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Old Jan 8, 2013, 02:52 AM   #101
gnasher729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mw360 View Post
Could you post a few examples of somebody actually acting this way on this forum? The accusation gets bandied about often, but usually by people that don't realise that large groups of individuals do tend to express conflicting opinions.
The reasoning is this: Apple often produces things that appeal a lot to ordinary people and also to the brightest people - but there is this group with a little knowledge (a little knowledge is often dangerous) where Apple's product innovation doesn't agree with their limited knowledge, so they are incapable of figuring out the advantages. Since Apple sells stuff without any - to these people - real advantage, the reason for sales must be something else, like marketing, customers being a religious cult, that kind of thing. And since to those people Apple sells stuff without a real advantage, if Apple introduced something that is _by everybody_ recognised as having no value, the marketing and their religion will make them buy it.

(As an example that it doesn't actually work, take the Apple HiFi. It wasn't appealing, and all the Apple marketing didn't sell it, and all the Apple cult followers didn't buy it. Because it wasn't an appealing product).

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Originally Posted by GregAndonian View Post
I find it hillarious that there was a story on here not too long ago about how the whole "Netbook" industry was about to shut down, thanks to the proliferation of the iPad- And now you want Apple to create a netbook...
Most people didn't actually want netbooks, they wanted cheap laptops. And since cheap laptops are available and better than netbooks, that's what people buy. Apple showed that people indeed want light laptops with as little compromise as possible.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:04 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by kbt1020 View Post
Sounds good, but I don't like the sound of LATE 2013 or 2014
I think Apple would probably release their Haswell laptops around the same time as they actually get released. But I would imagine Apple will have later generation 802.11ac if/when it becomes finalized, maybe the next generation IGZO panels, would be nice. So depending on the actual product, I think Apple will release laptops first since that's a bigger market for them than iMacs, but iMacs would be more like end of the year beginning of next year.

Basically, they'll be released when they get released, so if you NEED or WANT to wait, then you'll have something to look forward to.

All of the statements are PURELY speculation based on information from various technology sites.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle View Post
His comment doesn't require using win8. Using any touch screen that is upright creates the gorilla arm syndrome.
For those that haven't noticed, with Mountain Lion, you can get the apps in Launchpad to wiggle like iOS apps and then click to remove. Some apps work like this but I think more will over time. I don't know why that is, maybe it's only those that are dl'd from the App Store is my guess. But I thought that was cool.

Touch screen for a desktop or laptop?

I don't think it's a good idea because most of the time it's easier just using a trackpad or a gesture mouse. I can understand that some people might be conditioned from using tablets to WANT to touch the screen, but I don't want to always have to clean my iMac screen every 15 minutes from getting finger prints/grime off the screen. Plus, it's just not ergonomic to use a touch screen.

I think Microsoft just didn't know how else to make their GUI easier to use for both desktop/laptop and tablet users and just though one GUI fits all... Typical Microsoft lack of intuitive GUI design. But at least they didn't try to copy Apple this time, but in this case, I don't the innovation was good enough to switch to it.

From what Cook says, I think it will be a while or never before Apple makes a touch screen laptop/desktop OS. I just don't see it. It's all about physical location of the screen vs the trackpad.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:13 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ls1dreams View Post
What kills me is that apple doesn't offer any products in the sweet spot! Laptops - for me, around 14" is just right. 13.3 on the MBP13 is too small, and the 15" is just too large. iMac - why the hell do they jump from 21.5" to 27"? There are tons of 24" screens out there that would be way more affordable and are a great compromise.
To their defense, it's almost impossible to please everybody every time. What you or I consider the 'sweet spot' could be totally different from the next guy. Ask 100 people what their ideal screen size would be and you probably end up with a dozen different answers. A logistical nightmare and an impossibility for any company to entertain. Everybody has their own specific needs/wants/reasons, something no company can cater to.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:26 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
The reasoning is this: Apple often produces things that appeal a lot to ordinary people and also to the brightest people - but there is this group with a little knowledge (a little knowledge is often dangerous) where Apple's product innovation doesn't agree with their limited knowledge, so they are incapable of figuring out the advantages. Since Apple sells stuff without any - to these people - real advantage, the reason for sales must be something else, like marketing, customers being a religious cult, that kind of thing. And since to those people Apple sells stuff without a real advantage, if Apple introduced something that is _by everybody_ recognised as having no value, the marketing and their religion will make them buy it.

