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Old Jan 10, 2013, 04:29 PM   #76
rdowns
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
It goes without saying if there is less of something, the involvement of item is less frequent. In layman's terms, "DUH!!"


Now, compare violence using things other then guns, like knives, icepicks, cars, hammers, rope, etc.

Perfect example, murder by airplane.
More people have been killed by use of aircraft as weapons then all the mass shootings combined and this does NOT include 9/11 attacks.

Will we ban aircraft?

Is it necessary to use that obnoxious font size?

I'll play. No we shouldn't ban airplanes. We did however spend a couple of trillion on "homeland security", enacted new rules for flying (TSA, steel cockpit doors) and many more. Are you advocating we do the same for our gun problem?
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 04:30 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by jon3543 View Post
I think the cat's out the bag WRT guns, but I couldn't help smirking when I read about local Republican leaders and the sheriff(!) holding a luncheon in which they talked about and actually showed off the best guns to own for "self-defense", which included the AR-15 used in Newtown, and the Republicans reiterated their unflinching support for no new gun laws. They apparently did this without a trace of irony, failing to recognize the mother of that mass killer represents precisely the type of person they were giving the talk to. Later, the coroner talked about recognizing mentally ill people and what could be done to commit them, and that's the only "answer" the Republicans have. They also presented that without a trace of irony about our governor concurrently cutting programs that help with the mentally ill, mentally ill youth in particular.
THE "AR-15" used in shooting, or one like it? ("AR-15" is an extremely common rifle, and it comes is hundreds of different variants.)

I do agree there is a lot of stupid politicians out there who are ruining it for themselves.
We do need major mental health programs, what Republicans refuse to fund.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 04:35 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
It goes without saying if there is less of something, the involvement of item is less frequent. In layman's terms, "DUH!!"
There are less overall murders too...

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
THE "AR-15" used in shooting, or one like it? ("AR-15" is an extremely common rifle, and it comes is hundreds of different variants.)
Does it matter?
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 05:48 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
There are less overall murders too...
Japan has 1/3 the murder rate to UK, but both have stringent gun controls.

Canada is gun friendly as USA, yet has 1/3 murder rate.

So what does guns have to do with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post

Does it matter?
Absolutely, if you ask politicians.
The 90's "assault weapon" ban only prohibited certain configurations of AR-15. It was still legal to buy and own an AR-15.

It is so mucked up one has to be clear what they are saying.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 05:59 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Canada is gun friendly as USA, yet has 1/3 murder rate.
No, it isn't. As a gun-owning Canadian, I strongly suggest you do your research before saying such things. This is a topic that has been covered multiple times here in this forum by both myself and others.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 06:15 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Is it necessary to use that obnoxious font size?

I'll play. No we shouldn't ban airplanes. We did however spend a couple of trillion on "homeland security", enacted new rules for flying (TSA, steel cockpit doors) and many more. Are you advocating we do the same for our gun problem?
Wanted slightly more noticeable font, maybe yours it stands out too much?
Anyway.

Armed guards on a number of aircraft applied in other ways? No, not advocating that.


I am pointing out one has to examine several statistics to understand what is root cause. I know its tired statement, but guns do not kill by themselves.

Example: Gun ownership in Mexico is slightly less then Canada, 1/9 to USA; yet murder rate is HIGHER then USA by about 10% (see chart page one)
What does this tell you?
Not much, but it does strongly suggest the number of guns is a minor factor.
WHY is murder rate so high in Mexico despite so few guns? Drug war is major reason (I did make assumption on that).


All I am saying is banning guns is far less effective to reduce gun violence then mandatory education of everyone, and regular mental screening (will prevent other violence too) and safety refresher.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 06:17 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Iscariot View Post
Incorrect. Switzerland's gun laws are not even close to lax, they just have a higher level of ownership. Canada has a higher level of ownership, including the ability to purchase handguns, but you require licensing and mandatory education.
What does you mean by "a higher level of ownership"?

Neither Canada nor Switzerland have a higher level of privately owned guns per capita than the U.S. ... not even close.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 06:20 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Iscariot View Post
No, it isn't. As a gun-owning Canadian, I strongly suggest you do your research before saying such things. This is a topic that has been covered multiple times here in this forum by both myself and others.
Forgot to add the link.

