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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:17 PM   #226
LLIBSETAG
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Perfect Solution...

Design an iPhone case that makes it appear to be a Windows Phone with the tacky plastic romper room colors & voila... NOBODY will want to touch one of those & crime will drop in NYNY.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:22 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by imageWIS View Post
If you saw what is considered a 'small' soda at an AMC theater in NYC, you could see why it's not a bad idea. And before you start with some personal freedom nonsense, freedom, like everything else has a cost.
Personal freedom nonsense? Freedom has a cost in regard to how large your soft drink can be? Wow. You are not an American.

Last edited by Lark.Landon; Dec 31, 2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Grammatical error
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:52 PM   #228
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Who's handing out weapons? (besides Switzerland)
So do you think it's difficult to obtain a gun in NYC? How about the UK? Nope, if I want one, I will get one. Drugs like crack are illegal here in my city but I can easily go find it or be linked up with sources if I wanted it. Same with just about anything illegal. Now imagine if I was into that type of thing or crime. It's not making any more difficult for those with ill intent. Not at all.

I would also challenge you that a gun is the most effective way to kill someone. The recent CT Shooting.....the kid could have killed more with a simple home made bomb than firing off an AR15 like he did. I can also just as easily and more effectively kill you with a knife vs a gun. Want to rob a petrol station without a gun, give me a glass of gasoline and a lighter, splash the clerk and demand money. $5 says they give it to you.



Guns aren't assisting in murders. Again, do live in the UK where owning a gun is not allowed?....great....I'm a bad guy with a gun and I kick in your front door and have near ZERO to fear. Not so here in the states. Not even close.



US National Crime Victimization Survey, Department of Justice

The reason I noted the facts on the US as I did at the end of page 8 and my post is like you, I won't speak of the UK stats as the study has since I can only really stand for those in the US. I agree with lots of variables involved.

However, the stats on violent crime per capita by countries is pretty well known and available. I'll let you choose the research platform. However, just as with states here in the US with "tough" gun laws, disarming the citizens doesn't protect them. Nor will it in sure the governments will.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...frica-U-S.html

2010 Statistics on Rape in UK vs US per 100,000 (source UN Rape Statistics)

UK 28.8
US: 27.3

Again, hitting home for me and why I enjoy our laws vs yours, is I have a family of 4 and if anyone enters my home against my will / uninvited, I can shoot and kill them with zero issues. I do not have to retreat nor do they have to be armed. If they are in my home against my will, I am allowed by law to believe they have the intent to harm my family. In Ohio, it also now includes if I'm in my vehicle.

In the UK, you're sitting ducks and if you do pull a gun to defend your family, you'll go to jail for 5yrs. IMO, that's dumb. Wife and I are well armed and while wouldn't not go so far as to say we have no fear, I bet two armed home owners vs even multiple attackers stand a far better chance of being safe vs if we lived in the UK under similar circumstances.
Well said and I agree wholly.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 06:08 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Lark.Landon View Post
Personal freedom nonsense? Freedom has a cost in regard to how large your soft drink can be? Wow. You are not an American.
Your soft drink can be as large as you want it. There is no law against filling up your glass a 2nd time. Well, except the law of common sense and decency.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 06:19 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by pdqgp View Post

Again, hitting home for me and why I enjoy our laws vs yours, is I have a family of 4 and if anyone enters my home against my will / uninvited, I can shoot and kill them with zero issues. I do not have to retreat nor do they have to be armed. If they are in my home against my will, I am allowed by law to believe they have the intent to harm my family. In Ohio, it also now includes if I'm in my vehicle.

In the UK, you're sitting ducks and if you do pull a gun to defend your family, you'll go to jail for 5yrs. IMO, that's dumb. Wife and I are well armed and while wouldn't not go so far as to say we have no fear, I bet two armed home owners vs even multiple attackers stand a far better chance of being safe vs if we lived in the UK under similar circumstances.
So ... you believe that an iphone is worth taking a life? Okay.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 06:23 PM   #231
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So ... you believe that an iphone is worth taking a life? Okay.
Good thing even law enforcement in the US doesn't believe what this guy is spouting and won't hesitate to drop murder charges on him if he does go through with his Internet tough guy act IRL.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 06:36 PM   #232
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Good thing even law enforcement in the US doesn't believe what this guy is spouting and won't hesitate to drop murder charges on him if he does go through with his Internet tough guy act IRL.
He doesn't speak for all of us, thankfully.

