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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:13 PM   #26
d0nK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windlasher View Post
I think the EU ruling is actually screwing the customer.

The problem is that the 2years only covers original defects not things that break. If you have a nervous tick, and press the home button a bazillion times, thats not covered. Break the screen, NOPE! Thats probably normal wear and tear and you being a spaz.

Apple care covers the normal wear and tear. I have had Apple replace a phone that stopped where the home button randomly stopped working without any questions because it was under applecare.

Now Apple can tell those in the EU to go to hell. I'm not saying they will, but I think AC gives you a bit more options.
No.
If the Home button breaks within two years of usage then it is not considered a reasonable amount of time for your product to last. This is considered as an original defect; durability, "lastability" all begins at point of purchase. Only if Apple can prove that you threw your phone down the toilet or something as such, can this original defect issue be refuted.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:14 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by inlinevolvo View Post
Are European consumers generally uninformed misfits? I don't live in Europe and even I know about the 2 year warranty. Just another frivolous suit to line the pockets of lawyers.
AppleCare (something I never purchase) goes beyond a simple warranty even coving accidental damage and support. It would make sense to offer a "light" version with less cost than the US since you have a mandated 2 year anyway (adding to the overall cost to start with).
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
Primacy of EU law applies. 2 year warranty in Greece.
Primacy of everybody else's interest over my own in this country...
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by inlinevolvo View Post
Are European consumers generally uninformed misfits? I don't live in Europe and even I know about the 2 year warranty. Just another frivolous suit to line the pockets of lawyers.
I live in the EU and I know nothing about a two year EU warranty. I am, however, aware of an EU directive from 1999 that mandated a minimum two year guarantee for purchases for which the expected useful life was deemed to be at least that long. The word 'warranty' did not appear once in that directive.

Warranties > guarantees. So much misreporting on this key issue from journalists who don't know the difference.

Consumer laws in the UK have provided for a guarantee from 5 to 6 years since 1979, so this directive was mostly irrelevant here.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:19 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by asiga View Post
This 2-year warranty is the same as AppleCare's, because if a product fails in the second year and the failure cannot be proven to be caused by wrong use of the product, it's assumed to be caused by original defects.

The same applies to AppleCare: If I drop my iPhone and the display glass breaks, AppleCare won't cover it. Just like the European 2-year warranty.
Actually, Apple Care covers two incidental damage coverage cases with a replacement cost of $50. So if in the first year of iPhone ownership you break your phone, it only costs $50 to get a new one.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by asiga View Post
I live in Europe, and if a component of a product fails during the first two years, and such failure cannot be explained by normal wear, it's covered by the 2year warranty.

If a battery fails, it's covered. If a display fails, it's covered, if anything that it's expected to last more than 2 years fails, it's covered.

You don't need to prove it was defective at purchase point, because if it lasts less than its expected lifetime, it's logical to imply that it was defective at purchase point.

I'm talking not as a lawyer (I'm not a lawyer), but as my experience as consumer.

Also, I must say I've used the 2year warranty very little times in my lifetime. I believe less than 5 times, because all products last more than two years before failure, at least from my experience.
thats not true at least in Germany.


"Gewährleistung" (warranty i guess)
24 months BY LAW
first 6 months - the company is reliable and has to prove that it was functional
after 6 months - the customer has to prove that it was broken/dysfunctional from the beginning, which is nearly impossible because what are the odds that u only notice a dysfunctional product after 6 months right?

"Garantie" (quarantee?)
VOLUNTARILY given from the company

a failed battery would be "Garantie" for example and voluntarily given from the company. lets say to have a better image or better customer support than your competition

no one forces apple to repair/replace ANYTHING if it fails after a year or so (they do it voluntarily) now if it was broken from the beginning the "Gewährleistung" would kick in and apple would have to replace it anyway

u see? we are already confused on here
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Last edited by bushido; Jan 15, 2013 at 02:29 PM.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:25 PM   #32
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Solution == Stop selling AppleCare in Europe. Problem solved.