As to "friendly", well, Canada is not as friendly as US, true.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 08:00 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by hafr View Post

Also, if you look at countries with less firearm-related deaths, it's not like they're automatically less violent, just that the killings are performed with other means... Take Russia for instance, where private (legal) gun ownership is close to zero, the number of gun related murders are very low, but they have more than three times the number of homicides per capita in comparison to the US

[...]

There's no way of knowing. Just as there is no way of knowing if your assumption that no guns would mean less murder.
Yes, it could be that reducing access to guns just moves the homicides over to knives. As in Russia. That is why the overall homicide rate is interesting. At least to me:

Quote:

Have you watched for instance Piers Morgan? I've seen him retort to the "do you think less guns would mean less gun related deaths" over and over when confronted with statistics about how enforcing stricter gun control haven't caused a drop in the total homicide rate, and in a few cases the correlation is even negative.
I don't watch Piers Morgan, and, I'm not sure what homicide statistics he was confronted with when you were watching. However, the statistics on overall homicide rates are quite available. Dig in to the sources listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rate_by_decade

The interesting statistics are at the bottom: the large number of countries that have far better homicide rates than the U.S. Most, with a few interesting exceptions, qualify as modern, industrialized nanny states.

Quote:

Having lower murder rates per se isn't really interesting though, what's interesting is how they're affected by gun control - since that's the question at hand.
But, you just said in a previous post that the overall homicide rate is interesting, because, it could be that reducing access to guns increases homicide via knives. Curiously, though, those countries at the bottom of the list have overall low homicide rates along with their restrictions on gun access.

Quote:

My guess is that the US has far greater problems than gun control causing the enormous homicide rates, the question is if stricter gun control would solve anything or if it's just focusing on the wrong things.
So, we are back to that straw man argument again. No credible sociologist or social psychologist or criminologist would ever claim that one single factor is responsible for all violence. Rather, it is just the opposite: we have numerous examples of countries with much higher violent crime rates than the U.S., and, much lower rates. What are the factors that contribute to a lower rate, and, of those, which ones are controllable through government policy? What combinations of policies and techniques do those countries with lower violent crime rates use? That is interesting. To me. And one of the things that most of those countries do is to restrict access to firearms in various ways. But, it is a complex picture with a lot of details-- not just firearms, but, education, vocational training, social traditions, family size, family life, policing (reactive versus community-based policing, availability of sophisticated forensics).

Last edited by jnpy!$4g3cwk; Jan 10, 2013 at 08:02 PM. Reason: bad formatting
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 08:18 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Gun ownership in Mexico is slightly less then Canada, 1/9 to USA[/URL]; yet murder rate is HIGHER then USA by about 10% (see chart page one)
What does this tell you?
You haven't looked at Mexico hard enough. Mexico is 57th on the Human Development Index, below Saudi Arabia. They are a developing nation where over half of the population live in moderate or extreme poverty with an infant mortality rate nearly triple that of the US. Their crime statistics can not be compared to the developed world with any intellectual honesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
As to "friendly", well, Canada is not as friendly as US, true.
There are three times as many guns in the US as in Canada. Your statement was 100% factually incorrect.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 10:06 PM   #86
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Did I miss this part

It seems one thing not discussed in the comparisons is that ~6% of the US population comments >60% of the homicides.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 10:15 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by djjclark View Post
It seems one thing not discussed in the comparisons is that ~6% of the US population comments >60% of the homicides.
Yes. That's because Zombie Acorn has been missing from these gun threads lately.

But please don't worry.

He's said plenty about that in past discussions.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 12:00 AM   #88
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How timely.

Saw this in Today's paper and thought I'd share these excerpts from the N.Y. Times article with you ...

Quote:
For Americans Under 50, Stark Findings on Health
Published: January 9, 2013

Younger Americans die earlier and live in poorer health than their counterparts in other developed countries, with far higher rates of death from guns, car accidents and drug addiction, according to a new analysis of health and longevity in the United States.

The 378-page study by a panel of experts convened by the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council is the first to systematically compare death rates and health measures for people of all ages, including American youths. It went further than other studies in documenting the full range of causes of death, from diseases to accidents to violence. It was based on a broad review of mortality and health studies and statistics.

“Something fundamental is going wrong,” said Dr. Steven Woolf, chairman of the Department of Family Medicine at Virginia Commonwealth University, who led the panel. “This is not the product of a particular administration or political party. Something at the core is causing the U.S. to slip behind these other high-income countries. And it’s getting worse.”