(As an example that it doesn't actually work, take the Apple HiFi. It wasn't appealing, and all the Apple marketing didn't sell it, and all the Apple cult followers didn't buy it. Because it wasn't an appealing product).[COLOR="#808080"]
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 03:29 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by wilycoder View Post
"With the company putting its efforts behind touch-capable ultrabooks, there could be increased pressure on Apple to release a touch-enabled notebook -- something it has resisted thus far"

Just because MS takes a dump and gives us win8 means we all want gorilla arm syndrome and touch screen laptops? No.
I think its implied that it'll be used for the likes of this:


In that case, touch is quite clearly VERY helpful.

On a desktop however touch will always be useless.

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Originally Posted by iSee View Post
I doubt Intel knows anything about future ultrabook designs... because Apple wouldn't have told them
Despite clouded belief from a few who refuse to research facts, Apple didn't start the 'ultrabook' or 'small but powerful laptop' trend - not by a long shot.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:04 AM   #106
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New line of "extra" ultra low voltage ivy bridge - 7 W

Well after reading the full press release I not sure which way will apple chose to follow. Apple can either update its MacBook Air line with this new line of ivy bridge of 7 Watt tdp this summer which will bring 10 hours of battery life, but may compromise on horse power. This make sense to make a difference between 13 inch air and pro. Or intel will release regular haswell mobile processor this summer and 7 watt haswell by the end 2013. Apple might stick with what it is using now but I guess apple is going to use this new line somehow, maybe even use 7 w processor just in 11 inch model to bring battery life on par with 13 inch.

IMHO this news means that we won't see updated air line with haswell this summer.

There is really many possibilities for apple how to use this new line not sure which is better. Maybe this is a topic for a new thread...

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Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:20 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by wilycoder View Post
Just because MS takes a dump and gives us win8 means we all want gorilla arm syndrome and touch screen laptops? No.
Few months later:

Apple releases iTouch MacBookPro.

"This is the best thing ever, ever! This will change everything, again."

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that you, wilycoder, will say that

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Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle View Post
His comment doesn't require using win8. Using any touch screen that is upright creates the gorilla arm syndrome.
That is based on the ill-informed assumption that:

1. You have to constantly interact with your laptop by touching the screen
2. You have to keep the screen upright at all times

Had you owned or used for a longer period of time a touch-enabled laptop, you would understand that it's not a stupid idea after all.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:34 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
I think its implied that it'll be used for the likes of this:
A floating monitor? I'll take 20!
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 04:39 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
[/COLOR]

Despite clouded belief from a few who refuse to research facts, Apple didn't start the 'ultrabook' or 'small but powerful laptop' trend - not by a long shot.
And despite the concerted effort by many individuals who try to dispute Apple's role in popularizing the thin & elegant & powerful laptops, they are the ones who set the standard for thin elegant and powerful laptops. I didnt see Intel make any ultrabooks when Sony was still making profitable products.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:09 AM   #110
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I agree. I've played with Win8, and was not impressed. Maybe that is just me, but it is not intuitive or smooth. Reminded me of Windows 3 (and most of the later versions) compared to the Mac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilycoder View Post
"With the company putting its efforts behind touch-capable ultrabooks, there could be increased pressure on Apple to release a touch-enabled notebook -- something it has resisted thus far"

Just because MS takes a dump and gives us win8 means we all want gorilla arm syndrome and touch screen laptops? No.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:13 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by louis.b View Post
And despite the concerted effort by many individuals who try to dispute Apple's role in popularizing the thin & elegant & powerful laptops, they are the ones who set the standard for thin elegant and powerful laptops. I didnt see Intel make any ultrabooks when Sony was still making profitable products.
Did the term Ultrabook exist prior to the MacBook Air?
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:20 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by louis.b View Post
And despite the concerted effort by many individuals who try to dispute Apple's role in popularizing the thin & elegant & powerful laptops, they are the ones who set the standard for thin elegant and powerful laptops. I didnt see Intel make any ultrabooks when Sony was still making profitable products.
Where exactly did I say this was about design?

Apple didnt start the 'ultrabook' trend. They just made them look slightly prettier. This isnt some crap I'm making up. Its fact.

The confusion people have, is that the ultrabook 'standard' only became official in 2011.

Also dont forget that when the Air came out in 2008 it really wasnt all that good performance wise. If anything it was a bit of a dog.