This is why we have "Darwin Awards", just let nature weed them out.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 09:24 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Lark.Landon View Post
Personal freedom nonsense? Freedom has a cost in regard to how large your soft drink can be? Wow. You are not an American.
What a blanket and frankly, ignorant statement. Read the writings of Th. Jefferson, John Adams and James Madison and then you will understand where I gather my opinions from.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 10:42 PM   #234
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Good thing even law enforcement in the US doesn't believe what this guy is spouting and won't hesitate to drop murder charges on him if he does go through with his Internet tough guy act IRL.
Sorry, but in the US if you are robbed and the attacker has a weapon and I have a CCW permit, I am allowed to use deadly force. What the attacker is after whether doesn't matter. I've done my tours, no act needed thank you. Perhaps you haven't and if so, consider yourself lucky.

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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Your soft drink can be as large as you want it. There is no law against filling up your glass a 2nd time. Well, except the law of common sense and decency.
That's all the NYC law is about. It isn't about the BS Of keeping people healthy, it's about charging them more to drink the same amount. Again, more mainstream media BS.

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Originally Posted by Poisonivy326 View Post
So ... you believe that an iphone is worth taking a life? Okay.
The object of what an attacker is after isn't my point. The point is if someone were to attack me posing what I believe is an intent to harm aka pulling a knife, yes, I would shoot to kill and in my state of Ohio, would be home after filling out the report.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 10:53 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
It's a carrier based policy, has nothing to do with Apple (same as Apple can't block a stolen MacBook from getting on the Internet). BTW, your information is outdated, AT&T now blocks stolen handsets, like Sprint and Verizon does :

http://blogs.denverpost.com/techknow...n-phones/5331/
AWESOME! Thanks! My info was outdated!
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 11:22 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by pdqgp View Post
Who's handing out weapons? (besides Switzerland)
So do you think it's difficult to obtain a gun in NYC? How about the UK? Nope, if I want one, I will get one. Drugs like crack are illegal here in my city but I can easily go find it or be linked up with sources if I wanted it. Same with just about anything illegal. Now imagine if I was into that type of thing or crime. It's not making any more difficult for those with ill intent. Not at all.

I would also challenge you that a gun is the most effective way to kill someone. The recent CT Shooting.....the kid could have killed more with a simple home made bomb than firing off an AR15 like he did. I can also just as easily and more effectively kill you with a knife vs a gun. Want to rob a petrol station without a gun, give me a glass of gasoline and a lighter, splash the clerk and demand money. $5 says they give it to you.



Guns aren't assisting in murders. Again, do live in the UK where owning a gun is not allowed?....great....I'm a bad guy with a gun and I kick in your front door and have near ZERO to fear. Not so here in the states. Not even close.



US National Crime Victimization Survey, Department of Justice

The reason I noted the facts on the US as I did at the end of page 8 and my post is like you, I won't speak of the UK stats as the study has since I can only really stand for those in the US. I agree with lots of variables involved.

However, the stats on violent crime per capita by countries is pretty well known and available. I'll let you choose the research platform. However, just as with states here in the US with "tough" gun laws, disarming the citizens doesn't protect them. Nor will it in sure the governments will.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...frica-U-S.html

2010 Statistics on Rape in UK vs US per 100,000 (source UN Rape Statistics)

UK 28.8
US: 27.3

Again, hitting home for me and why I enjoy our laws vs yours, is I have a family of 4 and if anyone enters my home against my will / uninvited, I can shoot and kill them with zero issues. I do not have to retreat nor do they have to be armed. If they are in my home against my will, I am allowed by law to believe they have the intent to harm my family. In Ohio, it also now includes if I'm in my vehicle.

