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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:12 AM   #76
gnasher729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
1. Yes. The EU regulation is meant to protect consumers by forcing companies to honour good engineering practices and not produce crap. Similar to laws regarding food. Else producers would quite happily mix animal dung into your food supply if they have a chance to get away with it.
No, they are meant to protect consumers by forcing _sellers_ to sell good stuff and not crap. They also protect consumers by forcing the _seller_ who is usually nearby to take responsibility and not move it on to the manufacturer, who may be difficult to find, difficult to contact, and difficult to force to do anything for you even if you have legal rights.

If the onus was on the manufacturer, the store would rather sell you cheap crap because they make the sale (when you buy cheap crap that looks exactly the same as the good but more expensive item in the next store), and _they_ wouldn't have to face the consequences.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibjoshua View Post
You're right. The automatic 1 year warranty is worthless in NZ because you're already covered for longer by the CGA. In fact I've always felt like the Applecare they offer in NZ is misleading on Apple's behalf. You can imagine them thinking: "I hope she doesn't know about the CGA..."
It's like selling sand to (hopefully blind) arabs and I'm guessing, getting away with it .
The manufacturer's warranty is not worthless. It protects you if the seller goes bankrupt. It protects you if the seller refuses to fix your problem for any reason (if the seller claims for example that you caused the damage yourself and refuses to fix the problem, you can ask Apple to fix it). It protects you when your device breaks while you are far away from the seller; if your MacBook Pro breaks during a holiday in New York, you can go to an Apple Store in New York and they will fix it.

Last edited by gnasher729; Jan 16, 2013 at 05:18 AM.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:57 AM   #77
Veri
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That regulation puts the onus on the consumer between 6 months and 2 years is almost irrelevant.

You think Apple "assumes" the fault is with them when they take in a product? Of course not. First, they establish whether it's the consumer's fault. If it isn't, then the fault must be with Apple, so they repair it.

Similarly, if you have a product which can be expected to last more than 2 years, and it does not, then you first demonstrate that it is unlikely that the consumer caused it. If the consumer did not cause the fault, it must have been due to something wrong at the time of purchase: because otherwise it would still be working. A plausible explanation for how the defect was caused by Apple is all that's required - in particular, the explanation merely needs to be more plausible than "customer did it". There's no "beyond reasonable doubt" required here - it's just on the balance of probabilities.

Similarly, if I have a regular coin tossed onto a flat surface, and we have evidence that it doesn't land on tails, then "on the balance of probabilities" it will have landed on heads. We don't have to know the exact behaviour of that particular coin. We just have to know that coins have only two flat sides: heads and tails, so coins are likely to land on one or the other. The pedantic reader will likely raise the point that a coin may land on its circumference: yes, but that's really unlikely.

Last edited by Veri; Jan 16, 2013 at 06:06 AM.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 06:48 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Veri View Post
That regulation puts the onus on the consumer between 6 months and 2 years is almost irrelevant.

You think Apple "assumes" the fault is with them when they take in a product? Of course not. First, they establish whether it's the consumer's fault. If it isn't, then the fault must be with Apple, so they repair it.

Similarly, if you have a product which can be expected to last more than 2 years, and it does not, then you first demonstrate that it is unlikely that the consumer caused it. If the consumer did not cause the fault, it must have been due to something wrong at the time of purchase: because otherwise it would still be working. A plausible explanation for how the defect was caused by Apple is all that's required - in particular, the explanation merely needs to be more plausible than "customer did it". There's no "beyond reasonable doubt" required here - it's just on the balance of probabilities.

Similarly, if I have a regular coin tossed onto a flat surface, and we have evidence that it doesn't land on tails, then "on the balance of probabilities" it will have landed on heads. We don't have to know the exact behaviour of that particular coin. We just have to know that coins have only two flat sides: heads and tails, so coins are likely to land on one or the other. The pedantic reader will likely raise the point that a coin may land on its circumference: yes, but that's really unlikely.
Is this real? Do shops require you to prove the cause of failure? Did you ever go to court when a product failed under warranty?

