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Old Feb 27, 2013, 11:48 AM   #1
thehustleman
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I thought the total cost of ownership was lower....

First off, I'm gonna clarify that this IS NOT a troll post (you don't spend over 2k just to troll!) but a legitimate question.

Isn't the total cost of ownership supposed to be lower on a mac overall as opposed to windows?


It certainly isn't seeming that way

imac - 2,000
wireless keyboard with keypad (since apple neglected to include it) - 60
external DVD drive - 50 (even though my wifes macbook pro has one)
External Hard Drive (since I can't just add a second one) - 120
apple care - 169



I built my last computer and it ran me ~500 and that computer still runs great, I just REALLY wanted a mac for my new PC.


Overall I'm not regretting my mac purchase, but just wondering why things have to be so expensive and why should I have to purchase extra things to make up for what apple omitted.

The experience so far has been great, I haven't had not one single crash, no freezing, zero issues whatsoever - I know it's still new but still...


the trackpad is a GODSEND! I don't think I will EVER want to use a mouse ever again.

parallels is amazing, I love that concept, haven't tried boot camp yet (don't know how) but I guess I will eventually.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 11:58 AM   #2
J. Rab
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Hey,

I think whenever it is mentioned that the Mac's total cost of ownership is low they are referring to a longer period of time. Basically the initial investment is quite high, but the fact that it's a solid system that wont need a replacement machine in over 5 years helps it's "cost effective" argument. In my experience Windows machines dont last nearly as long as macs do -- my MBP i bought in december of 2010 is rock solid after almost three years -- if it was a windows laptop i doubt it'd be running as smoothly.

So yeah, in the short run a Mac will be super costly, but in the long run you end up paying less (cash and headaches lol). Just my two cents.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 11:59 AM   #3
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My BIL bought a 20 inch iMac mid 2007 for 799. He just sold it for 300 5.5 years later. He could have kept on running it but lusted after a new 27inch iMac. OK, he bought a Magic Trackpad and Magic Mouse, but he still has them. Cost of ownership 499 for 5.5 years. That's pretty good.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:14 PM   #4
paulrbeers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
First off, I'm gonna clarify that this IS NOT a troll post (you don't spend over 2k just to troll!) but a legitimate question.

Isn't the total cost of ownership supposed to be lower on a mac overall as opposed to windows?


It certainly isn't seeming that way

imac - 2,000
wireless keyboard with keypad (since apple neglected to include it) - 60
external DVD drive - 50 (even though my wifes macbook pro has one)
External Hard Drive (since I can't just add a second one) - 120
apple care - 169
.

Now let's take a look also at your bill of sale here:

1. Wireless keyboard with keypad.... That's a cost you chose to add. I'm sure you had your choice of wired keyboard w/ keypad or wireless without correct? When I was a PC user, I was constantly adding peripherals, so that's really no different than in PC land. Most of the keyboards that come with PC's aren't what I would want (especially not a $500 cheap PC).
2. $50 is quite high. I see them going for 20-30 on Newegg. Frankly for me other than ripping DVD's occassionally I never use one so for me this would have been a $0 cost and for most users.
3. External hard drive.... Have you really paid attention to the cost of Externals vs Internal Bare drives: They are usually the same cost or very close. So if you wanted to add additional storage to a PC you would still have to shell out at least $100 right?!?!
4. AppleCare - This is completely optional. I don't buy it. I bought it once never used it. I certainly wouldn't bother with a desktop machine. But that's just my .02 worth.

So I'll give you the external drive of + $50 and the maybe $20 difference between an external and internal drive so your real "extra" cost is $70 over what you would have done when purchasing a PC.

Also, you will need to show me where you can get a $500 PC where you also get a 27" 1440P display. Considering even the cheapest of Korean Knock Offs will run you at least $400... So you are really looking at $900 to even get a marginally comparative PC.