In the UK, you're sitting ducks and if you do pull a gun to defend your family, you'll go to jail for 5yrs. IMO, that's dumb. Wife and I are well armed and while wouldn't not go so far as to say we have no fear, I bet two armed home owners vs even multiple attackers stand a far better chance of being safe vs if we lived in the UK under similar circumstances.
If any of this were true then why do we have so few firearms deaths in the UK? Are we just inherently much nicer people?

"In the UK, you're sitting ducks"
And we are still alive and our children can go to school.

" I can also just as easily and more effectively kill you with a knife vs a gun"

Utter nonsense. You have to get near me first. And in terms of killing 20+ people, you have to get near them all first and deliver a fatal stab wound, or multiple wounds to enact the killing. The day before the CT shooting a guy went mad in China in a school with a knife - NOBODY died. There were some nasty injuries but NOBODY ded because he didn't have a gun!!

The history of warfare shows one irrefutable fact. The more technologically advanced the weapons used during war, the more deaths occur. Back when it was hand to hand combat, swords and knives, killings were fewer. Once you step into the C20th we have industrial scale killing machines available to us and so the number of deaths in war grew massively.

An automatic firearm is undeniably a much more efficient killing technology than a knife blade. If a nut job wants to go on a killing rampage he will kill more people with firearms than with a sharp blade. Simple.

The fact that you are self confessed armed and prepared to use it is a fundamental difference in your attitude and the culture of your nation as compared to the UK. Everyone in the US is armed and prepared to use it, THAT is the problem. In the UK we find such attitudes disgusting and unacceptable.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 11:33 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by pdqgp View Post
Myth.

Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:

Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%
(British Home Office – not a “pro-gun” organization by any means)

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^^ on the surface one would think that makes sense, but the statistics prove otherwise. There are thousands of ways to kill people besides guns. The weapon has nothing to do with killing someone, it's the person using it. The only thing going to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Not just a cliche either. It's no different than banning fertilizer to stop your subway/train bombings.

Here's a more relevant stat than just a phone.

Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks are completed, compared to 32% when the woman was unarmed. That's a fact taken right from our very own U.S. Department of Justice Law Enforcement Assistance Administration studying victimization in 26 of our largest cities.

My own wife was confronted and nearly attacked back in 2007 outside her law practice....she slapped and pushed the attacker away, drew her Ruger LC9 and as soon as he saw the red dot about the size of a quarter from her site on his chest, he ran like a scalded cat.

True story and yes, she is armed every time she leaves the house. I'll never forget getting the call as she raced home. I don't leave without my CCW either.

Rape Rates 1995–2003 (per 100,000 pop.) as per US National Crime Victimization Survey, Department of Justice

United Kingdom
1995 43.3 vs
2005 69.2
+59.8 increase

United States
1995 37.1 vs
2005 32.1
-13.5 decrease

No surprise in the US as more and more woman are authorized to carry a firearm.
"There are thousands of ways to kill people besides guns. The weapon has nothing to do with killing someone, it's the person using it."

So if I'm a nut job and I want to kill you but if all I have on me is some chewing gum and a packet of tissues then your life is just as at risk as if, instead, I was hiding in the trees armed with a high powered sniper rifle?

You asses the risk of death to you in those 2 scenarios as being equal? REALLY? Or do you just love guns?

It's significant that when you describe your wife's awful experience you say "drew her Ruger LC9" rather just "drew her gun" It shows the level of intimacy and obsession you have with firearms, you just love them. And guess what, that is the root of your problem in the USA, an unhealthy obsession with firearms.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 12:21 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by My1stMacWasLisa View Post
If any of this were true then why do we have so few firearms deaths in the UK? Are we just inherently much nicer people?

"In the UK, you're sitting ducks"
And we are still alive and our children can go to school.
So in the recent years your country hasn't had any school shootings eh? Interesting. So what number of shootings like this is tolerable for you all? Last I checked our schools per institution are quite safe and like your country, we are about to update our security measures to make sure they are even safer. Our methods however, won't be to strip the innocent of our rights. How about your family in your home or on the street? Oh, I forgot, your gov't doesn't feel you have a right to defend your home....