I'm 40 now, and never, ever, in my lifetime was I told to prove anything when a product failed under warranty. Just go to the shop with the product, tell them the product failed, show them the warranty sheet, and never had a question from them. They'd send it for repair (or tell me the closest service facility otherwise), and that's it, free repair, case closed. No questions, no court, no whatever. At least this has been the way of doing things for these 40 years, but I'm talking from personal experience, of course.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 07:50 AM   #79
Grohowiak
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Originally Posted by bassfingers View Post
Oh goodness, how dare apple not tell customers about the 2-year warranty which only covers *ORIGINAL* defects. Therefore covering nothing.

After the first year of AppleCare, Apple has no obligation to service a machine. (unless the customer can prove that the computer shipped with said defect)

Apple also has no customer service obligation to supporting machines for customers who do not pay for the support

EDIT: in response to Radio:

several reasons:

1. Somebody has to pay for everything. The 'people' never get anything for free

2. If apple is forced to go beyond the EU regulation for customers, it devalues the AppleCare others purchased

3. Haven't europeans figured out what happens when they try to give everyone everything? They wind up like Greece. Somebody pays for everything. Whether they agree to it or not
WiFi on my iPad 2 died about 2 weeks ago. It's in its 17th month since purchase. Service center already acknowledged it and it's sending me a replacement unit.
So stop talking out of the sky.
Of course it works.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 09:02 AM   #80
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I find the way Apple handles warranty in the EU very misleading. They avoid EU warranty on the websites of EU countries, I even know of Apple resellers that put a little note next to the Apple products stating that you only have 1 year warranty (when the reseller is in fact obligated to offer 2 years).

Applecare is pushed as an extention of a 1 year warranty.

Apple is a premium product and they pride themselves making the best products at the highest quality standards. I really don't understand why this is such a problem for them unless they don't actually stand behind what they are saying.

In fact, they should just drop Applecare and offer a 3 year worldwide warranty on ALL their products. They would not be the first premium brand who does this and it would even more justify the pricetag on their products.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 09:43 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Windlasher View Post
I think the EU ruling is actually screwing the customer.

The problem is that the 2years only covers original defects not things that break. If you have a nervous tick, and press the home button a bazillion times, thats not covered. Break the screen, NOPE! Thats probably normal wear and tear and you being a spaz.

Apple care covers the normal wear and tear. I have had Apple replace a phone that stopped where the home button randomly stopped working without any questions because it was under applecare.

Now Apple can tell those in the EU to go to hell. I'm not saying they will, but I think AC gives you a bit more options.
The EU directive states that the said device should work without problems for a period of two years. If the device fails in any way within this timeframe then the manufacturer is required to repair or replace the device. This does not cover theft or deliberate / accidental damage to the device.

For example if a component inside your iphone fails from normal use then you will have it repaired or replaced free of charge.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 11:43 AM   #82
SilenceBe
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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
The issue is Apple advertises it as "you need our applecare otherwise after 1 year you wont have any warranty". They could make it a bit more clear that it's on top of the EU warranty.
The issue is - speaking as a Belgian citizen - is that everything comes with a 2 year warranty (with some exceptions) That is how it is and it has been for more then 30 years.

1) When Apple products break in the second year they refuse to repair it under warranty. In the end getting stuff repaired mostly involves threatening with a lawsuit before Apple comply.

2) They tell people that if they want to have warranty in the second year, they need to buy Applecare. Which is false!

That is plain against local law. Easy as pie.

Quote:
The idiots in Brussels dont really care about actually following through with anything unless it makes them money.
Those idiots in Brussels don't have anything to do with Test Aankoop but then again you are from the UK. When it rains in London it is probably also because of Brussels.

BTW the EU directives is something that member countries should at minimum implement. The EU directive for the most part is what we had for some time now. As far as I know, the warranty laws in the Netherlands and even the UK are a lot stricter as there is a pseudo expectancy in how long an appliance should work. A 2000 euro costing laptop shouldn't break in the first or even second year.