Now, in 3-4 years when you go to sell that Mac, you will probably still get 700-800 back compared to virtually nothing for a 3-4 year old PC. That still does leave about $300 in difference between your purchase and final sale price. Is it worth it? To me yes. When my wife was running an HP notebook, I had to reinstall the OS about every 6 months due to some website she inadvertently went to (even with virus protection+ installed). Now that she is on a Mac, I haven't had to reinstall the OS once in the almost year and a half she has been on one. To me that is worth $300. I know what I make an hour, and I am well into the savings by not having to reinstall an OS and all her apps 3 times in the last year and a half (I would have probably spent at least 12 hours doing so).

Again, it's all relative. Another advantage Macs used to have was OS updates. Apple charges $29 and Microsoft charged like $200. With Windows 8 now at $50 that advantage has lessened so we can't really use that as a "savings" anymore.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:19 PM   #5
utekineir
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By any chance did the total cost of ownership claim come from someone pouring your coffee?
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:19 PM   #6
HenryDJP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
Isn't the total cost of ownership supposed to be lower on a mac overall as opposed to windows?


It certainly isn't seeming that way

imac - 2,000
wireless keyboard with keypad (since apple neglected to include it) - 60
That was your choice. The iMac comes with a keyboard and mouse/trackpad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post

external DVD drive - 50 (even though my wifes macbook pro has one)
Again, your choice, but I wouldn't think $50 is worth mentioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post

External Hard Drive (since I can't just add a second one) - 120
apple care - 169
Both of those are entirely your choice and an external hard drive can be bought many sizes and prices. Plus I have to wonder how many people (aside from the very average Joe) truly buy extended warranties on their Windows machines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post

I built my last computer and it ran me ~500 and that computer still runs great, I just REALLY wanted a mac for my new PC.


The experience so far has been great, I haven't had not one single crash, no freezing, zero issues whatsoever - I know it's still new but still...
the trackpad is a GODSEND! I don't think I will EVER want to use a mouse ever again.
parallels is amazing, I love that concept, haven't tried boot camp yet (don't know how) but I guess I will eventually.
You didn't factor in any software, design, build quality, screen quality or built-in support.
Macs come with the iLife suite and whether or not it's dated it's still the best in it's class and you don't get that out of the box with a Windows machine.
When you buy a Mac, you're buying "Apple". This means you go to Apple for support and they know exactly what to do since there are no OEM's to deal with. There's really no synergy between Windows and the PC it comes on installed on.
Most $500 Windows machines are not built as well as the iMac or come with a screen as high-end as the iMac.

Also your Windows machine, along with the others on the market are subsidized with trial software. You really can't get rid completely of it unless you install your own version of Windows. The average Joe won't do this.

There are so many factors involved. You're just looking at what you paid, rather than what you're getting. I would think based on all the good things you've said so far that you'd see that you got an amazing value, plus total cost of ownership is measured by lifetime, not upfront cost.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:24 PM   #7
gzigoris
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It never occured to me to check on total cost of ownership I just wanted an iMac. The first Windows PC I ever bought cost me $2500.00 for PC and Printer. A 286 with lots of problems. Every one after that I built myself. The Company I worked for trained me on the first IBM machines. Yo it was fun then. Now I am 73 and don't want to go through the hassle of building another one.

Thought that the iMac would be cool and something new to learn in my old age. Outside of the killer Mac that I ordered I have on top of that purchased A Blueray reader/writer, a backup HDD,More memory, Cool charger for the trackpad and misc cables. I am ready when beautiful machine gets here from China(?). Also purchased CS6 and some downloadable Blueray Software.

Truth being I just didn't want to build another PC and hell no I was not going to Windows 8. I love my Apple stuff and got my whole family on iPhones and iPads now. You can call me FANBOY,ha ha.

George so proud to be here.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:34 PM   #8
bflowers
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Since my mac Desktops typically have lasted me 5-10 years, and my laptops have lasted 4-6 years, I would say that I get a much better average cost over time than my father, who seems to need a new windows pc every 2-3 years.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:46 PM   #9
gCloud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Rab View Post
Hey,

I think whenever it is mentioned that the Mac's total cost of ownership is low they are referring to a longer period of time. Basically the initial investment is quite high, but the fact that it's a solid system that wont need a replacement machine in over 5 years helps it's "cost effective" argument. In my experience Windows machines dont last nearly as long as macs do -- my MBP i bought in december of 2010 is rock solid after almost three years -- if it was a windows laptop i doubt it'd be running as smoothly.