If we go down the technicality route, the real first 'ultrabook' style computer was the Sharp Actius MM10 Muramasas (which is thinner than the air)

So. Did Apple popularize the format? Sure they did (and I never said they didnt!). Did they create it? No.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Did the term Ultrabook exist prior to the MacBook Air?
The term was coined by Intel in 2011. But laptops within that area/spec were around prior to that. The term exists purely for marketing (ie like 'Netbook' did).
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:24 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
The reasoning is this: Apple often produces things that appeal a lot to ordinary people and also to the brightest people - but there is this group with a little knowledge (a little knowledge is often dangerous) where Apple's product innovation doesn't agree with their limited knowledge, so they are incapable of figuring out the advantages. Since Apple sells stuff without any - to these people - real advantage, the reason for sales must be something else, like marketing, customers being a religious cult, that kind of thing. And since to those people Apple sells stuff without a real advantage, if Apple introduced something that is _by everybody_ recognised as having no value, the marketing and their religion will make them buy it.
You know there's a flipside to that argument. Yes, there are people who do that, but the equal opposite of that obnoxiousness are people who believe Apple are the only company making computers that are innovative and worthwhile, and everything everyone else makes is pure crap not worth the money.

...until Apple does it, then it's wonderful.

Quote:
Most people didn't actually want netbooks, they wanted cheap laptops. And since cheap laptops are available and better than netbooks, that's what people buy. Apple showed that people indeed want light laptops with as little compromise as possible.
I actually knew quite a few people who wanted a netbook back during their heyday. It's not so much that they're cheap computers as they are small and easy to carry around.

They used them mainly as portable internet and entertainment machines, which they excelled at until the recent advent of the tablets trumped them on that front.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post

The confusion people have, is that the ultrabook 'standard' only became official in 2011.
Ultrabooks are only the most recent name for them. I remember them going by ultraportables, sub notebooks, and mini notebooks for years now.

It's yet another name for an old idea.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:31 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
I actually knew quite a few people who wanted a netbook back during their heyday. It's not so much that they're cheap computers as they are small and easy to carry around.

They used them mainly as portable internet and entertainment machines, which they excelled at until the recent advent of the tablets trumped them on that front.
Yup - I had one. I only ever used it when I was on vacation - nice small and cheap machine that did the job fine. The only downside I found was the crap trackpad, but then it was the first revision of the Acer Aspire One (IIRC one of the first netbooks).

At 1.6Ghz (first gen atom), 2gb ram and 80gb hdd it was fine for my needs. It also didnt really matter so much if it got lost/stolen/broken due to its low price.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:47 AM   #115
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London Bridge

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Old Jan 8, 2013, 06:56 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Marx55 View Post
Apple should make a light (400 to 600 g) Mac as small as possible (7 to 9-inches or so). Whatever form factor (clamshell, slider or tablet). Not for heavy work. Great for Keynote and PowerPoint presentations. The Mac in your pocket. Always.
Well congratulations. You just perfectly described the iPad Mini or even the iPhone if you want go further in the small and light category.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:01 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by ls1dreams View Post
What kills me is that apple doesn't offer any products in the sweet spot!

Laptops - for me, around 14" is just right. 13.3 on the MBP13 is too small, and the 15" is just too large.

iMac - why the hell do they jump from 21.5" to 27"? There are tons of 24" screens out there that would be way more affordable and are a great compromise.
why do people have to be so vague? "...'around' 14""?... what the hell good is 'around' to the laptop designer trying to make the perfect screen?!
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
Yup - I had one. I only ever used it when I was on vacation - nice small and cheap machine that did the job fine. The only downside I found was the crap trackpad, but then it was the first revision of the Acer Aspire One (IIRC one of the first netbooks).
Yeah, I don't understand why everyone is saying they're crap machines here. They weren't the fastest, greatest little laptops around, but for the price and the size, they were great...

...so long as you didn't overstress the hardware. I played with one with Windows 7 on it, and found it pretty smooth and speedy so long as I stayed within the boundaries of "simple PC usage". Movies, music, old games, all that good stuff? Ran great. Photoshop, CAD, and newer games? It'd choke it out.

Really, I think that was the biggest problem with it. Even though it was an underpowered PC, it still gave you unrestricted access to anything you threw at it, regardless of if it could handle it or not. You tried pushing it too hard consistently, you'd think it was crap.

Really, I think that's Apple's best idea regarding the mobile scene. For all intents and purposes, the iPad is about half the machine of your average netbook. Thing is, Apple restricts what can run on it, and gives developers a narrow set of hardware to play with. Even though it's not capable of as much, you're always (nearly) guaranteed a smooth experience with it. You get the impression it's a more powerful device than what it really is. Hence why everyone thinks Atom chips are slow crap in comparison to modern ARM chips.