Then again I'm a normal Apple user, for me it isn't a religion as such. And I have applecare btw just because I don't want to bicker with Apple when something goes wrong.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 01:10 PM   #83
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This is probably because some incompetent people at Apple Inc. never took the question seriously. And now the market share for tablets is dominated by Android. After selling my Ipad 2, I am seriously considering a Galaxy Tab 2, because a) I will not have to replace my tablet if I use all the memory b) I won't have to use Itunes to copy my music and films...
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 02:36 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by asiga View Post
Is this real? Do shops require you to prove the cause of failure? Did you ever go to court when a product failed under warranty?

I'm 40 now, and never, ever, in my lifetime was I told to prove anything when a product failed under warranty. Just go to the shop with the product, tell them the product failed, show them the warranty sheet, and never had a question from them. They'd send it for repair (or tell me the closest service facility otherwise), and that's it, free repair, case closed. No questions, no court, no whatever. At least this has been the way of doing things for these 40 years, but I'm talking from personal experience, of course.
It happened to me many years ago. I bought a very expensive VCR from Dixons, which stopped working suddenly just over a year later. I took it to a local repair shop thinking it just needed a quick service and was told by it that there was some unusual soldering around the motor, which looked as if it had been done after the VCR had come off the production line. This botched post-production work had caused the motor to fail prematurely in the opinion of the repair shop and I was advised to go to Dixons as a repair would be costly.

I spoke with Dixons customer service based in Uxbridge at the time. I was told that Dixons would not repair the VCR under warranty as these were very "reliable" and the fault must be due to me. Almost in the same breath, the CS flunkey told me that Dixons would be prepared to repair it for a cost and that I was not to worry as the procedure would be a "usual repair" for this model of VCR. Clearly, Dixon's CS had never heard of the maxim "Liars should have good memories". Nonetheless, CS would not budge even when confronted with its duplicity and refused to refer me to management. I was told that if I was not satisfied I could take Dixons to court.

Unfortunately, both Jessops and HMV have gone into administration this week whilst DSG is still soiling the High Street with its presence.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 02:54 PM   #85
Sue De Nimes
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Originally Posted by JanBE View Post
In fact, they should just drop Applecare and offer a 3 year worldwide warranty on ALL their products. They would not be the first premium brand who does this and it would even more justify the pricetag on their products.
This.

If they want to charge premium prices they should act like a manufacturer of premium products.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:41 PM   #86
Veri
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Originally Posted by asiga View Post
Is this real? Do shops require you to prove the cause of failure?
The EU law under discussion only entitles the consumer to a fix if the fault was inherent, and the burden of proof switches to the consumer after 6 months, so the seller could want some sort of proof in theory. But in practice the argument is usually so simple (as presented) that no reputable firm would insult the customer by asking for such proof. If there is no good evidence that the customer caused the problem, and the product has not reached the end of its expected life, then the only plausible explanation is that there was a fault present at sale. On the balance of probabilities, it's the seller's fault.

Manufacturer/retailer guarantees are usually exactly the same: they'll fix the problem as long as it wasn't caused by you or natural end-of-life. There may be no theoretical burden of proof on the consumer here, but the difference is negligible because the bar is so low.

The upshot of this is that any seller who knows EU law will fix your product unless it's obvious that you've broken it. Some of the less honourable ones - Apple among them - will fit e.g. moisture detectors to try to catch out the customer. But then they'll deny you service whether you have AppleCare or not.

Very rarely - see e.g. DSG example above (why anyone buys from Currys/Dixons is beyond me) - a well-known company decides it's going to take an alternative position out of sheer bloodymindedness. This is really just a game of chicken, as the company knows it'll waste more money on legal work than replacing the lemon it sold.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 07:31 PM   #87
hamkor04
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Originally Posted by clukas View Post
I often experienced apple staff (including apple geniuses) misleading customers in their stores. I actually think this is good and customers should be made clear what they purchase before they purchase so they can perform an educated decision. I don't think businesses should exploit the naivety of their customers.
yeah totally

In Cardiff, UK Apple store one of the guys what ever they called, I call them seller, one day he just open GOOGLE and typing my questions to get the answer. But, I didn't ask anything Android related, just asked him some obvious question about macs (to be hones, sometimes I go and just ask them random questions).

yes, remember, I think they called a "Specialist"
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 08:19 PM   #88
AppliedMicro
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On a different (but related) note, Switzerland is another country has just extended defects liability period from one to two years as well. This was not mandated by EU directive sureley somewhat politically "inspired" by it.