So yeah, in the short run a Mac will be super costly, but in the long run you end up paying less (cash and headaches lol). Just my two cents.
December 2010 till now is a little over 2 years not almost three years.

even if the iMac lasts 5 years the OP could get a new $500 windows box every year of the 5 for the same money.
Lets face it, we have all fallen for the apple marketing machine, we want apple stuff cause they look cool and are fun. I have Macs at home, I run windows VMs on them for anything work related, OSX is for consumption windows is for production. I feel that windows even looks better running on a Mac. As I said fallen for the apple marketing monster. if it is more compubang for your buck you are after don't go for apple.

I work in data centres and have been for 20 years, I never ever seen an apple server in a data centre (I do networks and firewalls not servers but I know/see what gets installed and what talks to what), I have worked at least three dozen virtualised data centres in the last 5 years, not one offered OSX VM guests, it is mostly windows or linux, the data centres are for IT giants who want to make money, reduces cost of ownership is their game, they never go apple.

<<sent from a Mac>>
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 12:53 PM   #10
NMF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
Isn't the total cost of ownership supposed to be lower on a mac overall as opposed to windows?
Um. No?

You get what you pay for.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:06 PM   #11
CreativeOutlaw
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Less headaches/resell value/software

I think people have previously gone into plenty of detail about the resell value being higher, and overall experience being smoother and with less headaches in general than a PC for the average user, but another big value to me is the software that's included. iPhoto and iMovie alone are way better than any out of the box offering on a PC for their respective purposes (and many paid programs as well) Garageband is the icing on the cake if getting a quick musical idea down is something you like to do. I've used tons of other programs, pro tools, sonar, audacity, sony acid (which is the closest, I've found) and nothing comes close in learning curve to actually get started recording out of the box. Time machine is a great/easy to setup backup program that I also think is top in it's class.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:15 PM   #12
gnasher729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
I built my last computer and it ran me ~500 and that computer still runs great, I just REALLY wanted a mac for my new PC.
The ~500 didn't include a 27" monitor with 2560 x 1440 pixel resolution, did it?

When you compare prices, you must compare comparable prices. For example, when the 15" Retina MBP was released, I went to the Dell website and looked for something comparable. That was quad core, 8 or 16 GB RAM, SSD drive, high resolution monitor. The cheapest Dell laptop with comparable processor, RAM and SSD drive weighed 7 pound, didn't specify how long the battery would last, had 1920 x 1200 resolution, and cost a tiny bit more than the Retina MBP. You will find the same if you buy a PC that is actually _comparable_ to that iMac.

And total cost of ownership is not the purchase price. (Obviously not, because then they would call it "purchase price", not "total cost of ownership"). TCO is everything you pay to use that computer for a certain number of years. Antivirus software, paying people to fix it, loss of time because of problems, money coming back to you when you sell a used computer. Everything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gCloud View Post
Lets face it, ...
"Let's face it", "You must admit", "Everyone knows", are the things that people say when they pretend to have an argument, and want to present something as a fact that isn't.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:17 PM   #13
J. Rab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gCloud View Post
December 2010 till now is a little over 2 years not almost three years.

even if the iMac lasts 5 years the OP could get a new $500 windows box every year of the 5 for the same money.
Lets face it, we have all fallen for the apple marketing machine, we want apple stuff cause they look cool and are fun. I have Macs at home, I run windows VMs on them for anything work related, OSX is for consumption windows is for production. I feel that windows even looks better running on a Mac. As I said fallen for the apple marketing monster. if it is more compubang for your buck you are after don't go for apple.

I work in data centres and have been for 20 years, I never ever seen an apple server in a data centre (I do networks and firewalls not servers but I know/see what gets installed and what talks to what), I have worked at least three dozen virtualised data centres in the last 5 years, not one offered OSX VM guests, it is mostly windows or linux, the data centres are for IT giants who want to make money, reduces cost of ownership is their game, they never go apple.