Quote:
Utter nonsense. You have to get near me first. And in terms of killing 20+ people, you have to get near them all first and deliver a fatal stab wound, or multiple wounds to enact the killing. The day before the CT shooting a guy went mad in China in a school with a knife - NOBODY died. There were some nasty injuries but NOBODY ded because he didn't have a gun!!
Look at your rape and assault stats. Good luck as an unarmed person fighting off a rapist with a knife if you're not. So while you're off enjoying such a "safe country" with no guns know that the United Kingdom has a total recorded crime rate per capita of approximately 85 per 1000 people; the United States of America records approximately 80. Ask the state of Texas here what happened to their violent assult and rapes when they introduced their Conceal & Carry Weapons law. It dropped 50%+ in one year. I wonder why......

Based on your thoughts, we should ban fertilizer here in the states to avoid train station bombings or better yet ban alcohol to eliminate Drunk Driving Deaths. Ask Mexico how making guns illegal has worked out for them. Excuse me while I blame my spoon for making me fat.....

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The history of warfare shows one irrefutable fact. The more technologically advanced the weapons used during war, the more deaths occur.
so by your definition we did pretty good in the Middle East over the last decade + not having lost nearly the lives we did back in the days of canons and muskets during our revolution.

Quote:
An automatic firearm is undeniably a much more efficient killing technology than a knife blade. If a nut job wants to go on a killing rampage he will kill more people with firearms than with a sharp blade. Simple.
I'll remember that the next time the US legalizes Automatic weapons You do know the difference in firing capabilities between an AR15 and a semi automatic pistol right?

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The fact that you are self confessed armed and prepared to use it is a fundamental difference in your attitude and the culture of your nation as compared to the UK.
Yes. In fact our differences is that our country was founded on kicking the control of your leaders the heck out of our business. I know that "freedom" very well. My attitude is that I don't need our gov't disarming the innocent to leave us victims to those that don't obey the laws.

Quote:
Everyone in the US is armed and prepared to use it, THAT is the problem. In the UK we find such attitudes disgusting and unacceptable.
the fact that you embrace your gov't controlling your freedom to protect yourself is your problem. here in the states we find the acceptance of such neutering of ones rights unacceptable as well. So much so it's in our Constitution that We The People will not let that happen.

----------

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Originally Posted by My1stMacWasLisa View Post
So if I'm a nut job and I want to kill you but if all I have on me is some chewing gum and a packet of tissues then your life is just as at risk as if, instead, I was hiding in the trees armed with a high powered sniper rifle?
You nailed the issue in your first sentence.....control the nut job not the means by which they execute the crime. Take away the gun and you simply remove one of countless ways said nut job will go to work. Again, mass shootings will turn into bombings. IMO, way easier to do anyway.

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You asses the risk of death to you in those 2 scenarios as being equal? REALLY? Or do you just love guns?
I asses the problem and understand that eliminating that is the answer, not removing the tools. The only thing that will do is change the tools used.

Quote:
It's significant that when you describe your wife's awful experience you say "drew her Ruger LC9" rather just "drew her gun" It shows the level of intimacy and obsession you have with firearms, you just love them.
The only significance is that I pointed out the particular weapon to draw attention to specifics since even based on your use of "automatic weapons" many involved in this debate don't understand even the basics of guns. Perhaps now you'll read up a bit and realize their significance in personal protection.

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And guess what, that is the root of your problem in the USA, an unhealthy obsession with firearms.
Sure....because the people involved in these crimes that you're hearing about are not to blame at all. They are just normal sane individuals mad crazy by a gun. Ask most Americans and I'll gladly take a higher crime rate involving the use of a gun vs a higher crime rate with the use of a knife when given the chance to even the odds and protect myself with a gun.

