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Old Jan 4, 2013, 06:06 AM   #151
0dev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackieTreehorn View Post
What's an Android tablet?


Half the price and double the power of an iPad, that's what
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 06:12 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apolloa View Post
hahaha, the LAST thing I would state is Apple solely destroyed the Netbook market! More likely it was due to the TOTAL smartphone and tablet market, not incredibly expensive Apple Netbooks and tablets...

And they have moved onto Ultrabooks now anyway.
I think most of the netbooks were sold to people who just wanted a _cheap_ laptop. Having very little power was a negative side effect, being small with a small screen was also a negative side effect of the low price for those people. Now you can get a big hunk of a laptop for the same or almost the same price, so these people aren't going to buy a netbook anymore. I think it is the loss of these buyers that killed the netbook.

The other customers are minority groups. There are those who wanted a _small_ laptop. With as little compromise as possible, and cheapness not a big requirement. For these people, the netbook was disappointing, and for these people the MBA and Ultrabooks were developed. Both are obviously not as cheap as a netbook, but they are actually useful to the customer and profitable to the manufacturer.

And then there were those who wanted a computerlike thing for light use, and there the tablet (iPad) is killing the remaining netbook sales.

But the biggest killer are very cheap 15" windows laptops. Compared to MBA and iPad, netbook has pros and cons. Compared to a cheap 15" windows laptop, netbooks are failures for most of the potential customers.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
For awhile there, Sony made the most interesting laptops around.
Including the PowerBook 100 which I think was the smallest usable laptop at its time.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 06:14 AM   #153
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The dual core Atom ones were not bad. I saw some good ones in the shops.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 06:38 AM   #154
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No these are ripoffs:

Thumb resize. Thumb resize. Thumb resize.

And when did we start seeing these? After the MBA and unibody MBP's. Heck even tech sites that aren't usually pro-Apple like Engadget and c|net have called out OEM's on this.

And there are other instances, while not complete ripoffs, certainly taking design cues from Apple:

Thumb resize. Thumb resize. Thumb resize.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0dev View Post
Image

Half the price and double the power of an iPad, that's what
so with that "double power" what exactly can the nexus 7 do that the iPad can't? And I'm not talking about iOS vs Android, just hardware specs.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 06:48 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
so with that "double power" what exactly can the nexus 7 do that the iPad can't? And I'm not talking about iOS vs Android, just hardware specs.
The main advantage of the better specs is a longer lifetime product. The iPad Mini has outdated hardware and, while it runs the current version of iOS fine, it will quickly start to lag when it's updated because the hardware is already two years old. The N7 on the other hand has brand new hardware and will therefore stay snappy for a lot longer.

And then of course there's all the advantages that come out of Android.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:08 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
How is it in its own category? Its just a thin laptop, like an " ultra book " the term " ultra book " doesn't mean anything, its just a thin and light laptop.

Has anyone ever here actually used an 1st generation MBA? It was a real turd.

Sony also had the first " ultra brook ", not Apple.
The term "Ultra Book" is made up by Intel to classify their thinner MacBook Air clones. When Steve Jobs pulled the original MacBook Air from the manila folder at MacWorld in 2008, there was no such thing as an Ultra Book. Notice the Ultra Book came SEVERAL years later! As another commenter said, the MBA should automatically be classified then? I don't think it's an Ultra Book, I think it's just plain and simple, a MacBook Air.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
No these are ripoffs:

Thumb resize. Thumb resize. Thumb resize.

And when did we start seeing these? After the MBA and unibody MBP's. Heck even tech sites that aren't usually pro-Apple like Engadget and c|net have called out OEM's on this.

And there are other instances, while not complete ripoffs, certainly taking design cues from Apple:

Thumb resize. Thumb resize. Thumb resize.

----------

so with that "double power" what exactly can the nexus 7 do that the iPad can't? And I'm not talking about iOS vs Android, just hardware specs.
I'm not sure if Jony Ive should be flattered by these blatant ripoffs, or pissed off. I've seen most of the MacBook clones, but that all in one by HP is unreal!
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:23 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTX View Post
I'm not sure if Jony Ive should be flattered by these blatant ripoffs, or pissed off. I've seen most of the MacBook clones, but that all in one by HP is unreal!
I still say the Spectre is only superficially similar. Sure, it's black and grey like an iMac, and it's an all-in-one like an iMac, but the actual design is quite a bit different. If anything, I'd say that Dell is a closer match than the HP is.

