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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:15 PM   #126
KPOM
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Thunderbolt required and still requires another chip. Yet they are including it. No one will ever know why Apple was actually so late to the USB 3 game. Were they really thinking of Thunderbolt as a consumer level tech to replace USB 3 ? Because again, even Intel never positionned it as such.
Perhaps they just wanted something adequate to replace the aging FireWire, particularly since they knew they would be designing thinner notebooks with no room for older ports like Ethernet. It did enable them to market the Thunderbolt display as a "docking station" for their notebook line (and now the $29 Ethernet and Firewire adapters that they sell for the Retina MacBook Pro and Air lines). Thunderbolt target disk mode is also nice for upgrading from one Mac to another. It's easily worth $29 for a 0.5 meter cable.

However, my point is that they didn't want to add both the chips for USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt before USB 3.0 support was built in.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:25 PM   #127
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Chill out peasants. It's only 50 bucks. If it offends you that much go buy something else.
Watch out everyone, we have another "my 200 dollar cellphone makes me feel rich" guys in the house!!!
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:27 PM   #128
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However, my point is that they didn't want to add both the chips for USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt before USB 3.0 support was built in.
And again, that's a failure on Apple's part to recognize Thunderbolt for what it's being pushed as by Intel. The Apple community is under the false impression that its a failed consumer technology when in fact it's a successful Prosumer/SMB level technology.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:36 PM   #129
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However, my point is that they didn't want to add both the chips for USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt before USB 3.0 support was built in.
I wonder if that wasn't the crux of the issue, that they chose not to add a separate chip to support USB 3.0 knowing that it would be a built-in as soon as Ivy Bridge came to market.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:39 PM   #130
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And again, that's a failure on Apple's part to recognize Thunderbolt for what it's being pushed as by Intel. The Apple community is under the false impression that its a failed consumer technology when in fact it's a successful Prosumer/SMB level technology.
Well, Apple was a partner in its development, so they may have had their own aspirations irrespective of Intel's plans for the Windows market. This might have been something Steve Jobs would have pushed harder for if he were still around. We don't know. That said, Apple sells high end consumer devices, so by putting it in their products they made it a de facto consumer technology (at least as far as their market is concerned).
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:42 PM   #131
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Well, Apple was a partner in its development, so they may have had their own aspirations irrespective of Intel's plans for the Windows market. This might have been something Steve Jobs would have pushed harder for if he were still around. We don't know. That said, Apple sells high end consumer devices, so by putting it in their products they made it a de facto consumer technology (at least as far as their market is concerned).
Even as an Apple user, I trust what Jason Ziller says, as head of Thunderbolt for Intel more than what Apple pretends in their marketing and where they integrate it.

Apple using Thunderbolt in iMacs does not make it a de facto consumer technology. It just makes it a poor choice of Prosumer/SMB level technologies in a consumer level device by Apple.

Again, your source of confusion about Thunderbolt stems from your choice to listen to Apple marketing rather than Intel in the whole Thunderbolt debate.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:44 PM   #132
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Well however cynical you are, it's still an improvement. Let's let them know we like that sort of thing.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:52 PM   #133
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Well however cynical you are, it's still an improvement. Let's let them know we like that sort of thing.
By buying cables that hook up to.... nothing ?

No thank you.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:01 PM   #134
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go to BH photo and search "thunderbolt", tons of results. Video IO boxes/devices, audio IO boxes devices, single drive & fast raid storage solutions, pcie expansion boxes, express card adaptors, etc.

Thunderbolt isn't DOA, it's just not for you. It's not for transferring bluray rips to your ipad, it's for getting work done.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:06 PM   #135
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By buying cables that hook up to.... nothing ?

No thank you.
Just because you (or I) don't use the technology doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage making prices a little less absurd. I'm not suggesting anyone should buy them if they don't need them.

Thunderbolt cables are freaking fast, even if there is little uptake of the technology, but I think USB will be king for a long, long time.

Thank you.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:31 PM   #136
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And that matters how? Telling MacRumors about good Apple/mac related info has no relation to whether the info is written up as an article. The articles are written up on their own schedule. Sure I am happy about the article quality here, not perfect but one of the best rumour sites (quality wise out there).

Just don't expect your telling MacRumors anything to magically translate into a speedily written article based on your info. Not gonna happen.
It matters because I would have written it up a week ago instead of having to wait until someone else noticed and published on it yesterday.

Lots of stuff gets noticed in our forums, but we never hear about it on the editorial side because we can't possibly keep up with every post. So submitting tips to us from the forums is of immense help.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 01:34 PM   #137
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Just because you (or I) don't use the technology doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage making prices a little less absurd. I'm not suggesting anyone should buy them if they don't need them.
Then there's no way to encourage making prices a little less absurd. The only way would be to buy these new lower priced cables. Me and other Thunderbolt-less people are not going to do that.