<<sent from a Mac>>
a few things:

1. My bad on the rounding -- I was rounding up (and something tells me by december of this year this MBP will still be around).

2. I dont know about you, but I'd rather have a solid system for five years than have to keep going out and buying "the next greatest thing" and having to port my data over to new machines constantly. So yeah I'd rather pay "in advance" and keep my data from having to to be pushed around.

3. I prefer the Mac OS over windows -- I've used windows since I started computing in the 90's (and still do due to requirements beyond my control) -- nothing comes close to how fluid OSX is.

4. And it's obvious the OP was referring to a consumer purchase -- not a business level one. So bringing up why windows is better than apple in the business / server side is moot.

And not all of us are "fooled" by apple -- we make use of the tools we research about and end up purchasing.

Last edited by J. Rab; Feb 27, 2013 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Typo.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:24 PM   #14
thehustleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulrbeers View Post
Now let's take a look also at your bill of sale here:

1. Wireless keyboard with keypad.... That's a cost you chose to add. I'm sure you had your choice of wired keyboard w/ keypad or wireless without correct? When I was a PC user, I was constantly adding peripherals, so that's really no different than in PC land. Most of the keyboards that come with PC's aren't what I would want (especially not a $500 cheap PC).
2. $50 is quite high. I see them going for 20-30 on Newegg. Frankly for me other than ripping DVD's occassionally I never use one so for me this would have been a $0 cost and for most users.
3. External hard drive.... Have you really paid attention to the cost of Externals vs Internal Bare drives: They are usually the same cost or very close. So if you wanted to add additional storage to a PC you would still have to shell out at least $100 right?!?!
4. AppleCare - This is completely optional. I don't buy it. I bought it once never used it. I certainly wouldn't bother with a desktop machine. But that's just my .02 worth.

So I'll give you the external drive of + $50 and the maybe $20 difference between an external and internal drive so your real "extra" cost is $70 over what you would have done when purchasing a PC.

Also, you will need to show me where you can get a $500 PC where you also get a 27" 1440P display. Considering even the cheapest of Korean Knock Offs will run you at least $400... So you are really looking at $900 to even get a marginally comparative PC.

Now, in 3-4 years when you go to sell that Mac, you will probably still get 700-800 back compared to virtually nothing for a 3-4 year old PC. That still does leave about $300 in difference between your purchase and final sale price. Is it worth it? To me yes. When my wife was running an HP notebook, I had to reinstall the OS about every 6 months due to some website she inadvertently went to (even with virus protection+ installed). Now that she is on a Mac, I haven't had to reinstall the OS once in the almost year and a half she has been on one. To me that is worth $300. I know what I make an hour, and I am well into the savings by not having to reinstall an OS and all her apps 3 times in the last year and a half (I would have probably spent at least 12 hours doing so).

Again, it's all relative. Another advantage Macs used to have was OS updates. Apple charges $29 and Microsoft charged like $200. With Windows 8 now at $50 that advantage has lessened so we can't really use that as a "savings" anymore.
Um you do realize that PC stands for personal computer right? Why are you acting as if a mac isn't a pc?


But the things I listed are things I needed to get what I had with my windows pc.

I shouldn't have had to buy another keyboard, the one that came with the system should have had the keypad on it.

As for dvd drives, i didn't want just some cheap drive, I needed to have something that would last so I got a great burner on the way. And yes its a choice but a needed choice since apple neglected to include something that should have been included.

But I see your point with the display and a few other things.

I still have a windows pc that I built back in 2010 that's still going strong. Thinking about maxing out the memory to 16gb though
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:29 PM   #15
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Without meaning to sounding really rude here. Dude, how can you complain about "total cost of ownership" after willingly spending 4x more than you did on your last computer? Especially considering you can get Macs for much less.

It sounds like you moved from an adequately specc'd home made base unit to Apples top of the range offering of it's all in one computer. It would be like moving from a tiny 2 door japanese car to a Jeep and then complaining about the associated price hike and running costs. As the other posts in this thread have already said; you do get what you pay for.