I guess perception really is reality.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:19 AM   #119
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Apple should make a light (400 to 600 g) Mac as small as possible (7 to 9-inches or so). Whatever form factor (clamshell, slider or tablet). Not for heavy work. Great for Keynote and PowerPoint presentations. The Mac in your pocket. Always.
why stop there? id prefer a mac that folds up like a piece of paper that i can put in my wallet. and 400g? crazy! id prefer 4g. and when i unfold it to a larger size to access a bigger display its inbuilt processor could easily handle heavy work, or it could offload processing tasks to the local networked processors (in the table or the lamp or whatever) for really heavy work.

this is probably all about 8-10 years in the future though. a 400g mac could appear in about 2-3, if they wanted to do it.

im joking, but im also kinda serious.

ps i wish i knew how to multi-quote
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:47 AM   #120
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People are all excited about the increased battery life that the new processors will bring. I think that the real story here is that Intel has revolutionized the length of a day.

Quote:
The 4th generation Intel Core processor family enables true all-day battery life -- representing the most significant battery life capability improvement in Intel history. Skaugen disclosed that new systems are expected to deliver up to 9 hours of continuous battery life...
Intel has managed to decrease the number of hours in a day by 62.5%! That's a very substantial change that will have a huge effect on our entire civilization!!
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:51 AM   #121
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I find the Mac trackpad gestures similar to touchscreen gestures, I'm not sure if that suggests touch screens are a logical next step or redundant
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:53 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by zbarsky View Post
And that's why Apple made a 7.9" tablet instead....
Steve's actual quote :

Quote:
There are clear limits of how close you can place physical elements on a touch screen, before users cannot reliably tap, flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10-inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet apps.
See bold. Tim Cook even had to spin it :

Quote:
On comments that Steve made before about 7 inch tablets, let me be clear, we would not make one of the 7 inch tablets, we don’t think they’re good products, we’d never make one.
Steve was adament. The iPad Mini was under his minimum size to create great tablet apps. He would still have sold it to you with a smile and a claim that "Apple nailed it".
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 07:56 AM   #123
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Judging by the remarks in this report it seems like the Haswell powered MacBook Airs and Pros won't be debuting until the latter portion of the year. I think we could all agree that WWDC would be the earliest possible time for them to showcase any product featuring these processors. This has got me wondering what Apple will do in terms of new products in the first half of this year. So lets rule out a MacBook Pro's because of Intel's Haswell timeframe, iMac's because they just got redesigned and the same for iPhone. This leaves very few products that are realistically eligible for upgrade. Here's what I think we might see before WWDC this year...

1) New full sized iPad to match Apple's new mobile design language (iPhone 5, iPad Mini). Will be at least 25% lighter, better cameras and much thinner. I don't count the 4th gen iPad as anything more than a necessary spec bump. They were in a position where they HAD to do it. Apple clearly didn't want to go into the Xmas period with their flagship product featuring the embarrassing 30 pin connector.

2) Redesigned Air's to match Apple's new laptop design language. Smaller bezel, retina display (but is it possible to have a retina Air running on Ivy due to battery constraints?). Some say yes, some say no. Time will tell I guess. Even though we already have Ivy airs, I for one would welcome a Retina Ivy Air if it's even possible. This to me is the most unlikely of my three predictions.

3) New Apple TV or a brand new product aimed at the living room (iTV?).

For all those iTV fans, I honestly think the time is RIPE. In the last ten years of following Apple release schedules I honestly can't think of a time when they've been this free. To me it seems like they purposely upgraded or refreshed most of their products late last year in order to make room for something big early this year. Tim has not been at the helm of Apple during the release a truly new Apple product yet and I think 2013 is the year for him. Second half of the year will be all about Macs (Mac Pro included based on his remarks), iPhone and iPod, so here's to a very intriguing first half of 2013!
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 08:00 AM   #124
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How could they improve battery life by that much? Isn't the screen the main draw anyway?
They have some fancy tech which helps lower the number of times your screen refreshes if not in use. Or.. It still refreshes, but doesn't poll the CPU. Something like that.
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Old Jan 8, 2013, 08:07 AM   #125
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The term was coined by Intel in 2011. But laptops within that area/spec were around prior to that. The term exists purely for marketing (ie like 'Netbook' did).
So like I thought, Ultrabook as a marketing tool didn't exist until after the MacBook Air became popular. Who cares what came before MBA. These Ultrabook designs are clearly targeting MBA.
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