However, Apple still makes a difference:

http://www.apple.com/chde/legal/statutory-warranty/

The situation is a mess - and a highly publicized one at that, with mass media prominently denouncing these differentiation as "scam". They are have specifically been targeting Apple and Apple resellers to make an example. Of course, anything Apple doesn't just make good headlines - their "premium" image also lends itself well to the topic at hand. Anyway, even the more obstinate electronics resellers have introduced two year-warranty periods as a reaction, effectively ending the differentiation between "warranty required by law" and their own, according to sales terms.

We all know that Apple likes their products and associated warranties uniform across the globe. And their decision-making is heavily US-centric. But frankly, with pretty much any country in Europe now requiring two years in consumer protection laws, I think they should come forward an extend their standard warranty to (these same) two years in Europe. Of course, that would make current AppleCare somewhat pointless, at least at current prices. But right now, it's just too much of a mess:

- One year manufacturer's warranty (worldwide, from Apple)
- Two years warranty by many resellers (which, granted, many other European resellers don't). Though Apple Stores as sellers are notable exceptions from that.
- Two years defects liability required by Law
- Three years manufacturer's warranty by purchasing AppleCare

Do I like explaining these fine differences to customers? No, I certainly don't. It just makes their products look bad.

Last edited by AppliedMicro; Jan 16, 2013 at 08:26 PM.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 03:44 AM   #89
chrimux
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Originally Posted by Radio View Post
Interesting how people here back up the big corporation (apple) over the people

Oh wait this is macrumours
Overprotecting people is insulting them. Most people who buy something know what they are doing. And, remember, there is the internet. Nowadays, everybody can find every information some mouseclicks away.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 04:54 AM   #90
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3. Haven't europeans figured out what happens when they try to give everyone everything? They wind up like Greece. Somebody pays for everything. Whether they agree to it or not
Because the whole of Europe is in the situation Greece is in
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 07:55 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by hamkor04 View Post
yeah totally

In Cardiff, UK Apple store one of the guys what ever they called, I call them seller, one day he just open GOOGLE and typing my questions to get the answer. But, I didn't ask anything Android related, just asked him some obvious question about macs (to be hones, sometimes I go and just ask them random questions).

yes, remember, I think they called a "Specialist"
Yeah right specialists.

Last time I was at the apple store the so called "specialist" told a woman who wanted to upgrade to ML from SL, that she had to purchase Lion first and could not upgrade directly to ML. I also experienced other mis-guidance resulting customers having to spend more money than necessary.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:37 AM   #92
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Because the whole of Europe is in the situation Greece is in
You mean the state US is in, oh maybe you are a US citizen so you don't know

Why protect Apple, protect us the consumers not the companies!

silly comment
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:44 AM   #93
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You mean the state US is in, oh maybe you are a US citizen so you don't know

Why protect Apple, protect us the consumers not the companies!

silly comment
What are you talking about?
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:25 AM   #94
Frosties
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The issue is not that we European customers don't know our consumer rights, we do; it's that for example Apple Sweden lied to us and knowingly forgot the law and just pushed american apple care. Even that was not the case with Apple Sweden.

One example.

You purchased a macbook pro from the Apple Store. It was DOA. It would not start. It's dead. Do you get to send it back for a new one? NO!! Apple Sweden had as policy not to do this, instead had as policy to demand a repair of the DOA! That is demand! Thereby having your new purchase tied up for weeks in repair before you actually got a working product. Nuts! You only got a refund or a new computer if you got angry and quoted the law. If you didn't quote the law down the telephone you had to send the new computer for repair. They have since just a few years ago stopped this idiocy. Thank you Apple Sweden for this wakeup to customer care. Bit late in the game but there we have it.

Today Apple Sweden have good knowledge of purchase laws and is a friendly place to customers and the apple community in Sweden. It was a ride to get there but now we have actual braincells on the other end of the telephone when you place a call to the apple store.

