Steubenville, Ohio Rape Situation

[skottichan]

Originally Posted by leekohler

Hence the reason we refer to it as Stupidville.

This.

As much as I mocked my hometown of Zanesville, at least it's not Stupidville (or Chillicothe).

[quagmire]

Some progress being made. Kent State is reviewing the scholarship of one of the people involved.

Ohio State has revoked another persons scholarship.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...ty-host/60656/

[rdowns]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Some progress being made. Kent State is reviewing the scholarship of one of the people involved.

Ohio State has revoked another persons scholarship.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...ty-host/60656/

I hear Penn State has some available scholarships.

[quagmire]

Judge ruled they were guilty

[Moyank24]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Judge ruled they were guilty

Good.

A shame they'll be serving their sentence in a juvenile facility.

I also wish they would go after the guys who recorded the crime, and then spread pictures and videos of it all over the net. It needs to be shown that what they did is not ok as well.

[VulchR]

Seems to me that if a person doesn't know what they did was wrong by the age of 16, it seems unlikely they will ever learn. They should serve the remainder of a full sentence once they become adults.

[Moyank24]

Originally Posted by VulchR

Seems to me that if a person doesn't know what they did was wrong by the age of 16, it seems unlikely they will ever learn. They should serve the remainder of a full sentence once they become adults.

I agree.

It seems like in this situation (I'm not sure, but just assuming from everything I've read), that they can only be held until they are 21. Which is basically a 4 and 5 year sentence for them. If it's going to be that short, I'd happily stick them in an adult prison.

I also wonder if once they are released they'll have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives. I know in some juvenile cases that isn't always a must.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by VulchR

Seems to me that if a person doesn't know what they did was wrong by the age of 16, it seems unlikely they will ever learn. They should serve the remainder of a full sentence once they become adults.

The story is updated saying one got 1 year in jail, the other two years......

Our wonderful justice system......

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by VulchR

Seems to me that if a person doesn't know what they did was wrong by the age of 16, it seems unlikely they will ever learn.

We don't stop learning at 16.

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Originally Posted by VulchR

Seems to me that if a person doesn't know what they did was wrong by the age of 16, it seems unlikely they will ever learn.

Without reference to this particular case, in general I have to disagree with you. They may "know right from wrong", but, that can occupy an awfully limited part of the prefrontal cortex at age 16.

I have seen many examples of perspectives which changed dramatically between age 16 and 21, and further still by age 25. Not to be sexist, but, I'm mostly talking about boys, who can be very thick-headed at age 16. In all seriousness, if you lock away forever every teenage boy who ever commits a serious offense, you are looking at 15% or so of the male population.

[malman89]

Originally Posted by quagmire

The story is updated saying one got 1 year in jail, the other two years......

Our wonderful justice system......

"Minimum" 2 years and "minimum" one year being the key word.

I somewhat doubt they'll be held until 21 as well, but it's worth noting the minimum aspect.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by malman89

"Minimum" 2 years and "minimum" one year being the key word.

"Juvenile" being the other key word.

[VulchR]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

We don't stop learning at 16.

Of course not, but it is a matter of degree. In many cultures individuals who are 16 are considered sufficiently mature to be held accountable for their actions. I worry that much of our justice system is predicated on historically aberrant Victorian ideas about the innocence of childhood. I guess we'll see if these guys re-offend in a few years.

Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk

Without reference to this particular case, in general I have to disagree with you. They may "know right from wrong", but, that can occupy an awfully limited part of the prefrontal cortex at age 16.

I have seen many examples of perspectives which changed dramatically between age 16 and 21, and further still by age 25. Not to be sexist, but, I'm mostly talking about boys, who can be very thick-headed at age 16. In all seriousness, if you lock away forever every teenage boy who ever commits a serious offense, you are looking at 15% or so of the male population.

We're not talking petty theft here. We're talking about a crime against a person. In my mind, this speaks volumes about how these young males view other people, and I doubt that will change. Like I said above, I guess we'll see if they commit more offenses. In any case, I pity the girl who will have to witness these guys getting out of prison after a token sentence.

[likemyorbs]

Luckily they will not just be serving time, they will be receiving the psychological treatment that they so desperately need.

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Originally Posted by VulchR

Of course not, but it is a matter of degree. In many cultures individuals who are 16 are considered sufficiently mature to be held accountable for their actions.

14 seems to be the traditional age generally. I am willing to go with 14. They should be held accountable.

I worry that much of our justice system is predicated on historically aberrant Victorian ideas about the innocence of childhood. I guess we'll see if these guys re-offend in a few years.

