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Old Jan 15, 2013, 12:55 PM   #76
KnightWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSee View Post
With a commitment like that from Intel, it sounds like Thunderbolt will remain a niche standard (at best).

USB3's lead is just about insurmountable now. The race is already over. Even if things change drastically for the better for TB in a year or so (unlikely), I don't think that will make a difference.

Not surprising... but quite disappointing.
It's funny that you're disappointed today when it's the same speech they've had since the launch of the standard in 2011.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 12:55 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ghostlyorb View Post
I just wanted a thunderbolt cable to use for my iPhone.... It's been over a year now, right?
Same here. I was really surprised that Apple created a whole new standard. Yes, the 30-pin connector needed an overhaul. But I thought they'd simply use Thunderbolt ports on their iDevices; that would push the Thunderbolt standard forward. Accessory manufacturers would have to adopt it.

But now the waters have been muddied. And the sad thing is that Lightning is just another USB 2 connector, only smaller. Maybe the transfer speeds can be tweaked with upgrades. But for now, it's not much different in size and speed than micro-USB.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 12:55 PM   #78
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Maybe ThunderBlunder was nothing more than a technical demo? Suddenly it all makes sense.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:03 PM   #79
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What hard drive did you have that wrote at ~250MB/s?
I wish! Sorry thats a typo - should have been 1.5GB
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:04 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by coolspot18 View Post
Where are the external PCI-e enclosures, or docking devices that actually have a decent set of ports?
As the thread's initial article points out they are largely waiting on software to catch up.

Part of the myth about Thunderbolt was that no new software would be needed. That's isn't true even though can probably leverage much of exististing PCI-e driver code base. The huge problem is much of the PCI-e driver software was not written or enabled for hot-plug environments. The device was always going to be connected so the driver software creators made lots of implicit assumptions. That typically fails once the device can be decoupled. Likewise as in articles case where the PCIe device is on a separate power supply with separate power management.

USB 3.0 has very similar issues. Without newer xHCI driver oriented softwware, new USB 3.0 connector-cable , and improved protocols ( SCSI over USB UAS & USAP ) most of the new benefits of USB 3.0 don't appear.


Note that vendors who have control over both the software and hardware stack ( e.g., higher end PCI-e card vendors in the pro capture space) did manage to get products out quicker.

The vendors who depend upon the OS vendors to provide core services will trail behind. In part because the system stack is spread over several organizations with different R&D timelines.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:16 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by theluggage View Post
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/ec...sschassis.html (but if you need to ask the price you can't afford it).

...but yes, I don't understand what's preventing someone doing a decent dock.
Except that enclosure probably costs 1000.00... when I thought Thunderbolt was merely an extension of PCI-E.

What a failure
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:19 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by John.B View Post
Thunderbolt is a prosumer-level technology, it's not designed to be a USB replacement. It's effectively a PCI-e bus extension. If you don't need what that offers then a USB 3.0 external drive might be all you ever need.
So in other words... It's going to go the same way as FireWire?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:34 PM   #83
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So in other words... It's going to go the same way as FireWire?
Yes. Only faster
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:38 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
Yes. Only faster
Faster to die?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:39 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by mrsir2009 View Post
So in other words... It's going to go the same way as FireWire?
Which is fine, considering FireWire is still with us, in 2013. Again, have you boys read the Jason Ziller interview PC Mag did in February 2011 where all of this is already stated ?

I'm shocked you people are still surprised, 2 years later, when someone says Thunderbolt is not meant to replace USB 3.0.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:44 PM   #86
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nothing to do with the fact that USB 3 is going to do to thunderbolt what USB did to firewire, drive it into a being a tiny market for a few professionals....

can we have our normal display port back now plz apple on iMacs so we can use it a monitor for things like playstations and xboxs again
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 01:59 PM   #87
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Average computer user does not need Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is just an Olympic gold medal won by Intel, more Gb/s than others.

Mac is niche, and Thunderbolt is niche in the niche. niche-niche
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:01 PM   #88
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I don't think many are surprised that TB is not meant to replace USB; I think the shock is the high number of ports assigned by Apple on Macs to TB in light of its (limited) functionality at the moment. IMO, one TB port on a Mac is more than sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Which is fine, considering FireWire is still with us, in 2013. Again, have you boys read the Jason Ziller interview PC Mag did in February 2011 where all of this is already stated ?

I'm shocked you people are still surprised, 2 years later, when someone says Thunderbolt is not meant to replace USB 3.0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
nothing to do with the fact that USB 3 is going to do to thunderbolt what USB did to firewire, drive it into a being a tiny market for a few professionals....

can we have our normal display port back now plz apple on iMacs so we can use it a monitor for things like playstations and xboxs again
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:34 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Radio View Post
Why not use USB 3?
That's what I want to use thunderbolt for, mainly:

Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 adapter!

