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Old Jan 2, 2013, 03:54 PM   #326
Squozen
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Originally Posted by atomwork View Post
All that piracy talk is kinda BS. in the 80/90ies we copied music and games too. Remember the old AMIGA days. You did purchased your music when you where a fan, otherwise copied a CD from a friend. Nothing changed.
I do remember the Amiga days. I also remember when the platform died due to piracy. Pay up or shut up.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 04:04 PM   #327
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I do remember the Amiga days. I also remember when the platform died due to piracy. Pay up or shut up.
The Amiga died due to Commodore mismanaging it. Piracy was probably even more prevalent then than it is today. All it took was a quick visit to the local computer shop to buy a pack of floppies, maybe spending a couple of minutes Xeroxing the manual, and you were set. Before you know it, you were passing out the latest and greatest game at school. Yet despite that, the PC and Mac still thrived.

I will say that piracy has taken down a few software companies before, but I don't think it's been responsible for the death of an entire platform.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 04:22 PM   #328
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Also cheap prices does not mean more money in the long run. Yeah you might get more sells but if the market is not big enough more sells does not mean more profit. Plus you have other increased cost dealing with it (support cost go up. Time lost dealing with emails from extra install plus if you have server load that increase as well)

If it is a smaller market for example I sell the app for $10. If dropping it to 1 dollar I might get 5 sells for ever 1 I was getting at $10. So I get less revenue and my other cost go up. It really depends on the market. Nicht markets are just that. They are smaller so you need to have your cost higher.
I understand that the high volume approach doesn't work well in every single market. In a niche market i would definitely stick to a higher price point, however most of the apps in the app store, Hollywood movies/music tend to be catered for a real broad market so that wouldn't be the case here.

As it is, most of the indie developers are doing way better now than they were 5 years ago and I hardly read any piracy rants from their part. The big companies are the ones doing most of the fuss over how bad piracy is, and trying to guilt people into stop doing it, just so they can get even richer.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 04:36 PM   #329
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...and I hardly read any piracy rants from their part. The big companies are the ones doing most of the fuss over how bad piracy is, and trying to guilt people into stop doing it, just so they can get even richer.
I think it's because most of them accept as a way of life when it comes to releasing any sofwtare. They know that no matter what you do, someone somewhere is going to pirate what you've made. It's common knowledge, sad as that is.

They'll comment and complain about it on occasion, though most don't layer on the hyperbole like the big publishers do.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 04:45 PM   #330
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I understand that the high volume approach doesn't work well in every single market. In a niche market i would definitely stick to a higher price point, however most of the apps in the app store, Hollywood movies/music tend to be catered for a real broad market so that wouldn't be the case here.

As it is, most of the indie developers are doing way better now than they were 5 years ago and I hardly read any piracy rants from their part. The big companies are the ones doing most of the fuss over how bad piracy is, and trying to guilt people into stop doing it, just so they can get even richer.
Read what Gimzotoy wrote. It sums everything up right there.
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Originally Posted by Gimzotoy View Post
As an iPhone developer myself, I generally disliked Installous. When my first game launched back in late 2009/early 2010, I had 50,000 users my first weekend... but just 45 sales. Unfortunately, I'm not joking. I got disillusioned with the process and never made another app. I finally let my dev profile expire last month. By the end of its run, my game's user base was about 5% paid, 95% pirated. Perhaps most painful were the stats I was getting back: The average time the pirated versions were played was well over 2 hours (nearly as high as the paid average of 2.5 hours), and my game was priced at $.99. When someone gets a couple hours of enjoyment out of a game you spent months developing and won't give you a measly dollar, it hurts.

On the other hand, I've benefited from Installous at least once. I was hesitant to pay $20 for a niche app that appeared to do what I needed, but it wasn't obvious. The developer was very slow to respond, and it had no trial version. With Installous I found that app did what I needed, so I purchased it in the store. Everyone was happy.