Also, the MBA wasn't the first laptop you fit into a manila envelope. In fact, the MBA wasn't a first of it's kind at all. It wasn't like anyone wasn't thinking about making thin laptops up until Apple showed them the way.

For example, here's an Intel PC from 2007 that's almost as thin as the Air.

Apple marketed their thin PCs better, hence why some of you think it was some brand new thing they came up with. But they weren't the first. Far from it.

Edit: Got one even better for you...



The Sharp Muramasas. A thin laptop that utilized a wedge shape and was thinner than the first gen MBA.

...which came out [s]shortly before[/s] 5 years before the MBA was unveiled in 2008.

So tell me again how you consider ultrabooks "clones".

Last edited by Renzatic; Jan 4, 2013 at 07:32 AM.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:35 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by louis.b View Post
Gimme a break. The wedge shape, the aluminium shell case, the big single track pad (for Windows ), the island keyboards (yes I know Sony made it first but you didnt see PC makers made them until Apple's macbooks got popular).

I'm sorry but Chromebook is not even an option for any NORMAL RATIONAL consumer. Who wants to pay about $300 for a so-called laptop that only works when there's wifi? Better buy an Android tablet.

And by neutral people you mean people who always end their statements with
a) Samsung/ Google is better than Apple
b) Android is better than iOS
c) Apple is an evil corporation

Neutrality defined.
1.Who cares who made it popular. If someone did something first and another company copied it - they copied it. Or if they were influenced they were influenced. End of story. That goes for any company lest you think I am "dumping" on Apple. Popularity doesn't mean anything.

2. Who made you an arbiter of what is an option for any NORMAL RATIONAL consumer. Answer this - if you want to have a very light portable computer that is cheap and has a keyboard - all in one unit. What do you suggest someone buy. A chromebook is actually a very interesting device for many. You know how many people knocked the iPad because at the time it was introduced - at most it was for content consuming - not any productivity. Not any REAL productivity.

There are also plenty of people who don't need to pay for 3G connectivity because they are either always in a wifi zone and/or have a hotspot.

You are but ONE use case scenario. You can state that you don't see any practical need for yourself. But when you assert that any NORMAL RATIONAL consumer has no need for a chromebook - well in MY opinion - that's just ignorant.

And finally - please illustrate who on this forum always end their statements with any of the three statements you posted. Can you name even one? Strawman and hyperbole.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:41 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
What is it with Samsung and their brushed fake looking metal. Fugly.
This is the place where we can bask in the glory of Apple design, but there is no need for hitting below the belt like that. I bought a Samsung Series 9 laptop for my aunt, she loves using it, reliable and quite well designed. And regarding Samsung taking design cues from other manufacturers, remember what Steve said about "great artists."
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:54 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTX View Post
that all in one by HP is unreal!
I've never seen an Apple computer that looks like that though.

I think what Renzatic is saying and that people are not getting is that :

Claiming that it's ok for Apple to take cues from Sony but then lambasting other manufacturers for taking cues from Apple is a double standard.

And applying double standards is not intellectually honest in conversation.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:56 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojoman View Post
Not just netbook, Ultrabook line will be dead soon. No one wants to pay over 1k for Windows notebook.
Wow, that's completely not true. I would rather have a Windows Laptop for 1k then a Apple for 1.5k. They aren't going anywhere because business still relies on them. you can't work efficiently on a tablet, especially an iPad, maybe a Surface since it has office, but I would wait for the Pro version.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 07:56 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisTX View Post
I'm not sure if Jony Ive should be flattered by these blatant ripoffs, or pissed off. I've seen most of the MacBook clones, but that all in one by HP is unreal!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:00 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Pretty much. I've almost got it figured out now. They'll come in, say "Apple did X first, everyone else copied". When you prove them wrong, they'll fire back with "Well...yeah...but, that sucked. Apple might not have invented it, but they were the first to do it right". Then it becomes a cyclical argument you can't win because they'll keep repeating the same things over and over again.