Let the consumer try to get it repaired under their local government laws.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
Solution == Stop selling AppleCare in Europe. Problem solved.

Let the consumer try to get it repaired under their local government laws.
I think AppleCare is even more profitable than the device they're selling it for, so... No.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:30 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asiga View Post
I live in Europe, and if a component of a product fails during the first two years, and such failure cannot be explained by normal wear, it's covered by the 2year warranty.

If a battery fails, it's covered. If a display fails, it's covered, if anything that it's expected to last more than 2 years fails, it's covered.

You don't need to prove it was defective at purchase point, because if it lasts less than its expected lifetime, it's logical to imply that it was defective at purchase point.

I'm talking not as a lawyer (I'm not a lawyer), but as my experience as consumer.
Unless the consumer laws in your country specifically state assumed liability on behalf of the retailer what you have written is contrary to the EU directive issued in 1999. After six months you have to demonstrate that any failure in your purchase is not due to misuse, excessive wear and tear or other factors. It is not logical to assume that faults that develop must necessarily have been there at the time of purchase. If the court assumes otherwise, that is grounds for the retailer to appeal.

The above applies to malfunctions. If the product is not fit for purpose or not as described, then absolute liability lies with the retailer.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:32 PM   #35
Gasu E.
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Originally Posted by Padraig View Post
Primacy of EU law applies. 2 year warranty in Greece.
A couple of things come to mind:

1. I often see Europeans complaining that they pay higher prices than we in the USA do. Based on this law, they should be paying more.

2. If it's an EU-wide law, than they should be sued on an EU-wide basis, rather than having to go through a bunch of repetitive lawsuits by various governments on a case-by-case basis. This system seems quite disfunctional.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:39 PM   #36
weckart
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Originally Posted by Gasu E. View Post
If it's an EU-wide law, than they should be sued on an EU-wide basis, rather than having to go through a bunch of repetitive lawsuits by various governments on a case-by-case basis. This system seems quite disfunctional.
No go. There is no EU superstate to sue. Each member state has to incorporate EU mandated directives into its own legislation. Some go beyond that.

The only pan-European cases are those that involve the European Court of Justice (non-EU), which tend to involve human rights issues.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:40 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
Solution == Stop selling AppleCare in Europe. Problem solved.

Let the consumer try to get it repaired under their local government laws.
See that's the point...Apple stuff doesn't know about the local law...and how should they? Apple is obviously not very clear about it...I already had two discussions about this with the Apple store, where they refused to repair my iPhone 4S. First issue was for a broken EDGE antenna...I could only get 3G connection. Apple said it is well beyond the first year of their warranty, but I knew I they to repair it because of European/German law. Well a few minutes later and talking to the big boss in store and making a pretty big scene they finally replaced it. Needless to say Apple is the only store I know that makes it such a hassle...everybody else replaces it no questions asked (I love amazon.de for that in fact...they send the replacement out before they even received the defective unit)c Apple has uniformed staff and this is a major problem. One would considered that some portion off their huge profit margin goes into their supposedly superior store experience...it obviously does not and that just feels generally wrong with their premium products.

Also may I remind my American friend: US Apple Care > European Apple Care. We don't get the insurance policy that you have. All we get is just an extended warrantiy meaning only defective parts out of a bad charge gets replaced. Accidental damage is not covered at all! So yeah I understand why people are mad with Apple. First we pay more for Apple products already, second Apple is not very clear about what is being covered, third Apple care is more expensive here and fourth it does not even cover the same things it does in the US.

Oh and please...next time some American thinks he has to be super smart about European economy: may I remind that this all started with the sublim credit crisis in the US. Last time I checked the US is completely broke. No one is going to bail you out...guess with all the FOX news you guys just don't get it yet...well keep bashing Greece...it'll come back at you!
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:44 PM   #38
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Europeans. Gotta love um. They always "just get it" the first time.