So again, sorry, I'm not going to encourage this, even if it is a good move.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:17 PM   #138
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Then there's no way to encourage making prices a little less absurd. The only way would be to buy these new lower priced cables. Me and other Thunderbolt-less people are not going to do that.
So they should just abandon the technology altogether?
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:18 PM   #139
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Thunderbolt is headed exactly where Firewire is today
That would be great, because FireWire was used by a lot of drive enclosures and even more pro audio devices. Thunderbolt doesn't have more than a few drives/enclosures. There's one pro audio interface that has an added option to use thunderbolt (yes, added option, which you pay more for).
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:36 PM   #140
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Then why don't you start producing them and selling them by the thousands at your better price? Looks like a great opportunity for you.
Yes, because saying something is overpriced means I am able to produce one cheaper. That's a great style of thinking you have there.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:37 PM   #141
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go to BH photo and search "thunderbolt", tons of results. Video IO boxes/devices, audio IO boxes devices, single drive & fast raid storage solutions, pcie expansion boxes, express card adaptors, etc..
The same ten products over and over in different configurations. Good to see these products exist, though.

The thunderbolt option for the Apogee audio interface is $500. Holy crap. It's already an expensive interface.

Yes, "if you need it, you will buy it" is true, but that specific market is not so large. Thunderbolt is currently stuck in the premium-pro market. That won't help it much, as a standard. The costs are apparently far too high for anyone but specialty product makers to market.

Yes, it SHOULD be as ubiquitous as USB. But the better product rarely ever is, due to cost. The real solution is to subsidize it. Intel and Apple have the resources to do so. So far they're not committed to thunderbolt enough, IMO. Self-fulfilling prophecies are done this way.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:45 PM   #142
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So they should just abandon the technology altogether?
Uh ? That has nothing to do with my lack of a need to buy cables.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:03 PM   #143
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Uh ? That has nothing to do with my lack of a need to buy cables.
Then what don't you "support"? Thunderbolt or lower prices?

If you think it's a good move but don't have thunderbolt technology then let the more people who need the cables buy them instead of complaining that a technology you don't use is very expensive.

Back to my original quote, I am not accusing you of doing this, I am just saying that it is a positive thing and there is little need to criticise it. That is all.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:21 PM   #144
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If your MBP is the one in your signature it doesn't have it anyway...
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:26 PM   #145
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So design one, build it, and offer it for sale at $9.99.

Otherwise I'll assume you're an armchair expert with no worthwhile experience or knowledge, and ignore you.
Oh....I will, and when I do, I will not sell one to you.

Because you are rude
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:52 PM   #146
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The same ten products over and over in different configurations. Good to see these products exist, though.

The thunderbolt option for the Apogee audio interface is $500. Holy crap. It's already an expensive interface.

Yes, "if you need it, you will buy it" is true, but that specific market is not so large. Thunderbolt is currently stuck in the premium-pro market. That won't help it much, as a standard. The costs are apparently far too high for anyone but specialty product makers to market.

Yes, it SHOULD be as ubiquitous as USB. But the better product rarely ever is, due to cost. The real solution is to subsidize it. Intel and Apple have the resources to do so. So far they're not committed to thunderbolt enough, IMO. Self-fulfilling prophecies are done this way.
Thunderbolt is a proprietary interface, not an open standard. Why SHOULD it be ubiquitous? Should BMW M5's be ubiquitous because they are well engineered and perform better than other automobiles in certain situations? Should BMW give them away so that they can increase marketshare? How is not making money off of a lot of hard work the "real solution"? Apple is the only significant buyer of Thunderbolt controllers. Intel makes a tidy sum off of their business dealings with Apple. Apple has strong sales and healthy margins on all of its products including those with Thunderbolt interfaces. What is wrong with selling niche items that are more expensive as long as you can make a reasonable return doing so?

If you want to see 6 products over and over again in different configurations, search for SuperSpeed USB devices. The only devices that exist are based on the available silicon that has passed certification by the USB-IF. So for several years, you only had USB 3.0 to SATA bridge chips, USB 3.0 to NAND flash controllers, USB 3.0 4-port hubs, and USB 3.0 flash memory card readers. In 2012, products based on DisplayLink's DL-3000 series chips became available and ushered in a wave of USB 3.0 docking stations and display interfaces which are overwhelmingly based on the same reference designs—feel free to chose your favorite OEM branding. 6 weeks ago, adapters featuring ASIX's AX88179 USB 3.0 to Gigabit Ethernet solution hit the streets. These will cost you $30, or the same as the Apple Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter which has been available for over 6 months now. Aside from that there are a couple cameras and a few a/v interfaces using SuperSpeed USB.