Now sometimes it's cool to come in here and argue. Every once in awhile you'll run across someone with an informed opinion you don't totally agree with, and you'll end up having a nice discussion. Unfortunately, that's relatively rare. Most of the time it's the same blah copy blah innovate blah blah blah over and over again.

----------



I bet you spent all of 2 minutes googling up that info. Pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
Agreed on both counts. Two minutes is what most folks will give searching for info backing them up. Two minutes MAX.

In most cases I will just leave the thread to avoid the eventual flame bait comment or timeout from my total frustration from talking to what is essentially a brick wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwwilson View Post
The release of the iPad mini was esentially the death knell of netbooks.
I would 100% disagree. What really killed the netbook was faster, slightly larger PC models introduced merely months after the fad caught on. You could get an Eee PC for $250 alright . . . . or you could spend $100 more and get a Core 2 Duo 14" laptop. In some cases you could even get a 12" laptop for around $400 with enough power and an optical drive to trump a Macbook Air.

This is the last version of the Sony Vaio TT that blew a good deal of machines in it's category out of the water. An 11.1" machine that was just a tad thicker than the Air but lighter, with a Blu-Ray burner, HDMI out, two USB ports, Firewire, ethernet, and VGA. Interestingly enough, the reviews are from 4 year ago yesterday.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:02 AM   #164
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I once got along with an Acer Netbook that was given by my mum. To be honest those manufacturers just didn't invest any time or money into making any netbook useful. The original idea of Netbook was very good, a very portable laptop for cloud computing. The image quality of that Acer was good but the screen estate was the worst a person could get from any computer. When I worked with Office 2007 on that shxt, the ribbon toolbar occupied nearly 50% of the screen estate.

And those manufacturers didn't invest any money into the hardware either, I think my USD $70 Casio scientific calculator has better hardware than that. MacBooks may not have the most powerful GPU on earth, but when we compare it to those Wintel laptops with similar components, those Wintel things will not match up.

Call me sheep or MacBook fanboy but I just hardly find any Wintel laptop could run better than my current MacBook Pro. You see how terrible the world could be when some established PC makers will make tiny white elephants that nobody wants to buy.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:07 AM   #165
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ASUS Zenbook resembles MBA the most, more so than Samsung products which are slapped with sanctions. Somehow ASUS gets a pass...



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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:08 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HishamAkhtar View Post
Wow.

Apple literally KILLED a category.
Um...no.

1)The attractiveness of netbooks was that it was still a full-fledged traditional computer (full OS, real keyboard, multiple USB ports and i/o ports, traditional/same software with exact same features, print ability, etc.) yet it was in a very compact design for about $300 on average. It was not meant to be a game system and surely not designed to be an iPad that is SOOOO completely different than any kind of traditional personal computer.

2)Building on #1, netbooks were extremely handy to bring on vacation and/or have as a 2nd machine since they were very inexpensive (you lose it on vacation and you are out $300...not $800+ for a full laptop) and very small which made them far more portable (not just weight, but the ability to plop them in your bag unlike a 15" laptop).

3)Netbooks were never going to be mainstream as a full laptop replacement and were not designed to be...they were a natural progression of making "laptops" in never-ending formats/offerings. Just as there are super expensive laptops there are super cheap (netbooks) laptops. Even as "2nd machines" they were not an easy sale because for a few hundred bucks more you could get a system with much better performance and a true-size keyboard.

4)Although I agree the iPad *helped* kill off the netbooks, there were so many other reasons why netbooks simply weren't going to be hugely mainstream. A few of those reasons are: a)netbooks were not designed to be game machines or high(er) end video playing machines...so people would still need to spend $500+ for a decent laptop to get what they needed...which was almost 2x the cost of a netbook...b)the keyboards were always just a tad too small due to the form factor...still far better than the iPad...but for anyone typing more than a few paragraphs, it would not work...c)they were relatively slow due to their form factor's physical limitations while trying to keep all the normal laptop stuff (i/o ports, keyboard size, SATA ports, etc...so some people typically opted to buy a higher end netbook for $400 to get a larger netbook but then realized they could come back to reality and spend $550 and get a "full" size laptop and stop crying about the 2 pounds of extra weight.