LMAO.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:46 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by NoNothing View Post
Actually, Apple Care covers two incidental damage coverage cases with a replacement cost of $50. So if in the first year of iPhone ownership you break your phone, it only costs $50 to get a new one.
That only applies to AppleCare+ which isn't available in Europe.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:54 PM   #40
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Apple should buy Europe and shut it down.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by inlinevolvo View Post
Are European consumers generally uninformed misfits? I don't live in Europe and even I know about the 2 year warranty. Just another frivolous suit to line the pockets of lawyers.
Well, sir, you are wrong. There is NO such thing as "EU Warranty". I posted a comment about this on 9to5mac, so I'll paste it here for clarification:

Quote:
The law in EU is not that you get 2 year warranty for free. It never was. There is a clear difference between AppleCare (or any other warranty) and the EU regulations.

EU regulations state that each product gets 2 year "coverage" for faults and defects that were present at the time of purchase. This coverage goes for 2 years. In order to be affected by this "coverage", one needs to prove that the product was faulty at the time of purchase. Here it gets tricky: individual who needs to prove that a defect was present at the time of purchase changes after 6 months of the date of purchase. In the first 6 months the retailer is obligated to prove that the sold product was faulty. This usually results in free repair/replacement, since as a consumer you do not have to do anything. After the 6 months period, the customer is obligated to prove that the defect was present at the time of purchase. If the customer is unable or unwilling to do so, there is no coverage, warranty or whatever you want to call it.

Warranty however is optional. You can get warranty raging from 0 days to lifetime warranty. This does not affect the EU regulations.

I intentionally say "coverage" since it is not called a "warranty" in Europe. In Germany we do have a special word for it. It is called "Gewährleistung". You can google it and see the difference
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 02:58 PM   #42
sinser
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I live in Italy, and yes Apple has always been ambiguos about the warranty on its products claiming 1 year warranty instead of 2. I can see that this is an Apple forum of Apple fans (as am I) but I can't understand why people prefer to defend Apple instead of customers legal rights.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:12 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by needfx View Post
next stop, Greece

they insist of having a 1-year warranty in Greece while EU demands a 2-year stretch.

yes, Greece is still in the EU. For now.
Two different games actually. Apple's one year is on anything they make so long as it was bought at an authorized reseller or direct from Apple, on any issue that isn't proven user damage regardless of when it occurred

The EU law is more of a lemon law that is for repairs/return from the seller for issues that existed at time of purchase. And in many countries after 4-6 months it is up to you to prove it existed when you bought it.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by asiga View Post
No matter how much I love Apple products, I don't understand why we're forced to accept the AppStore policies if we use the AppStore, but however Apple isn't forced to adhere to law in every country they operate.

I think this shouldn't be a matter of consumer groups claims, but simply that if you bought an Apple product in Europe and it fails during the second year, you should go to Apple and ask for the (mandatory by law) 2-year warranty. If they don't accept, then sue them.

I don't understand why selling on a country doesn't imply you accept that country law, while using the AppStore implies you accept the AppStore policies. Just absurd.
You need to understand what the EU warranty is: "covers original defects shipped". Apple care covers almost everything. Beyond the 1st year, Apple has no obligation to service your machine for free
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Brian Y View Post
.

Under the EU consumer law, before 6 months, Apple is obligated to repair any defect.
If you bought it from Apple. If you bought it from Frankie's Computer Emporium, you have to go back there.

Under Apple's limited warranty, they will cover it regardless of where you bought it. Same with Apple Care. That is a very important distinction that many don't get