Car accidents, gun violence and drug overdoses were major contributors to years of life lost by Americans before age 50.

The rate of firearm homicides was 20 times higher in the United States than in the other countries, according to the report, which cited a 2011 study of 23 countries. And though suicide rates were lower in the United States, firearm suicide rates were six times higher.

Sixty-nine percent of all American homicide deaths in 2007 involved firearms, compared with an average of 26 percent in other countries, the study said. “The bottom line is that we are not preventing damaging health behaviors,” said Samuel Preston, a demographer and sociologist at the University of Pennsylvania, who was on the panel. “You can blame that on public health officials, or on the health care system. No one understands where responsibility lies.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/he...says.html?_r=0
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 01:43 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
What does you mean by "a higher level of ownership"?

Neither Canada nor Switzerland have a higher level of privately owned guns per capita than the U.S. ... not even close.
I think he means in comparison to most developed countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Gun ownership in Mexico is slightly less then Canada, 1/9 to USA; yet murder rate is HIGHER then USA by about 10% (see chart page one)
What does this tell you?
Not much, but it does strongly suggest the number of guns is a minor factor.
WHY is murder rate so high in Mexico despite so few guns? Drug war is major reason (I did make assumption on that).
Yeah, the number of (legal) guns is a minor factor if your country is a drugs corridor.

Compared to all the other equivalent industrialised countries it is a major factor though.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 02:03 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by hafr View Post
It's impossible to miss the discussion following the latest shootings in the states, and there is a very loud group of people saying "banning guns means less guns and less gun violence" and another very loud group saying "don't you dare touch our guns, they're protected by the constitution".

Now, as a person who's not the least bit interested in owning weapons (my time in the army was enough) and as an economist - I'm mostly interested in numbers, correlations and such.

I just can't seem to find any kind of evidence that imposing tougher gun laws would in fact make society safer. When saying this I usually get to hear that I'm a scary man, that I'm stupid for not being able to understand the concept of "less guns = less crime" and other argumenta ad passiones.

The only fact based argument I hear against gun ownership is that suicidal gun owners are more likely to use their guns when killing themselves than suicidal people who do not own guns, and that crimes of passion in the home more often include guns when there is a gun in the house than when there is not. These are both very good arguments against gun ownership, but it says absolutely nothing about the general security in the society or that it would stop these mass killings.

Another argument is comparisons between Japan and the US. Which is a comparison that lacks any importance when looking at comparisons between the states in the US or comparisons between more countries. Using only two examples when comparing only two factors is just ridiculous.

So, I'm not out to disprove anyone, I have no interest in protecting anything, I just want to know if there is anything fact based to support the claim that tougher gun control makes for a safer society - and if so, please show it to me.

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE? A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf

Just Facts: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime

No Correlation Between Gun Control Laws and Violent Crime Rates: http://inmalafide.com/no-correlation...t-crime-rates/

Gun Laws and Crime: A Complex Relationship: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/we...anted=all&_r=0

Can provide sources if you want but USA has :
Highest homocide rate of western countries
Highest gun violence of western nations
Average overal violent offenses

These 3 should tell you something, overal violence is equal or lower then moest western nations, homocides and the very vast mayority is guns is several times higher.




Accidents with guns, suicides, crazed killers stolen /sold legal guns that end up in criminal hands

Alle are a lot higher in the USA then any other western nation.


But it goes beyond more guns avaible. Switzerland has a high gun ownership as well and NOT ther vast mayority of issues the USA has.

The gun culture in the USA and seeing guns as a solution and a right is part of the problem.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 04:23 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by hafr View Post
Japan is number seven, super strict gun control, much lower crime rate than the US. Switzerland is number nine, lax gun control, much lower crime rate than the US.
We have gun control. Out of the militia you can't own guns without a license and you can't carry them without a permit anywhere. Also, guns and ammunition are to be stored separately in every household, in two different rooms and preferably one in a safe. (I visited a friend in Miami once who keeps a loaded gun as decoration in his guest room... really?)