And secondarily external graphics cards and possibly a hub (for displays, GB ethernet and some audio stuff).
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Last edited by apfeljonas; Jan 15, 2013 at 02:35 PM. Reason: added a bit more info
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:46 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by apple-win View Post
Average computer user does not need Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is just an Olympic gold medal won by Intel, more Gb/s than others.

Mac is niche, and Thunderbolt is niche in the niche. niche-niche
This may be true. However, at least within that niche^2, TB delivers. It REALLY delivers. I use an external TB RAID for video assets where the speed of access has to be comparable to that of an internal drive. The performance has been excellent and reliability has been, thus far, without defects noted. For those who need a good-enough solution at a low price point, USB 3 should suffice; for those who need specific functionality even if it costs more, TB is there. The free market at work.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:51 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilgrim2812 View Post
Intel can read the writing on the wall. USB will eventually do in Thunderbolt. They are pricing it out of existence like SCSI and firewire before.
I beg to differ; it may eventually be relegated to 'niche' status, but it will co-exist. It is in fact a Godsend for many professional users, power users or anyone manipulating large-to-huge files. It has great future potential, and imho, a solid future; niche status or not.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:29 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
I think you forget that PCs had FireWire too. Macs always were and always will be just a small subset of the PC market - above the average in terms of specs but not the high end.
It is a premium connector. Just like getting Firewire 400 on my motherboard, Thunderbolt is an option on +US$179 motherboards. You are not going to use it over USB 3.0.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:12 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by John.B View Post
Thunderbolt is a prosumer-level technology, it's not designed to be a USB replacement. It's effectively a PCI-e bus extension. If you don't need what that offers then a USB 3.0 external drive might be all you ever need.
Its a dead standard is more accurate. It didn't catch on and it won't. Considering the high speed usb 3.0 is coming out very soon I see no reason at all for it, especially since usb 3.0 high speed will be backwards and forwards compatible. I can't believe apple really gave most of their laptops two thunderbolt ports. What a waste. Give us another usb next time.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:24 PM   #94
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If Apply really wants to compete with USB, they should be making Lighting to Thunderbolt. Not Lighting to USB.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 04:34 PM   #95
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When improvements coming.. My Thunderbolt Macs are getting old and replaced already .. So .. Meh
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:20 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by roadbloc View Post
Meh. Its probably too late for Thunderbolt to be adopted at a large scale. USB 3, despite not being as good, is backward compatible to the many many many USB 2 + 1 devices out there.

I'm not buying new peripherals, I'll stick to USB.
Did anybody in his right mind ever thought TB could rival USB 3? USB 3 has huge installed base of USB 2 devices that can be plugged into a USB 3 port. It had the first mover advantage on PCs (only on Macs did TB get a one-year head start). Even if the underlying technology would have had the same price, USB 3 would have had economies of scale that would make it cheaper and because it is cheaper it would keep the economies of scale that make it cheaper.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post
Thunderbolt is a prosumer-level technology, it's not designed to be a USB replacement. It's effectively a PCI-e bus extension. If you don't need what that offers then a USB 3.0 external drive might be all you ever need.
PCI Express must also be an abject failure because so few computers have it.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by theluggage View Post
I don't think it ever was going to be a viable competitor to USB3 for consumer applications: you don't need Thunderbolt to attach a backup drive or a memory stick.
We never had FW 'USB' sticks. For good reasons: (a) USB 2 was fast enough and (b) for casual data transfer sticking to the most widely used standard is right approach.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:38 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Which is fine, considering FireWire is still with us, in 2013. Again, have you boys read the Jason Ziller interview PC Mag did in February 2011 where all of this is already stated ?

I'm shocked you people are still surprised, 2 years later, when someone says Thunderbolt is not meant to replace USB 3.0.
When you hype up the the presumed expectations, the contrast to the existing situation becomes much more pronounced. Slamming TB is just more fun when you can make the gap between where it is now and where it was supposed be larger.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:39 PM   #98
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It's all Intel's fault!
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:40 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
nothing to do with the fact that USB 3 is going to do to thunderbolt what USB did to firewire, drive it into a being a tiny market for a few professionals....
I'd say 90% of all FW devices were sold to non-professionals (as in audio or video professionals). I'm certainly not an audio or video professional but all my devices are FW.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 05:56 PM   #100
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I've never been a fan of USB for the fact that it has the CPU doing the heavy lifting of data transfer. It's fine for mice and keyboards, but when copying files the CPU can't just idle at minimum speed - it often ends up revving up to speed, which sucks on portables.

In contrast, FireWire and Thunderbolt do the heavy lifting themselves while the CPU has no hand in it at all. It's the whole reason why they can daisy-chain while USB cannot.
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