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erwin-Br View Post
I think AppleCare is even more profitable than the device they're selling it for, so... No.
You would be very wrong. Apple makes little to no money on Apple Care, training etc.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:21 PM   #46
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This is one reason I'm going through a reseller who is giving me a UPS for getting AppleCare with my 27" iMac, largely offsetting the cost.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:22 PM   #47
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Apple said it is well beyond the first year of their warranty, but I knew I they to repair it because of European/German law. Well a few minutes later and talking to the big boss in store and making a pretty big scene they finally replaced it.
More likely they didn't have to replace it under law, they did it because they wanted to shut you up and get rid of you. Sometimes it's just not worth dealing with folks like you so they bend over and take it. Cost of doing business.
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:27 PM   #48
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:35 PM   #49
Plutonius
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Originally Posted by Galatian View Post
See that's the point...Apple stuff doesn't know about the local law...and how should they? Apple is obviously not very clear about it...I already had two discussions about this with the Apple store, where they refused to repair my iPhone 4S. First issue was for a broken EDGE antenna...I could only get 3G connection. Apple said it is well beyond the first year of their warranty, but I knew I they to repair it because of European/German law. Well a few minutes later and talking to the big boss in store and making a pretty big scene they finally replaced it. Needless to say Apple is the only store I know that makes it such a hassle...everybody else replaces it no questions asked (I love amazon.de for that in fact...they send the replacement out before they even received the defective unit)c Apple has uniformed staff and this is a major problem. One would considered that some portion off their huge profit margin goes into their supposedly superior store experience...it obviously does not and that just feels generally wrong with their premium products.

Also may I remind my American friend: US Apple Care > European Apple Care. We don't get the insurance policy that you have. All we get is just an extended warrantiy meaning only defective parts out of a bad charge gets replaced. Accidental damage is not covered at all! So yeah I understand why people are mad with Apple. First we pay more for Apple products already, second Apple is not very clear about what is being covered, third Apple care is more expensive here and fourth it does not even cover the same things it does in the US.

Oh and please...next time some American thinks he has to be super smart about European economy: may I remind that this all started with the sublim credit crisis in the US. Last time I checked the US is completely broke. No one is going to bail you out...guess with all the FOX news you guys just don't get it yet...well keep bashing Greece...it'll come back at you!
So you agree with me that Apple should stop selling Applecare in the EU ?
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Old Jan 15, 2013, 03:37 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by asiga View Post
For example, if a laptop battery loses a fraction of its capacity during these two years, it's considered normal wear.

But if the battery dies and needs replacement, it's not a cause of wear, because batteries are expected to last more than two years. So this is covered by the 2year warranty.=
A laptop battery is expected to last a certain number of charges, not a number of years. Four years ago, MacBooks used batteries that were expected to last 300 charges, now they use batteries that are expected to last 1000 charges.

It would be hard to achieve, but if you manage to get 1000 charges in a year and the battery dies, I don't think that is Apple's problem. But most people wouldn't be anywhere near 1000 charges in two years, and in that case I would consider a dead battery to be defective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by etrinh View Post
You need to understand what the EU warranty is: "covers original defects shipped". Apple care covers almost everything. Beyond the 1st year, Apple has no obligation to service your machine for free
Just to make this clear: A product can have a defect and still work fine for a while, but the defect can lead to the product breaking much earlier than it should. It's quite simple: If something breaks, it is either (a) normal wear and tear, or (b) you or someone else broke it, or (c) it broke because it was badly made and therefore defective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinser View Post
I live in Italy, and yes Apple has always been ambiguos about the warranty on its products claiming 1 year warranty instead of 2. I can see that this is an Apple forum of Apple fans (as am I) but I can't understand why people prefer to defend Apple instead of customers legal rights.
Because all these people claiming Apple has to give 2 years warranty are confusing warranty with statutory rights. Apple (the manufacturer) can give you as much or as little manufacturer's warranty as they like. The store where you buy is responsible that the product is of reasonable quality, and usually that means it shouldn't stop working within two years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macs4nw View Post
APPLE should do the right thing and clearly and unambiguously explain this to their European customers, and adjust their European warranty coverages accordingly.
Have a look at the UK website (store.apple.com/uk). Apple does indeed explain what rights its customers have - especially that _the seller_ is responsible for the quality of the product, which includes Apple being responsible for non-Apple products that you buy at an Apple Store. Apple does _not_ have to change its warranty in any way. The consumer rights against Apple that you have if you buy any product from an Apple Store (the important thing being not whether you buy an Apple product, but whether you buy from an Apple store), you have those rights without Apple saying anything about it.

Last edited by gnasher729; Jan 15, 2013 at 03:58 PM.
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