Here's the list of available Thunderbolt devices again for you to mull over:
AJA ioXT
AJA KiStor Dock
AJA T-TAP
Apogee Electronics Symphony 64 | Thunderbolt
Apple Apple Thunderbolt Display
Apple Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter
Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter
Areca ARC-8050
ATTO ThunderLink FC Thunderbolt to 8Gb/s Fibre Channel Desklink
ATTO ThunderLink NS Thunderbolt to 10GbE Desklink (SFP+)
ATTO ThunderLink NT Thunderbolt to 10GbE Desklink (10GBASE-T)
ATTO ThunderLink SH Thunderbolt to 6Gb/s SAS/SATA Desklink
ATTO ThunderStream SC Thunderbolt to 6Gb/s SAS RAID Desklink
Avid Pro Tools|HD Native Thunderbolt Interface
Blackmagic Design Intensity Shuttle for Thunderbolt
Blackmagic Design Intensity Extreme
Blackmagic Design UltraStudio 3D
Blackmagic Design UltraStudio Express
Blackmagic Design UltraStudio Mini Monitor
Blackmagic Design UltraStudio Mini Recorder
Blackmagic Design UltraStudio 4K
Blackmagic Design Blackmagic Cinema Camera EF
Blackmagic Design Blackmagic Cinema Camera MFT
Blackmagic Design Teranex 2D Processor
Blackmagic Design Universal Videohub Editing Interface
Buffalo Technology MiniStation Thunderbolt (2 variants)
Drobo 5D
Drobo Mini
Elgato Thunderbolt SSD (2 variants)
Freecom Mobile Drive Mg USB 3.0 & Thunderbolt
G-Technology G-RAID with Thunderbolt (3 variants)
LaCie 2big Thunderbolt (2 variants)
LaCie 5big Thunderbolt Series (2 variants)
LaCie d2 USB 3.0 Thunderbolt Series (2 variants)
LaCie eSATA Hub Thunderbolt Series
LaCie Little Big Disk Thunderbolt (4 variants)
LaCie Rugged USB3 Thunderbolt Series (3 variants)
Magma ExpressBox 3T
Matrox DS1/DVI Thunderbolt Docking Station
Matrox DS1/HDMI Thunderbolt Docking Station
Matrox MXO2 Thunderbolt adapter
mLogic mLink
Other World Computing OWC Mercury Helios PCIe Thunderbolt Expansion Chassis (5 variants)
Promise Pegasus J2 (2 variants)
Promise Pegasus J4 (2 variants)
Promise Pegasus R4 (2 variants)
Promise Pegasus R6 (3 variants)
Promise SANLink
Seagate GoFlex Thunderbolt Adapter (2 variants)
Seagate GoFlex Desk Thunderbolt Adapter (2 variants)
Sonnet Echo ExpressCard/34 Thunderbolt Adapter
Sonnet Echo Pro ExpressCard/34 Thunderbolt Adapter
Sonnet Echo Express Thunderbolt Expansion Chassis for PCIe Cards
Sonnet Echo Express Pro Thunderbolt Expansion Chassis for PCIe Cards
Sonnet Echo Express SE (3 variants)
Sonnet xMac mini Server
Sound Devices PIX-DOCK
Universal Audio Apollo Thunderbolt Option Card
Western Digital My Book Thunderbolt Duo (2 variants)
Western Digital My Book VelociRaptor Duo
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:53 PM   #147
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Then what don't you "support"? Thunderbolt or lower prices?
Uh again ? I didn't say I didn't support cheaper cables, only that I can't encourage it. The only way to encourage Apple here is to buy the cables. I don't have a need for them so I'm not going to buy them just to encourage Apple.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 05:38 PM   #148
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This year's CES really outlined two things: the death of 3DTV, and the death of Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt support is being pulled in the PC world at an alarming rate. Motherboards, PCs and notebooks which were announced with the feature are having it removed due to consumer and industry disinterest. Major players like Asus are saying no to Thunderbolt.

2013 will be the year Thunderbolt became "that port on the 2012-2013 Apples."
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 05:57 PM   #149
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This year's CES really outlined two things: the death of 3DTV, and the death of Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt support is being pulled in the PC world at an alarming rate. Motherboards, PCs and notebooks which were announced with the feature are having it removed due to consumer and industry disinterest. Major players like Asus are saying no to Thunderbolt.

2013 will be the year Thunderbolt became "that port on the 2012-2013 Apples."
In what ways, specifically, is Asus saying no to Thunderbolt? Was it by releasing the ET2300 All-in-One PC with Thunderbolt a couple months ago?

And while Thunderbolt may be "that port on the 2011-2012 Macs", when do you suppose Apple will stop buying hundreds of millions of dollars worth of Thunderbolt controllers from Intel? Maybe it will be in the year of the 27" tablet, since those seemed to be pretty popular at this year's CES.

Perhaps this year's CES really outlined that Thunderbolt is not targeted at the same consumer demographic as most of the rest of the schlock found at that show.

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Old Jan 10, 2013, 06:38 PM   #150
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And again, that's a failure on Apple's part to recognize Thunderbolt for what it's being pushed as by Intel. The Apple community is under the false impression that its a failed consumer technology when in fact it's a successful Prosumer/SMB level technology.
I don't know which part of the Apple community you have in mind because most people I know consider TB rather as a spiritual successor to FW, not as a potential successor the USB. FW800 was nominally about twice as fast as USB 2, the same for TB vs. USB 3. FW could do a few cool things USB couldn't, TB can do a few cool things USB 3 can't (actually noticeably more cool things than FW).

FW400 had the advantage that of about a year or two of head start with USB 2 which made it during that year just massively faster than USB 1 (it had a three-year head start on the Mac). TB in comparison had zero head start with USB 3 in general (on PCs it was rather that USB 3 had two to three year head start, only on Macs did it have a one year head start).
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