Last edited by Frosties; Jan 17, 2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:37 PM   #95
mrunix
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What are you talking about?
The US financial situation, since you refered to Greece. US can print more money, Greece can't thats the biggest difference but the economy sucks the same.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:42 PM   #96
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The US financial situation, since you refered to Greece. US can print more money, Greece can't thats the biggest difference but the economy sucks the same.
I didn't refer to Greece and thats absolutely irrelevant to the post I was quoting or point I was making.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:50 PM   #97
Brian Y
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Originally Posted by AppliedMicro View Post
On a different (but related) note, Switzerland is another country has just extended defects liability period from one to two years as well. This was not mandated by EU directive sureley somewhat politically "inspired" by it.

However, Apple still makes a difference:

http://www.apple.com/chde/legal/statutory-warranty/

The situation is a mess - and a highly publicized one at that, with mass media prominently denouncing these differentiation as "scam". They are have specifically been targeting Apple and Apple resellers to make an example. Of course, anything Apple doesn't just make good headlines - their "premium" image also lends itself well to the topic at hand. Anyway, even the more obstinate electronics resellers have introduced two year-warranty periods as a reaction, effectively ending the differentiation between "warranty required by law" and their own, according to sales terms.

We all know that Apple likes their products and associated warranties uniform across the globe. And their decision-making is heavily US-centric. But frankly, with pretty much any country in Europe now requiring two years in consumer protection laws, I think they should come forward an extend their standard warranty to (these same) two years in Europe. Of course, that would make current AppleCare somewhat pointless, at least at current prices. But right now, it's just too much of a mess:

- One year manufacturer's warranty (worldwide, from Apple)
- Two years warranty by many resellers (which, granted, many other European resellers don't). Though Apple Stores as sellers are notable exceptions from that.
- Two years defects liability required by Law
- Three years manufacturer's warranty by purchasing AppleCare

Do I like explaining these fine differences to customers? No, I certainly don't. It just makes their products look bad.
There is a difference though - the 2 year protection is the minimum they have to give by law. The 1 year manufacturers warranty and 3 year applecare are in addition to your statuary rights.

Also, with regard to the DOA post - I'm not sure if any consumer law provides any actual legal rights to a refund if DOA. They may do, but I'm not aware of any country that does.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 04:50 PM   #98
bolibic
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Primacy of everybody else's interest over my own in this country...
Guys, the GR law has 6 months of something like guarantee. Check law 3043/2002.

Article 537: if something fails during the first 6 months, the failure is supposed to be from the day it was bought.

Article 554, you get 2 years to claim that a product is defective or not doing what it should (5 years for houses/properties)

That means that after 6 months you have to show/demonstrate that the failure was from the beginning. You have the right to claim, of course, but you have to show that it was from the beginning.

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Old Jan 17, 2013, 05:37 PM   #99
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Yeah right specialists.

Last time I was at the apple store the so called "specialist" told a woman who wanted to upgrade to ML from SL, that she had to purchase Lion first and could not upgrade directly to ML. I also experienced other mis-guidance resulting customers having to spend more money than necessary.
I know couple of people, who wants real badly work for apple. And they submitted CVs ages ago, im sure they are far more better than those ones who got hired last 10-12 month.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 06:21 PM   #100
AppliedMicro
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Last time I was at the apple store the so called "specialist" told a woman who wanted to upgrade to ML from SL, that she had to purchase Lion first and could not upgrade directly to ML.
I wonder if the lady asked the "specialist" if he/she could show her how to go about this. Cause "purchasing Lion first" is actually an impossible thing to do.

(unless they still have that USB drive on stock that they sold - but if I remember correctly, that was only sold online and isn't sold anymore).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamkor04 View Post
I know couple of people, who wants real badly work for apple. And they submitted CVs ages ago, im sure they are far more better than those ones who got hired last 10-12 month.
Prior Mac experience/skill/knowledge don't really matter when applying for Apple retail.

Apple "casts" their Store sales people by looking out for people having "the right vibe" more than looking at anything else. Basically, your looks and behavior are more important than previous experience.

"What they don't know yet, you can always teach them."
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