So if anything, I have mixed feelings. I suspect the loss of this will reduce the demand for jailbreaking, which I enjoy for other reasons (BiteSMS is perhaps the single greatest app available for the iPhone, IMO). That's a bad thing.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 04:49 PM   #331
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Pirating only hurts everyone. Sure the software might cost you 600$, but think of all the work that went and goes into that software. Also getting a "free" game that would cost .99 is silly, its only 99c.. All the devs need food too :c
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 05:32 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Read what Gimzotoy wrote. It sums everything up right there.
And just to add, I was originally super excited about all the promise that my high pirated copy count would bring a bunch of exposure. I was the top app on the front page of Installous for several days. I figured most of these guys wouldn't be buying my game no matter what I did, but that they may lead to more legitimate sales. Unfortunately I was wrong. I forget the exact numbers, but something like less than one tenth of one percent of all devices using a pirated copy eventually went on to use a paid copy.

What did induce sales was the introduction of a limited Free version, but even that got killed with bad reviews when it "only" provided about 30 minutes or so of play time (an unrelated matter to this discussion). So any future devs reading this, go to launch with a free trial version.

While I'll admit I wasn't providing anything groundbreaking, I got favorable reviews from TouchArcade and general praise considering I was just one guy working in my free time, so the thing wasn't outright crap, either.

I think this may be only the second time I've shared anything regarding my sales or piracy numbers anywhere. So while he may not hear independent developers complaining, it may not be because it's not hurting them. Or it may be that we now have two classes of indie developers: those that are a few guys working in a very small team, and those who are venture capital-funded (or otherwise well-funded), but not owned by a major studio or software house. The latter are making a killing on the App Store right now.

Last edited by Gizmotoy; Jan 2, 2013 at 05:38 PM.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 05:43 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Gimzotoy View Post
What did induce sales was the introduction of a limited Free version, but even that got killed with bad reviews when it "only" provided about 30 minutes or so of play time (an unrelated matter to this discussion). So any future devs reading this, go to launch with a free trial version.
I always appreciate a dev who puts out a demo. Apple's lack of a proper refund policy make demos even more important. As to the idiots who rate an app down for something other than how the app works... I can't be the only one who generally ignores the star ratings.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 06:07 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimzotoy View Post
As an iPhone developer myself, I generally disliked Installous. When my first game launched back in late 2009/early 2010, I had 50,000 users my first weekend... but just 45 sales. Unfortunately, I'm not joking. I got disillusioned with the process and never made another app. I finally let my dev profile expire last month. By the end of its run, my game's user base was about 5% paid, 95% pirated. Perhaps most painful were the stats I was getting back: The average time the pirated versions were played was well over 2 hours (nearly as high as the paid average of 2.5 hours), and my game was priced at $.99. When someone gets a couple hours of enjoyment out of a game you spent months developing and won't give you a measly dollar, it hurts.

On the other hand, I've benefited from Installous at least once. I was hesitant to pay $20 for a niche app that appeared to do what I needed, but it wasn't obvious. The developer was very slow to respond, and it had no trial version. With Installous I found that app did what I needed, so I purchased it in the store. Everyone was happy.

So if anything, I have mixed feelings. I suspect the loss of this will reduce the demand for jailbreaking, which I enjoy for other reasons (BiteSMS is perhaps the single greatest app available for the iPhone, IMO). That's a bad thing.
This interests me. Hypothetically speaking if you were the only person using that app, unless the developer can track when a pirated copy is converted to a sale, then he could say he had a 50% piracy rate. When in fact 50% of his pirates were just checking it out
To be brutally honest I did the same with TomTom. Tried with Installous, deleted, bought.

The amount of time played is interesting though, a much more useful statistic than install base. I wonder if that's decreased lately from how difficult jailbreaking is nowadays, and how it stands on Android (which has no such protection). Personally I buy all Android apps even though it would be really really easy to pirate them.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 07:16 PM   #335
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Long-time jailbreak user here, and I have never once downloaded a pirated app. It was all about customization for me.

I do think it is comical when developers believe their app that has been pirated equals to what "should" be a sale. Just because someone downloaded your app for free, does not mean that it would have sold.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 07:23 PM   #336
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Just read an article saying that you can now pirate apps even without jailbreaking but that could lead to malware and people taking your info etc.
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Old Jan 2, 2013, 08:01 PM   #337
rdlink
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Originally Posted by freeskier989 View Post
Thief by whose standards? Yours? America but not Europe? Really, grow up.
Fully grown here, Sonny. Stealing someone's labor/ideas/creativity for your own personal desires is thievery no matter where you are, be it the US, Europe, Asia or the moon. You can rationalize all you want, but if you pirate music, software, media, etc., you are a thief.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 05:16 AM   #338
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It's hilarious how some here gawk at the idea of pirated apps yet are OK with illegally downloaded music.