We have plenty of red-blooded gun owners here who will never want to part with their collection, but they are the first to call the police just to make sure they have all their papers in order. The police may not be the most trusted in this country but we obey and respect the law and we respect our fellow citizens, even if they are members of police or the government.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:03 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Should be pointed out that Switzerland has slightly over half the number of privately owned firearms per capita as the United States.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co...possession/178
Due to military/militia keeping their weapons at home. I'm a bit curious as to how to approach this though, should you look at the total number of weapons in private homes, or only at the number of weapons who are not assigned? As in, should you include a police officer's service gun that he keeps at home or not? Because my guess is those who have guns because they were assigned to them aren't the people who the gun control lobby feel should be restricted...
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:05 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by hafr View Post
It's impossible to miss the discussion following the latest shootings in the states, and there is a very loud group of people saying "banning guns means less guns and less gun violence" and another very loud group saying "don't you dare touch our guns, they're protected by the constitution".

Now, as a person who's not the least bit interested in owning weapons (my time in the army was enough) and as an economist - I'm mostly interested in numbers, correlations and such.

I just can't seem to find any kind of evidence that imposing tougher gun laws would in fact make society safer. When saying this I usually get to hear that I'm a scary man, that I'm stupid for not being able to understand the concept of "less guns = less crime" and other argumenta ad passiones.

The only fact based argument I hear against gun ownership is that suicidal gun owners are more likely to use their guns when killing themselves than suicidal people who do not own guns, and that crimes of passion in the home more often include guns when there is a gun in the house than when there is not. These are both very good arguments against gun ownership, but it says absolutely nothing about the general security in the society or that it would stop these mass killings.

Another argument is comparisons between Japan and the US. Which is a comparison that lacks any importance when looking at comparisons between the states in the US or comparisons between more countries. Using only two examples when comparing only two factors is just ridiculous.

So, I'm not out to disprove anyone, I have no interest in protecting anything, I just want to know if there is anything fact based to support the claim that tougher gun control makes for a safer society - and if so, please show it to me.

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE? A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf

Just Facts: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#crime

No Correlation Between Gun Control Laws and Violent Crime Rates: http://inmalafide.com/no-correlation...t-crime-rates/

Gun Laws and Crime: A Complex Relationship: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/we...anted=all&_r=0
I think that any further discussion is impossible, you have obviously made up your own mind. It does not seem to matter what argument is placed before you, you just sit back with prove it, well if you don't try something new, how will you never know if it works.
Also trying to compare two very different countries and cultures is a misguided endeavour, what works in one place and time will not always work some where else.

The fact that Americans want to arm themselves to the roof is fine by me, after all when it all goes wrong, which is now about every six months, it's your people who die.(Sandy Hook & Aurora)

I just wish even more Americans would see the light and buy the far better made European Firearms on offer, if they are good enough for your Special Forces they should be good enough for the average American.

In the name of free trade we would also like to profit from America's gun madness, it would help the EURO as well.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:50 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Switzerland is effectively a police state though - all crime is very low there.
An interesting parenthesis here is that Switzerland used to have huge problems with heroin addicts and the crimes connected to it, something they solved very efficiently by introducing harm reduction programs and helping heroin addicts instead of hunting them. Handing out free heroin and giving them a place to inject it as an efficient solution against crime - not really a police state

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscariot View Post
Incorrect. Switzerland's gun laws are not even close to lax, they just have a higher level of ownership. Canada has a higher level of ownership, including the ability to purchase handguns, but you require licensing and mandatory education.

There are nearly twice as many households with handguns in the US than in Switzerland, and at most the gun ownership rate is one gun for every 2.66 Swiss, vs. 1 gun for every 1.16 American.

I think you really need to look more closely at the nations you're comparing before you start making such enormous and erroneous statements about their gun laws.
It's quite interesting how you earlier in the thread accused the authors of a study for being dishonest, and now you're just straight up lying.

I think it's obvious that you're trying to push an agenda by spreading misinformation.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
But, you just said in a previous post that the overall homicide rate is interesting, because, it could be that reducing access to guns increases homicide via knives. Curiously, though, those countries at the bottom of the list have overall low homicide rates along with their restrictions on gun access.
Overall homicide rate is interesting in the sense that ONLY gun related homicide rates is not, comparing them between countries is less so.

If you take a country with few homicides and a country with many, you can't argue that imposing the exact same laws in country B as in country A would mean they got the same homicide rates. On the other hand, if it turns out that a new law in country A affects the homicide rate in one direction, it's fair to assume that the same law would affect the homicide rate in the same direction.

