #37
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Long-term solutions require a messier, more human approach
this never would happen if Steve Jobs were still alive!

Good move. I like Apple with T. Cook a lot more.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:37 PM   #38
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If the people in the comments section of macrumors met in person, there would be lots of killing
Seriously. The more online banter I read, the more I truly lose faith in humanity. Why do people get so heated? Since the internet took hold in the mid-90's in main stream society, why does its anonymity bring out the worst in people? I wonder if we all conversed in person, would even a fraction of some of these hateful comments exist?
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:46 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bubba Satori View Post
Foxconn worker commits suicide.
Twice.

"After 40 days working in Foxconn's Shenzhen factory, a 18-year-old male twice jumped off the same hotel building to commit suicide, according to a local newspaper's report.

The man, only identified as Li, tried to kill himself by leaping out of the stairwell window between the third and fourth floor in a hotel in Shenzhen around 5.30pm on Dec. 10, 2012. The local police said that he was likely caught by the advertising board and survived the first fall, but then he went to a higher level in the same building to jump again."

http://www.zdnet.com/cn/foxconn-work...ed-7000009152/

I guess he found out about the accelerated iPad release schedule.
I guess nobody is interested in the report that says China companies that assembles devices for Samsung Electronics hired children at its production facilities and forced employees to work excessive hours :

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...roup-says.html
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Boston007 View Post
Expect price increases.
Don't jump...

...to conclusions.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 10:14 PM   #41
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Second time lucky?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Satori View Post
Foxconn worker commits suicide.
Twice.

"After 40 days working in Foxconn's Shenzhen factory, a 18-year-old male twice jumped off the same hotel building to commit suicide, according to a local newspaper's report.

The man, only identified as Li, tried to kill himself by leaping out of the stairwell window between the third and fourth floor in a hotel in Shenzhen around 5.30pm on Dec. 10, 2012. The local police said that he was likely caught by the advertising board and survived the first fall, but then he went to a higher level in the same building to jump again."

http://www.zdnet.com/cn/foxconn-work...ed-7000009152/

I guess he found out about the accelerated iPad release schedule.
Committing suicide twice sounds like quite the challenge.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:25 PM   #42
Rachel Faith
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Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
And there is actually a word that entered the English language: "Going postal" because of US employees in boring jobs going to work heavily armed and starting killing their collegues.
Actually, that too is a myth. The last Postal Employee involved in a shooting was 2006. That year there were three total, of all the shootings in the nation.

Previous to this, there were 5 Postal Employees who were involved in a shooting, these were in 1995-1997. Nearly ten years previous.

So the facts are, a small number seem to occur once every dozen years or so, when reality minus the media frenzy is factored in.

"Going Postal" may indeed have entered the lexicon, but without any substantial basis in fact.

"Road Rage" is also in the vernacular but thousands of auto related deaths happen by accident not by rage.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:08 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctdonath View Post
This, from the expired TJIC.com, always seems fitting for the thread's recurring topic and the invariable wallowing outrage it elicits:

---

Say that we had first contact with some super (economically) advanced aliens.

…and pretty soon they set up factories here.

…and I was offered a job in one of these factories, doing software engineering.

The pay is $400k/year.

The work week is 20 hours long.

The work environment is far better than I’m used to – great internal decoration, well tended plants, a zen-like water garden near my desk, massages every other day.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” started protesting, because I was being forced to work for less than a quarter of the prevailing wage in Alpha Centauri, and my work hours were twice as long as the legal norms in Alpha Centauri, and I didn’t have every mandatory benefits like “other other year off”, and “free AI musical composition mentoring”.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” wanted to make it illegal for my employer and I to contract with each other at mutually beneficial terms.

…then I would be rip **** that some elitist who had never visited me, or knew of my actual alternatives on the ground presumed to decide that I shouldn’t have this opportunity.

Which brings me to my core point: Chinese factory conditions may not be the exact cup of tea for a San Francisco graphic designer or a Connecticut non-profit ecologist grant writer … but they’re, by definition, better than all the other alternatives available to the Chinese workers (or the factories would find it impossible to staff up).

Butt out, clueless activists.
The only thing you can add to this would be a witty remark on imposing their ethical beliefs on you. Asian cultures also don't view suicide the same way the western (christian majority) cultures do. Other than that spot on.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:30 AM   #44
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Slavery? I'm assuming then you don't own any Apple products and if you do, you you won't be purchasing any in the future and will only buy electronics and other goods from companies that do not engage in "slavery".
It is virtual slavery. Actually, I'd rather be a well-treated slave than a poor factory worker in China. The question I've always had: What happened before we made stuff in China? Did all of those soon-to-be workers just starve?

----------

Bad news for Apple. I'll bet once they improve working conditions, they'll only get criticized more and more if they don't keep it up. Think about how unnoticed many other companies' faults go compared to how much attention Apple problems get. If Apple owned YouTube and pushed out that new glitchy, ugly layout Google made, their stock would be at $200 now. And Google has high expectations. I always expect changes to YouTube to be big improvements. It's just that Apple, for some reason, gets beaten for certain non-Mac-related faults.

Also, all of the environmental groups keep targeting Apple especially but also other tech companies. GreenPeace complained about cloud computing companies polluting (WTF? Why cloud computing?), and Nickelodeon and other TV stations frequently tell people to turn off their <1Wh smartphones when they're not in use. You know, a 100Wh lightbulb uses more electricity than a PC by a lot.