5)It's very hard to convince me (or others) that a cheapest of the cheap iPad for $500 (almost 2x the cost of the average netbook), with it's Apple monopoly, iTunes mandatory use, COMPUTER MANDATORY USE (to run iTunes), non-Windows apps, non-Apple standard apps, no print ability, no standard i/o ports "machine" was the single or very strong reason why netbooks died. No way. Was it a factor? Yes...for some. I would argue the iPhone and other smartphones had more impact because they are really computers more than phones...and can access the internet anywhere...and simply that although a low average price at $300, netbooks were just a hair too limiting when a $500+ Windows laptop would more than make up. Let's face it, computers are essential and every home in the USA has a few...might as well get what is really needed.

6)It's also laughable to suggest that an Apple $1400+ laptop ate away at sales of a $300 Windows laptop. Even if it was a $800 Apple laptop that would suggestions would be absurd.


I bought a netbook back in 2008...it was actually extremely useful but a little small for my typing fingers. I loved the ability to: run iTunes on it and use it as a jukebox for my stereo, easily surf the net wherever I wanted (I do not own any laptops...just desktops), take on vacations with little fear of theft, and generally use as a 2nd computer. It cost me $275. I stopped using it after a few years mainly because it was just a tad too small overall...and my iPhone became my #1 way to check my emails and a few quick websites each day.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:13 AM   #167
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Apple didn't kill the netbook market, it is killed by all those **** PC makers with **** marketing skills

PC makers should make a innovative Netbook to kill Apple instead, shouldn't they?
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:17 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louis.b View Post
Say what you want. I just didn't see PC makers make Sony-inspired laptops when Sony was the cool brand but they sure as hell made Apple-inspired laptops since 2011 when the macbook pros got great reviews for their designs.
FALSE, the old Dell Inspirons took design cues from the old Old OLD Powerbook titanium. Many on these forums are just too young to remember, or only just recently became the "tech experts" they claim to be.

Quote:
And calling people ignorant if they disagree w you, sounds familiar to me who used to frequent Android forums.
Anyone can disagree with us or others, just don't take our factual proof of our statements and turn them upside down, or use double standards to support wrong and grossly over exaggerated claims.

I agree that PC venders and others take design cues from Apple, but Apple has TOTALLY ripped off other vendors as well. I welcome it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
What can I say? Selective memory on your part? I dunno.
Most definitely.

Quote:
Hey, Pot! How you doing?

Oh, you know, Kettle. Just sitting here, maxin' and relaxin'.

Hey, has anyone ever told you how incredibly black you are, Kettle?

...er, so are you, Pot.

SHUT UP FANDROID! GET OFF MY FORUM!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
I still say the Spectre is only superficially similar. Sure, it's black and grey like an iMac, and it's an all-in-one like an iMac, but the actual design is quite a bit different. If anything, I'd say that Dell is a closer match than the HP is ..... So tell me again how you consider ultrabooks "clones".
In the end, some folks just say the Apple version first and since Apple is usually louder about what they do than others, many on these forums just lived in a hole until Apple fed them something, like the MBA.

Then they see other models and call them knock offs or vaporware, when in fact they were reasonably successful models from companies that've been building them for years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KanosWRX View Post
Wow, that's completely not true. I would rather have a Windows Laptop for 1k then a Apple for 1.5k. They aren't going anywhere because business still relies on them. you can't work efficiently on a tablet, especially an iPad, maybe a Surface since it has office, but I would wait for the Pro version.
Agreed. And since Apple has killed off the $3300 17" Macbook Pro, I may just have to fork out $3700-$4000 for an HP Elitebook or Dell M6700. Both of which have specs that put Apple's "Pro" laptop to shame, and software that's on par.

So yeah, I'd definitely pay 1k or more for a Windows machine if it did what I needed it to do.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:23 AM   #169
ericinboston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryKNN21 View Post
I once got along with an Acer Netbook that was given by my mum. To be honest those manufacturers just didn't invest any time or money into making any netbook useful. The original idea of Netbook was very good, a very portable laptop for cloud computing. The image quality of that Acer was good but the screen estate was the worst a person could get from any computer. When I worked with Office 2007 on that shxt, the ribbon toolbar occupied nearly 50% of the screen estate.