Quote:
So, we are back to that straw man argument again. No credible sociologist or social psychologist or criminologist would ever claim that one single factor is responsible for all violence. Rather, it is just the opposite: we have numerous examples of countries with much higher violent crime rates than the U.S., and, much lower rates. What are the factors that contribute to a lower rate, and, of those, which ones are controllable through government policy? What combinations of policies and techniques do those countries with lower violent crime rates use? That is interesting. To me. And one of the things that most of those countries do is to restrict access to firearms in various ways. But, it is a complex picture with a lot of details-- not just firearms, but, education, vocational training, social traditions, family size, family life, policing (reactive versus community-based policing, availability of sophisticated forensics).
Okay, this is exactly what I'm asking for. Can you show me any kind of proof that stricter gun control does in fact make a society safer?

If you say "Sweden has stricter gun control than the US and they have fewer homicides", that's all good. But how does Sweden's gun control and homicide rate compare to Norway, Finland and Denmark?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by k995 View Post
Can provide sources if you want but USA has :
Highest homocide rate of western countries
Highest gun violence of western nations
Average overal violent offenses

These 3 should tell you something, overal violence is equal or lower then moest western nations, homocides and the very vast mayority is guns is several times higher.

Accidents with guns, suicides, crazed killers stolen /sold legal guns that end up in criminal hands

Alle are a lot higher in the USA then any other western nation.

But it goes beyond more guns avaible. Switzerland has a high gun ownership as well and NOT ther vast mayority of issues the USA has.

The gun culture in the USA and seeing guns as a solution and a right is part of the problem.
As I said, I'm not interested in intuitive argumentation. I'm interested in what can be shown. Are there proof? If so, where?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
We have gun control. Out of the militia you can't own guns without a license and you can't carry them without a permit anywhere. Also, guns and ammunition are to be stored separately in every household, in two different rooms and preferably one in a safe. (I visited a friend in Miami once who keeps a loaded gun as decoration in his guest room... really?)

We have plenty of red-blooded gun owners here who will never want to part with their collection, but they are the first to call the police just to make sure they have all their papers in order. The police may not be the most trusted in this country but we obey and respect the law and we respect our fellow citizens, even if they are members of police or the government.
The fact that you need a licence and need to keep the guns safe isn't really what I'm talking about though, it's the fact that it's easier to obtain than in other countries.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
I think that any further discussion is impossible, you have obviously made up your own mind. It does not seem to matter what argument is placed before you, you just sit back with prove it, well if you don't try something new, how will you never know if it works.
So because I'm asking for fact based arguments I've made up my mind? Seriously?

Quote:
Also trying to compare two very different countries and cultures is a misguided endeavour, what works in one place and time will not always work some where else.
So what would make the US unique in the sense that what has been proven not to work in other places would work there?

Quote:
The fact that Americans want to arm themselves to the roof is fine by me, after all when it all goes wrong, which is now about every six months, it's your people who die.(Sandy Hook & Aurora)
Ik ben geen Amerikaan, mijn vriend.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Here's a "fact based argument for gun control" out of the mouth of a gun advocate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2448751.html
If this is typical American behaviour, I'm with you...

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Originally Posted by P-Worm View Post
Be honest here, are you just crowd sourcing research assistants here for a paper you need to write for school?
No, but even if I was - why is it so hard to come up with fact based arguments for imposing stricter gun control when asked about it?

Seriously, if there were any, would they not have been presented by now?

Also, it's quite interesting to see how this always happens. All of a sudden, I'm being attacked instead of being presented with evidence. I'm not trying to disprove anything or fight for my guns. I'm just trying to find out if there are any fact based arguments that are not fallacies out there.

----------

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Originally Posted by P-Worm View Post
I'll play. No we shouldn't ban airplanes. We did however spend a couple of trillion on "homeland security", enacted new rules for flying (TSA, steel cockpit doors) and many more. Are you advocating we do the same for our gun problem?
I am. Keeping the bolt separate from the firearm would be a great way of avoiding a lot of accidents for instance.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:51 AM   #95
Andeavor
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Originally Posted by hafr View Post
The fact that you need a licence and need to keep the guns safe isn't really what I'm talking about though, it's the fact that it's easier to obtain than in other countries.
No it's not. You always need a purchase permit, which demands a passport or identity card and a criminal record if there is one. All weapons purchased within the country are automatically registered to you and your current residence, but need to be re-registered when you move to another canton or enter from abroad.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:04 AM   #96
hafr
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
How timely.