Is Photoshop on your PC legit? Did you pay for it?
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 05:39 AM   #339
Renzatic
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Fully grown here, Sonny. Stealing someone's labor/ideas/creativity for your own personal desires is thievery no matter where you are, be it the US, Europe, Asia or the moon. You can rationalize all you want, but if you pirate music, software, media, etc., you are a thief.
Software I'll give you. There's usually only one channel you can gain access to software, and that's paying for it.

Media and music? The lines blur.

Say I usually watch a TV show. For some reason, I forget to set my Tivo to record it (and skip the commercials for me), so I download that episode, watch it, and delete it. Am I a thief?

If you believe so, explain to me how the two situations differ.

Or what about music? It's a little more cut and dry, but still nebulous. Am I more a thief for downloading a song than I would be taping one off the radio back in the day (outdated references FTW). What about listening to it on Youtube? That's copyright infringement.

Now there are situations where it can be construed into thievery. Like downloading tons and tons of movies, TV shows, music, ect. and keeping an archive for them. But there are some situations where calling someone a thief for copyright infringement is a little too harsh. It's not legal, but it's not in the deep dark black section of the great morality slider, either. More in the cheapish grey area than anything.

There's a reason the law calls it copyright infringement, and not theft.

Last edited by Renzatic; Jan 3, 2013 at 05:47 AM.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 05:48 AM   #340
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It's hilarious how some here gawk at the idea of pirated apps yet are OK with illegally downloaded music.

Is Photoshop on your PC legit? Did you pay for it?
Yes..work paid

Not all pirating is about money folks, I know it tough to believe but it really is the case.

I like to pirate because I like the challenge or I don't like the dev. I will continue my little personal war with RIAA and MPAA until they're gone or I get bored.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 05:53 AM   #341
Compile 'em all
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Yes..work paid

Not all pirating is about money folks, I know it tough to believe but it really is the case.

I like to pirate because I like the challenge or I don't like the dev. I will continue my little personal war with RIAA and MPAA until they're gone or I get bored.
You are in the minority of crackers. Thousands and thousands of automated cracking of 99-cents games is neither personal nor challenging.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 06:11 AM   #342
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You are in the minority of crackers. Thousands and thousands of automated cracking of 99-cents games is neither personal nor challenging.
Thats one of the reasons I don't play on iDevices. This thread though has devolved into general pirating not iPirating.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 08:58 AM   #343
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This interests me. Hypothetically speaking if you were the only person using that app, unless the developer can track when a pirated copy is converted to a sale, then he could say he had a 50% piracy rate. When in fact 50% of his pirates were just checking it out
To be brutally honest I did the same with TomTom. Tried with Installous, deleted, bought.

The amount of time played is interesting though, a much more useful statistic than install base. I wonder if that's decreased lately from how difficult jailbreaking is nowadays, and how it stands on Android (which has no such protection). Personally I buy all Android apps even though it would be really really easy to pirate them.
Well, this goes back well before the iOS 6 days when devs were permitted (Apple actually recommended it for awhile in the 2.0 - 3.0 days) to use the UDID. There are easy methods of detection for pirated copies of an app. I had a variable in my code that got stored if an app ever started on a device as a pirated copy, which I had Flurry pick up. I did the same for the paid copies. I could then use Flurry to see if any devices ever had both of those bits set*. Those were the sales made possible by piracy. It's not 100% effective because what if someone pirated it on their iPhone 3G, but bought it when they got a new 3GS, for example, but they should be reasonably accurate.

Your other questions are good, but I don't really know the answer to them. My information's a bit stale now.