And those manufacturers didn't invest any money into the hardware either, I think my USD $70 Casio scientific calculator has better hardware than that. MacBooks may not have the most powerful GPU on earth, but when we compare it to those Wintel laptops with similar components, those Wintel things will not match up.

Call me sheep or MacBook fanboy but I just hardly find any Wintel laptop could run better than my current MacBook Pro. You see how terrible the world could be when some established PC makers will make tiny white elephants that nobody wants to buy.
I agree with your post...but a very high percentage of people who do NOT buy Macs, do not buy for the following 2 reasons: 1)Price and 2)It's a Mac and "nobody" they know uses them, not even at work and thus it's a whole new thing to learn...not to mention the lack of software (other than Photoshop and MS Office) that exists on both Mac and PC.

I grew up on a //e and the Mini was my first Mac...it works, but I find it so much easier to find apps on the PC that EVERYBODY has, can recommend, and can assist with. If I have a Mac app question/recommendation, I literally know 0 people that can help...I'm at the mercy of Google.

$300 Netbook designs just cut too many corners when a $500+ Wintel laptop would more than fix all the netbook problems. If you don't have $500 to spend on a laptop, you shouldn't be buying a laptop.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:28 AM   #170
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And I'll add (because it's worth repeating)

You cannot compare the MacBook Air to a Netbook. While similar use cases - completely different market.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:36 AM   #171
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since we are talking about "inspiration"

I remember in 2007 when HP put out their laptops and monitors with black bezel/silver body (think the keyboards even had black keys), then in 2008 MacBooks and Cinema Displays did the same
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:36 AM   #172
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Netbooks lasted about a year longer than I expected. Who had the bright idea to sell a stripped down piece of junk for $300 that wasn't upgradeable and had all of the negatives of slow, power hungry electronics and bad displays?

I know older people and kids with basic computing needs who all (100%) went to the iPad rather than a netbook. There is just no comparison.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 08:41 AM   #173
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MBA didn't kill Netbooks ... iPad did

If anyone looked at sales trend of desktop, PC laptops, Mac laptops, tablets over the last few years, it's blatantly clear that iPad's ascension correlates nearly perfectly with netbooks' demise

the entire PC market is in decline ... desktops are left for very few users (certain workstations plus gaming rigs), laptop sales are flat, while only tablet sales are through the roof

Jobs was right ... again. Apple and Jobs helped kill Adobe Flash, helped kill Nokia/Blackberry, and helped kill netbooks.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 09:12 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Small White Car View Post
So it turns out that the only difference between a MacBook Air and a Netbook was they one was small and good and one was small and bad.
Well, that and $700.

What happened with netbooks is they got bigger, and became laptops. Asus hasn't stopped making small, affordable laptops, they just stopped making ones with a 10" screen (customers prefer 11.6"), and stopped calling them "netbooks", offering a wider range of CPUs across broader price points.

Apparently there's still a market for computers, with current and projected sales at roughly the same growth rates as we've seen for the last decade:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-f...ck-2012-3?op=1
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 09:15 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
In the end, some folks just say the Apple version first and since Apple is usually louder about what they do than others, many on these forums just lived in a hole until Apple fed them something, like the MBA.

Then they see other models and call them knock offs or vaporware, when in fact they were reasonably successful models from companies that've been building them for years.
Pretty much. I think a lot of people here got in on the computer/mobile scene only recently through Apple products, then from that point on only tended to listen to Apple based tech news.

I guess when you live in a bubble, listening to a community that's literally obsessed with the idea that their favorite companies does everything first...well...look around. What you're seeing is the end result.

Now I know at some point someone is going to come in and start screaming "APPLE HATER OLOL", and you know...I'm not. I just recognize what Apple actually is. They're rarely ever inventors. I don't think I've seen anything come out of Apple that was completely unprecedented. What they are, what they do best, is polish and shine. They'll take something else someone has done and make it sleek, stylish, and easy to use. That's Apple's bread and butter right there.

Apple didn't invent the thin laptop, didn't even beat anyone to the punch on having the thinnest laptop around. They just made a really, really nice thin laptop that worked well and everyone wanted.
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