So Apple's going to take heat from the press until everything is made in the USA where it costs more to do anything. It really hurts to be #1 sometimes.

Last edited by Morshu9001; Dec 28, 2012 at 02:36 AM.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:43 AM   #45
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Hopefully this helps gets the ball rolling in an global-wide effort to curb exploitative and abusive business practices against workers. One of the biggest hurdles, IMO, is going to be changing a business leadership culture that currently puts near term profits and the bottom line above all else. As long as some companies see a competitive advantage in exploiting labor then other companies will feel pressured to follow suit in order to stay competitive.
I think it's a good idea for the USA to slash or kill corporate taxes to encourage companies to base themselves fully in the USA. It's unbalanced for all taxes to be paid in Luxembourg and all parts to be made in China while the companies benefit from the US consumers. Either that, or there needs to be an international trade agreement, but it would be very tough to get that past China.

Also, it's better for there to be less corporate taxes and better (government-forced) working conditions to compensate since the government is, pretty much by definition, inefficient when handling tax money.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 03:08 AM   #46
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i always wondered why Safari felt a bit snappier..
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 03:38 AM   #47
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and what about the retail stores ?

The pay & conditions in Apples Stores is also atrocious. Despite the "25%" increase back in June, which turned out for a lot to mean a lot less, around 15%, the pay is still very low, the working hours are long and the stress levels very high. When will Apple once and for all correct these issues ?
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:08 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ctdonath View Post
This, from the expired TJIC.com, always seems fitting for the thread's recurring topic and the invariable wallowing outrage it elicits:

---

Say that we had first contact with some super (economically) advanced aliens.

…and pretty soon they set up factories here.

…and I was offered a job in one of these factories, doing software engineering.

The pay is $400k/year.

The work week is 20 hours long.

The work environment is far better than I’m used to – great internal decoration, well tended plants, a zen-like water garden near my desk, massages every other day.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” started protesting, because I was being forced to work for less than a quarter of the prevailing wage in Alpha Centauri, and my work hours were twice as long as the legal norms in Alpha Centauri, and I didn’t have every mandatory benefits like “other other year off”, and “free AI musical composition mentoring”.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” wanted to make it illegal for my employer and I to contract with each other at mutually beneficial terms.

…then I would be rip **** that some elitist who had never visited me, or knew of my actual alternatives on the ground presumed to decide that I shouldn’t have this opportunity.

Which brings me to my core point: Chinese factory conditions may not be the exact cup of tea for a San Francisco graphic designer or a Connecticut non-profit ecologist grant writer … but they’re, by definition, better than all the other alternatives available to the Chinese workers (or the factories would find it impossible to staff up).

Butt out, clueless activists.
Good post. Easily the best analogy I have seen on this.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 05:47 AM   #49
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Good. In Europe it is all about retraces nowadays, sponsored by the right wing heads.

Microsoft and its minions did make billions on the back of poor Asians back then. No one was upset about the poor working conditions.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctdonath View Post
This, from the expired TJIC.com, always seems fitting for the thread's recurring topic and the invariable wallowing outrage it elicits:

---

Say that we had first contact with some super (economically) advanced aliens.

…and pretty soon they set up factories here.

…and I was offered a job in one of these factories, doing software engineering.

The pay is $400k/year.

The work week is 20 hours long.

The work environment is far better than I’m used to – great internal decoration, well tended plants, a zen-like water garden near my desk, massages every other day.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” started protesting, because I was being forced to work for less than a quarter of the prevailing wage in Alpha Centauri, and my work hours were twice as long as the legal norms in Alpha Centauri, and I didn’t have every mandatory benefits like “other other year off”, and “free AI musical composition mentoring”.

…and then left-wing alien “sentient being rights activists” wanted to make it illegal for my employer and I to contract with each other at mutually beneficial terms.

…then I would be rip **** that some elitist who had never visited me, or knew of my actual alternatives on the ground presumed to decide that I shouldn’t have this opportunity.

Which brings me to my core point: Chinese factory conditions may not be the exact cup of tea for a San Francisco graphic designer or a Connecticut non-profit ecologist grant writer … but they’re, by definition, better than all the other alternatives available to the Chinese workers (or the factories would find it impossible to staff up).

Butt out, clueless activists.


Stupid as stupid goes.

Do you know WHY the condition of USA and the West workers did get better in the beginning of the 20th century?

Go learn about the working conditions and working class struggle history in the West before starting writing stupid things.
The huge USA middle class was built by program sponsored by the government.


Tell me of a communist country were workers are protected?
- There no one!

Safety conditions ware implemented in the USA just to protect workers from the communist manifesto.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogee View Post
The pay & conditions in Apples Stores is also atrocious. Despite the "25%" increase back in June, which turned out for a lot to mean a lot less, around 15%, the pay is still very low, the working hours are long and the stress levels very high. When will Apple once and for all correct these issues ?
But Apple pays well better than The majority of american companies.
Low wages is prevalent in the USA, even the wages of the well educated have stagnated since the 90’s.

Only the Wall Street guys are making money, playing with yr money.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 09:16 AM   #50
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Here is what news companies show but people forget to realize, Apple and HP can only do so much to change the ways of Foxconn and Quanta since they do not own those companies and workplace rules in China.

Also, news companies love to have Apple in their title and go after Apple because it brings them viewers which in turn brings money. The writers will be biased and point out a negative towards a certain company meanwhile there might be plenty of positives (and vice versa). This writer seemed to have a good article though.
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