Believe what you want, if anyone breaks into my home or that of a gun owner, the odds are so dramatically in the odds of the home owner not being a "victim" vs in your nation, that it's not comparable. Perhaps you enjoy confrontations with people with knifes kicking in your door. I'll take being a few steps away from putting them down instead and not ever having to be in fear of being a victim.
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Last edited by pdqgp; Jan 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 03:48 PM   #239
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Believe what you want, if anyone breaks into my home or that of a gun owner, the odds are so dramatically in the odds of the home owner not being a "victim" vs in your nation, that it's not comparable. Perhaps you enjoy confrontations with people with knifes kicking in your door. I'll take being a few steps away from putting them down instead and not ever having to be in fear of being a victim.
Hmm. What about the person swiping your iphone is actually your nice uncle visiting for the holidays? What are you going to do, blow his brains out? Good luck with that nice long manslaughter charge. That's the problem I have with you gun-nuts. The fact that you're bragging on the forum that you're ready to kill someone over an iphone just shows you have no regard for life. I'm American too FYI and I will never allow a gun in my home. But if someone like you gets shot with your own stockpile of firearms, I won't feel sorry for you. You live by your guns, you die by them as well.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 03:59 PM   #240
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Ask most Americans and I'll gladly take a higher crime rate involving the use of a gun vs a higher crime rate with the use of a knife when given the chance to even the odds and protect myself with a gun
Yeah, American here, this dude doesn't speak for all of us. In fact, despite what they say I highly doubt he/she speaks for the majority. The number of gun owners in America is no where near half, and of those that own a gun not all have proper training, or fired one remotely recently.

That said, I wouldn't want all guns banned. I grew up near one of Americas larger sets of forests, and hunting (in season) was popular. The occasional bear, cougar, and coyote was also commonly seen and raising sheep growing up we had a gun. We didn't have it to keep our TV from being stolen by killing another human, we kept it to protect the lambs from coyotes.

But I'm all for much tighter gun control, and fewer automatic weapons. America is well past the point of being able to overthrow the government using force assuming the police/national guard/military are controlled entirely by said government. But if the government really screws up they won't have control of all those people with all those guns, now will they?
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 05:53 AM   #241
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Hmm. What about the person swiping your iphone is actually your nice uncle visiting for the holidays? What are you going to do, blow his brains out? Good luck with that nice long manslaughter charge.
So now you're trying to imply I would shoot a relative? Nice.

Quote:
That's the problem I have with you gun-nuts. The fact that you're bragging on the forum that you're ready to kill someone over an iphone just shows you have no regard for life. I'm American too FYI and I will never allow a gun in my home. But if someone like you gets shot with your own stockpile of firearms, I won't feel sorry for you. You live by your guns, you die by them as well.
Defending ones self when threatened has nothing to do with ones regard for life. It's common sense to defend yourself. You're welcome to simply play victim 100% of the time, that's your choice. In fact the problem you present for yourself is you have no options other than hope you aren't injured. Like you when instead you're stabbed or killed with your own regard for said scumbags life I won't feel sorry for you.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 06:13 AM   #242
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Yeah, American here, this dude doesn't speak for all of us. In fact, despite what they say I highly doubt he/she speaks for the majority. The number of gun owners in America is no where near half, and of those that own a gun not all have proper training, or fired one remotely recently.
Most surveys and stats show US households with at least one firearm is between 35% and 45%. There are no concrete stats as for good reason, most people will not register their guns. The US Gov't doesn't need to know. In the last two months however, there were nearly 5M background checks performed, a new record for both Nov and Dec. That's just for handgun purchases, not long rifles and those are those that chose to register them.

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That said, I wouldn't want all guns banned. I grew up near one of Americas larger sets of forests, and hunting (in season) was popular. The occasional bear, cougar, and coyote was also commonly seen and raising sheep growing up we had a gun. We didn't have it to keep our TV from being stolen by killing another human, we kept it to protect the lambs from coyotes.
Glad to hear your stance. Especially since the majority of those owning guns do so for sport and protection.