* As a note, Flurry did not provide the UDIDs to devs, so I couldn't actually see your UDID. I just got generic per-device data back, and sorted by those two fields.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 10:26 PM   #344
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On the other hand, I've benefited from Installous at least once. I was hesitant to pay $20 for a niche app that appeared to do what I needed, but it wasn't obvious. The developer was very slow to respond, and it had no trial version. With Installous I found that app did what I needed, so I purchased it in the store. Everyone was happy.
If I could attach sparkles and glitter to this post, I would. Bolded, underlined, italicized and everything else because this is the ONE area I've always thought Google Play has an upper-hand over Apple.

Google lets you purchase an app and use it for a very brief trial period. If you don't like it, you can undo the purchase and your account is refunded. This only works 1 time for any specific app.

It's a real (valid) way to test a developer's app/claims and see if you find it useful. I bet all developers could stand to benefit from this, and definitely the customer base.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 03:51 PM   #345
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Then don't buy it. It's not like your life depends on owning any of these apps. Stealing is stealing. While i agree that the ability to demo is important, and some app developers do put in a time limiter that can be disabled through in app purchase, it's no way an excuse to say I'll steal it first and then maybe buy it after.
Did you actually read my post before replying to it? I said f--k all about demo.

I used Installous to find apps that were originally free or for which I have already paid. The versions of nearly everything in the App Store require iOS 4.x or later. The App Store has no way of filtering a search to show only apps that will run on 3.x, which makes trying to find apps that will run on old devices an endlessly frustrating time suck.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:53 PM   #346
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Not even remotely equivalent ....

"Identity theft" may not meet the strict definition of theft (as in physical property being removed from where its rightful owner last put it), but it's much more akin to theft than software piracy is.

There's no reason to copy someone else's identity unless the person doing it plans to pose as that individual for the purpose of defrauding others, or directly withdrawing funds owned by the original person.

If the person committing identity theft was really doing the same thing people do when they "pirate" software? It would generally never even be noticed and nobody would have much reason to care. (It would amount to someone copying other people's identities just for the challenge or thrill of doing it, and/or because they got some sort of weird personal entertainment out of having the information sitting around their place to look at now and then.)


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I'm going to copy your identity and use it for my own purposes
I'm sure you don't mind, I'm only copying you
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 01:21 AM   #347
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When apple adds the ability to change brightness as easily as volume, and gives me the option to not slide to unlock my ipad, then I might be willing to give up jailbreaking. But until they build a device besides the ipad that gets over 4 hours battery life with the brightness above 25%, and offer those of us who feel hitting the home button or power button should be enough to turn on an $800 device. I for one will continue to jailbreak. Quit treating your supporters like infants.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 02:14 AM   #348
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I do remember the Amiga days. I also remember when the platform died due to piracy. Pay up or shut up.
The Amiga did not die due to piracy. It boomed due to it as it went from a media/design/office marketed machine to a reasonably powered games system.

I owned an Amiga 500, 500+, 600, and finally a 1200 over a near 6 year period.

The rise of games consoles, namely the arrival of the first PlayStation and the SEGA Saturn with their 3D games, killed off both the Amiga and the Atari ST. Until thos systems, the Amiga could handle 90% of what the Mega Drive and SNES could in regards to 2D sprite based gaming.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 12:31 PM   #349
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There should be a reasonable (at least 14 day) trial period on EVERY app in the app store, this would eliminate any possible moral justification for piracy out there.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 11:00 AM   #350
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If I could attach sparkles and glitter to this post, I would. Bolded, underlined, italicized and everything else because this is the ONE area I've always thought Google Play has an upper-hand over Apple.

Google lets you purchase an app and use it for a very brief trial period. If you don't like it, you can undo the purchase and your account is refunded. This only works 1 time for any specific app.

It's a real (valid) way to test a developer's app/claims and see if you find it useful. I bet all developers could stand to benefit from this, and definitely the customer base.
I think most developers would be behind it as well. Maintaining a separate paid and free version was a pain in my ass. If you do it right it's pretty minor to build your code with different compiler flags for each version, but you still have to do every build twice, upload to Apple twice, manage version change descriptions twice, and so on.

Developers have been asking for Apple to officially support trial versions for years. At this point I have to assume it's either a patent minefield they can't figure out how to get around, or Apple thinks it's a bad idea and will never implement it.
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