You have a fantastic computer and have obviously payed top dollar for it. Just enjoy it and don't worry about the cost
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:34 PM   #16
gCloud
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ok guys if you say so.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
Isn't the total cost of ownership supposed to be lower on a mac overall as opposed to windows?
It certainly isn't seeming that way
imac - 2,000
<snip>
I built my last computer and it ran me ~500 and that computer still runs great, I just REALLY wanted a mac for my new PC.
TCO is generally determined over many years of use and not at initial purchase, and if you feel compelled to do this comparison you should compare like for like. In other words, a PC all-in-one with similar resolution and so on. I've never understood the need to justify a PC purchase anymore than you'd justify a car purchase... just get what you like that meets you needs and/or wants. My wife has a Prius and I have a 700 hp Corvette. They both fit what we wanted.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 01:46 PM   #18
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Another aspect regarding Windows PCs is that they will "require" more software updates and recurring costs in the near future. Essentially, the operating system as well as the office suite are going to a subscription-based model. This removes the "upgrade if you want" portion and transitions to a "pay if you want to use your computer" model.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 02:05 PM   #19
thehustleman
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Quote:
Without meaning to sounding really rude here. Dude, how can you complain about "total cost of ownership" after willingly spending 4x more than you did on your last computer? Especially considering you can get Macs for much less.<br />
<br />
It sounds like you moved from an adequately specc'd home made base unit to Apples top of the range offering of it's all in one computer. It would be like moving from a tiny 2 door japanese car to a Jeep and then complaining about the associated price hike and running costs. As the other posts in this thread have already said; you do get what you pay for.<br />
<br />
You have a fantastic computer and have obviously payed top dollar for it. Just enjoy it and don't worry about the cost
Oh not complaining about the costs and it's what I wanted. If it wasn't I wouldn't have bought it.

I was just wondering about some things.


I'm weening myself off of Windows
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 03:56 PM   #20
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You know what they say, if you don't like a product then vote with your feet....

However....

If you do like a product then you buy it and don't care what others say.

Personally I wished I turn to apple many years ago, my iMacs a beast.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:05 PM   #21
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A local upscale hamburger chain ran a memorable radio ad ending:
"Sure you can get a hamburger for $1. But then you'd have to eat it."

Likewise "total cost of ownership" for high-end Macs vs cheap PCs: you have to consider a lot more than just initial purchase, including the fact you'd have to use it.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:08 PM   #22
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Total cost of ownership is not just initial investment.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:09 PM   #23
Count Blah
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If you are comparing an iMac to a DIY system, then there is your problem. You should be comparing a DIY PC to a 'Hackintosh' then. The total cost of owenership comes into play when the iMac is usable for a couple more years than the the wintel machine.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:10 PM   #24
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Um you do realize that PC stands for personal computer right? Why are you acting as if a mac isn't a pc?
Because the term "PC" typically refers to a machine built to run MS Windows, "Mac" refers to a computer built by Apple to run OS X, and "Linux box" anything built or adapted to run Linux - even if they're all "personal computers". Social convention often doesn't adhere to technical precision.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:24 PM   #25
paulrbeers
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Um you do realize that PC stands for personal computer right? Why are you acting as if a mac isn't a pc?
Seriously? Yeah I get that a Mac is a "personal computer", but you already realize the world looks at it as a "PC" vs a "Mac" right? Where PC generally equals a Windows Machine. You get that right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
I shouldn't have had to buy another keyboard, the one that came with the system should have had the keypad on it.
If you order from Apple as a BTO machine, you get the option to add the wired keyboard (for free) and that gives you a keypad. Obviously you didn't look at your options and went with standard included keyboard. So again, you didn't need to spend money for key pad. Apple gives you a choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehustleman View Post
As for dvd drives, i didn't want just some cheap drive, I needed to have something that would last so I got a great burner on the way. And yes its a choice but a needed choice since apple neglected to include something that should have been included.
Samsung makes some of the best external optical drives and you can order them from anywhere for 30. So no, my 20-30 range is spot on.
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Portab...+dvd+drive+red
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