Don't get me wrong. I don't consider them "innocent". But, I do consider the Victorians right about quite a few things. For example, that we are not so far removed from the Chimpanzees and Bonobos as we might like to imagine. That society needs to give people rewards and punishments to guide them to be more "civilized". Civilization is a pretty thin veneer on all of us. It takes a lot of civilizing to make us behave. I think it is unscientific to consider violent behavior "unnatural". It is, sadly, natural, and it takes a lot of effort to train it out of people. Does that make me Victorian, too? Maybe.

We're not talking petty theft here. We're talking about a crime against a person. In my mind, this speaks volumes about how these young males view other people, and I doubt that will change. Like I said above, I guess we'll see if they commit more offenses. In any case, I pity the girl who will have to witness these guys getting out of prison after a token sentence.

Unfortunately, as the earlier part of these threads showed, standards of behavior in Steubenville seem to be low. And, people are trying to change that. The sad fact is that apparently a lot of people in Steubenville thought this was "normal" behavior, hence a lot of the comments in the thread. It takes work to change these attitudes.

[quagmire]

Two Teenage girls arrested after threatening victim

[Huntn]

I think as a defendant if you've sexually taken advantage of an unconscious individual, whether they might have given consent if they had had the opportunity, that is beside the point and you are in trouble.

[Muscle Master]

I'm going to play devils advocate

I read that the Parent of the victim said to the boys "you are the accuser through social media" .. whatever the hell that means

But I blame her... what the hell is wrong with her that she could not keep tabs on her 16 year old girl.. like really, I'm sorry, I'll beat the **** outta my kids if they even gonna think about being in that type of environment and putting themselves at risk. The mother should be ashamed of herself... I have very little sympathy for the victim.. she should blame her mother

Raise your kids people.. beat the **** outta them if necessary and you'll prevent crap like this happening to them

Can't believe tax dollars was wasted on a investigation when the only problem I see was that their parents didn't know where the hell their kids were that night! this goes for the boys parents also

[quagmire]

So you blame the victim because the mother wasn't being overprotective?

What about the parents of the rapists? They raised rapists.... Yet you blame the victim and her mother....

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Muscle Master

I read that the Parent of the victim said to the boys "you are the accuser through social media" .. whatever the hell that means

It's just a guess, but I think it's a clumsy way of saying to the boys, "you incriminated yourselves through social media."

As for your devil's advocacy ... I do hope you find parenthood fulfilling.

[Muscle Master]

Originally Posted by quagmire

So you blame the victim because the mother wasn't being overprotective?

What about the parents of the rapists? They raised rapists.... Yet you blame the victim and her mother....

I'm not saying the idiots are not guilty.. but they aren't the only idiots here both parties parents are to blame

Originally Posted by citizenzen

It's just a guess, but I think it's a clumsy way of saying to the boys, "you incriminated yourselves through social media."

As for your devil's advocacy ... I do hope you find parenthood fulfilling.

And there's a difference between being overprotective and not knowing where your "16" year old is... that is a very big problem

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Muscle Master

I'm not saying the idiots are not guilty.. but they aren't the only idiots here

And there's a difference between being overprotective and not knowing where your "16" year old is... that is a very big problem

What would knowing her daughter was at a party done? You're not going to allow your kids to go to parties?

" Yeah mom, I'm going to a party that has rapists! Be back at midnight!"

.....

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Muscle Master

And there's a difference between being overprotective and not knowing where your "16" year old is... that is a very big problem

I'm sure you'll have that all figured out.

[Moyank24]

Originally Posted by Muscle Master

I'm going to play devils advocate

I read that the Parent of the victim said to the boys "you are the accuser through social media" .. whatever the hell that means

But I blame her... what the hell is wrong with her that she could not keep tabs on her 16 year old girl.. like really, I'm sorry, I'll beat the **** outta my kids if they even gonna think about being in that type of environment and putting themselves at risk. The mother should be ashamed of herself... I have very little sympathy for the victim.. she should blame her mother

Raise your kids people.. beat the **** outta them if necessary and you'll prevent crap like this happening to them

Can't believe tax dollars was wasted on a investigation when the only problem I see was that their parents didn't know where the hell their kids were that night! this goes for the boys parents also

This is the reason that a high percentage of women who are raped never go to the authorities.

Let's not blame the boys who thought it was ok to rape an unconscious woman and let's not blame the idiots who chose to take pictures and videotape it instead of stepping in and stopping it. Let's blame the victim. And her mother.

[Muscle Master]

Originally Posted by quagmire

What would knowing her daughter was at a party done? You're not going to trust your kids to go to parties?

Fixed that for you

To answer your question... This day in age, I would trust but verify what party she is going to, what adults would be there to supervise, make sure my child isn't freely exposed to alcohol and give her say an 11:30 curfew.. that seems to be a proper curfew for a "16 year old girl". knowing me I would pick her up from the party at midnight instead of her taking the bus home at all times of the night