Quote:
But I'm all for much tighter gun control, and fewer automatic weapons. America is well past the point of being able to overthrow the government using force assuming the police/national guard/military are controlled entirely by said government. But if the government really screws up they won't have control of all those people with all those guns, now will they?
Not sure where the comment on automatic weapons comes from. The US doesn't permit them and hasn't since 1934. According to the FBI and BCS nationwide, the number of semi-auto's illegally converted to full auto's that have been confiscated is nearly near none.

Again, it's interesting to get everyone's perspective on guns and what's common or in many cases even allowed. It's also interesting what peoples understanding of long rifles such as the AR15 is. Most comments around them are completely incorrect; especially those made in the news not only around the weapons themselves, but their use in crimes.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 08:31 AM   #243
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One of the problems with living in New York. I live in Georgia. If I feel like taking public transportation, I'll feel free to use my iPhone or iPad without fear. As a matter of fact my DD10 will use her iPhone as well.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 08:39 AM   #244
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Greatest city in the world, man.

Not for me, but man...hard to argue that it's not amazing.
It is no greater or worse than most other large/dense cities. A couple weeks a year is all I can stand.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 09:18 AM   #245
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As a matter of fact my DD10 will use her iPhone as well.
You have a robot which can use an iPhone?
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 06:08 PM   #246
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You have a robot which can use an iPhone?
DD = Darling Daughter... It should probably say, highly spoiled daughter. The little smarty pants negotiated with me and I wound up giving her an iPhone at the age 8.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 09:52 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
Oh that will be fun. I bought my boyfriend an iPhone 5 for Christmas. Receipt is my name, apple care is under my name, Verizon account is under my name. He never bothered getting an apple id so iCloud is under one of mine and all his iTunes music and apps are under my Id.

So when I catch him with his pants around is ankles with another girl I can report his phone as stolen, lock it remotely, change the Verizon account password and my apple id password and screw him over.

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$20 and five minutes on iFixIt.com will get you the screwdrivers you need to open that puppy up and disconnect the battery.

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If its an AT&T there's big money selling them to the Asian resellers to send to China etc. the ones that don't have a connection at AT&T to white list the iPhone to be unlocked 'legally' will jailbreak and unlock. If they find one under warranty that is a little dinged up about three seconds in a microwave will short the power connectors and they will go in claiming they bought it from a friend and it doesn't turn on and then unlock that one
Have some experience in this huh?
__________________
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Every-time someone guesses my password, I have to change my dogs name. He's starting to develop a twitch !!!
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 01:14 PM   #248
Lark.Landon
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Originally Posted by imageWIS View Post
What a blanket and frankly, ignorant statement. Read the writings of Th. Jefferson, John Adams and James Madison and then you will understand where I gather my opinions from.
I'm pretty sure our founding fathers would laugh if told by law that they could not have a glass of ale larger than 16 ounces if they so desired. "I'm sorry sir, but by law we cannot serve glasses larger than <insert value>. " When the government starts making decisions for us, we begin losing our personal freedom to make our own decisions. That much should be apparent.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 06:34 PM   #249
imageWIS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lark.Landon View Post
I'm pretty sure our founding fathers would laugh if told by law that they could not have a glass of ale larger than 16 ounces if they so desired. "I'm sorry sir, but by law we cannot serve glasses larger than <insert value>. " When the government starts making decisions for us, we begin losing our personal freedom to make our own decisions. That much should be apparent.
Ah, yes the blanket "personal freedom" statement, the signpost that you don't have a nuanced argument.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:31 PM   #250
Lark.Landon
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Originally Posted by imageWIS View Post
Ah, yes the blanket "personal freedom" statement, the signpost that you don't have a nuanced argument.
No, it's not a blanket statement.

NYC limits the size of sodas that can be consumed/purchased.

Is that not a personal freedom?

What else would I refer to it as?

It is quite directly a limitation to personal freedom.

If you want to be taken seriously, actually say something of value. If you want to add to the discussion, do so. But attacking other people is not adding to the discussion. If you really do care about your fellow citizens, say something substantial.

Last edited by SandboxGeneral; Jan 5, 2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Clean up of insults
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