Saw this in Today's paper and thought I'd share these excerpts from the N.Y. Times article with you ...
So there are so many things wrong with the US that the population is more prone to self-destructive and antisocial behaviour, which means any kind of limitation of things that can be used in these situations would be a good thing? I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree.

It's like with drugs, harm reduction has been proven again and again to be more efficient than war on drugs, yet some people advocate a war on drugs. There is no proof (that has been offered here or that I can find, at least) that stricter gun control would be efficient in making society safer, yet some people advocate it.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
No it's not. You always need a purchase permit, which demands a passport or identity card and a criminal record if there is one. All weapons purchased within the country are automatically registered to you and your current residence, but need to be re-registered when you move to another canton or enter from abroad.
I understand that. But in comparison to France, Germany, Italy, Austria... How easy is it to obtain a purchasing permit?
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:14 AM   #97
Andeavor
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Originally Posted by hafr View Post
I understand that. But in comparison to France, Germany, Italy, Austria... How easy is it to obtain a purchasing permit?
I don't know about the rest of Europe but you need to fill out the application and send copies of the relevant documents (ID, criminal, mental, etc.). The rest is up to the justice and police department to decide whether you're fit to purchase a gun.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:32 AM   #98
k995
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Originally Posted by hafr View Post
Overall homicide rate is interesting in the sense that ONLY gun related homicide rates is not, comparing them between countries is less so.

If you take a country with few homicides and a country with many, you can't argue that imposing the exact same laws in country B as in country A would mean they got the same homicide rates. On the other hand, if it turns out that a new law in country A affects the homicide rate in one direction, it's fair to assume that the same law would affect the homicide rate in the same direction.
Yes but at the same time the eternal "more guns will solve anything" cant be used pointing towards regions with strickters gun controls and more crime/homocides.

Quote:

As I said, I'm not interested in intuitive argumentation. I'm interested in what can be shown. Are there proof? If so, where?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

United States 4.8 14,748

the closest western country

Luxembourg 2.5 12
Wich is really to small a sample
Finland 2.2 118

all the way down to

Japan 0.4 506



http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...hip-world-list

United States 60 % of homocides with gun

England and Wales 6.6
Finland 19.8
Japan 1.8



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ocon/guns.html

stolen guns account for 10/15%
An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes,"
Legal bought guns close to 28%
According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."
Stolen from FFL
The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.
Smal group of FFl's sell these weapons:
ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking.



Switzerland :



% of guns used in homocides

Switzerland 72.2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country

Number of guns per capita by country per 100


United States 88.8 rank 1 worldwide
Switzerland 45.7 rank 4
Finland 32 rank 8


Homocide rate :

Switzerland 0.7

Violent
crime
rate

USA : 400

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...es/10tbl01.xls

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

Clearly to see in switzerland also has a high gun ownership but a lot lower homocide rate (even if the % with guns is the same).


http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the...re-that-works/

Details it a bit more.




Quote:
No, but even if I was - why is it so hard to come up with fact based arguments for imposing stricter gun control when asked about it?
Because its a very complicated discussion that usualy doesnt even get started.

If you are hoping to see a clear corrolation you are out of luck, nothing on the scale of the USA population can be easily corrolated.



[quote[I am. Keeping the bolt separate from the firearm would be a great way of avoiding a lot of accidents for instance.[/QUOTE]
And asemble it as a thief enters your house? You either allow it usefullness or you ban it completly.

Making it too hard to use it with legislation will leave the worst of both arguments for and against.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:38 AM   #99
hafr
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
I don't know about the rest of Europe but you need to fill out the application and send copies of the relevant documents (ID, criminal, mental, etc.). The rest is up to the justice and police department to decide whether you're fit to purchase a gun.
Ah, see. This is the key issue though. As far as I know, all European countries have the same basic requirements as in the applications needing to be filled out and so on, but that it's easier to be approved in Switzerland. Ergo, less strict gun control.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 06:40 AM   #100
k995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hafr View Post
I understand that. But in comparison to France, Germany, Italy, Austria... How easy is it to obtain a purchasing permit?
Not that hard but it takes time and money usualy requiring a license (not possible with criminal offenses in the past) sometimes testing, waiting periods, special places were it has to be kept, yearly renewal of license.

And this is just for shooting in sportclubs or for home defense. I dont know of CCL in western/southern/northern europe .
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