Go Back   MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jan 17, 2013, 04:19 PM   #326
Renzatic
macrumors 604
 
Renzatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Who puts the washers in the woods?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LagunaSol View Post
I wonder how many Amazon defenders here have a problem with the Microsoft Office brand. Probably none. If Google changed the name of its productivity suite to Google Office, MS would be all over them like flies on poo.
Actually, Google Office would probably pass. I just (admittedly pretty briefly) checked for it, and it doesn't look like MS has a trademark for "Office" by itself.
Renzatic is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 04:23 PM   #327
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Actually, Google Office would probably pass. I just (admittedly pretty briefly) checked for it, and it doesn't look like MS has a trademark for "Office" by itself.
OpenOffice.org.
NeoOffice
LibreOffice
StarOffice

They all say "Hi!".

Microsoft seems to only hold trademarks over 2 Office logos and the Office 365 appellation, looking at their page :

http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal...rks/EN-US.aspx

But that is besides the point as Microsoft Office isn't an Office! It's a suite of productivity software, not a space rented or bought in a building where desks and conference rooms are arranged so that employees can get work done. As such, it has no relevance to the topic at hand, which is Apple trying to trademark the merely descriptive App Store and is suing Amazon over it, without having gone through the proper 5 year period to achieve Secondary meaning.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 04:29 PM   #328
Renzatic
macrumors 604
 
Renzatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Who puts the washers in the woods?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Snip
You're preaching to the choir, man. :P

...though there is one thing that flies in the face of our arguments. MS has a trademark for SQL Server, which is pretty damn descriptive. Wonder how they managed to hold on to that one.
Renzatic is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 05:00 PM   #329
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
You're preaching to the choir, man. :P

...though there is one thing that flies in the face of our arguments. MS has a trademark for SQL Server, which is pretty damn descriptive. Wonder how they managed to hold on to that one.
Well, 2 way to look at it :

- SQL Server is not actually a server that serves SQL, it's a Relational Database Management System which uses SQL as a DDL, DML and DCL. You don't connect with a client and receive SQL with it

- SQL Server, as a descriptive trademark, same as App Store, would be allowed if Microsoft proved that it had achieved Secondary Meaning. Do people think of Microsoft SQL Server when you say "SQL Server". On that front, I'd say yes, because when talking about Oracle/MySQL/PostgreSQL, you don't think "Hey, those are all SQL Servers", you think "Look at the bunch of RDBMSes".

App Store has not achieved secondary meaning, heck I don't think Apple has even pushed that angle at all yet, which is the only way to get it granted at this point. But to do that, they'll have to win over Amazon first it seems since the USPTO has stayed their procedures and await the trial's outcome (which is completely upside down if you ask me).
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 06:23 PM   #330
kdarling
macrumors G4
 
kdarling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Device engineer 30+ yrs, touchscreens 23+.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macsmurf View Post
I stand corrected.
That goes for me as well.

I had also repeated the story that the trademark was given to Jobs, before I checked on it myself.

In retrospect, it made no sense, as otherwise Amazon would be in violation. Now that we know nobody has a really firm grip on "app store", things fall into place.

One day I'm gonna learn to always take my own advice: NEVER believe anything you read in a tech headline until you or someone you trust goes and checks it for holes!

kdarling is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:53 PM   #331
MacDav
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjohnstone View Post
It's still called "Appstore for Android".
Anyone thinking this will work for their iPhone needs serious help.
Yeah, "AppStore for Android" is about as innovative and original as pea soup. AppStore is not exactly inspired. It's what an 8 year old would call it. An 8 year old would sell lemonade using the title Lemonade stand. A more creative name would be maybe "The Lemon Juice Factory". I guess the the cliché "Keep it simple stupid" comes into play here with Apple's "AppStore" and Amazons "AppStore for Android". To me both names suck and are completely lacking any inspiration.

Last edited by MacDav; Jan 17, 2013 at 09:05 PM.
MacDav is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:09 PM   #332
samcraig
macrumors G5
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LagunaSol View Post
I wonder how many Amazon defenders here have a problem with the Microsoft Office brand. Probably none. If Google changed the name of its productivity suite to Google Office, MS would be all over them like flies on poo.

Amazon could have used an ounce of creativity to come up with something different than AppStore. They chose not to. Sad.
I wonder how many sweeping generalizations you can continue to make about people who just happen to not agree with you on one/some/all things
samcraig is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 18, 2013, 03:00 AM   #333
HelveticaRoman
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Can't lawyers sit still for five minutes without needing to sue someone? Take a day of for heaven's sake.
HelveticaRoman is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 18, 2013, 03:48 AM   #334
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by HelveticaRoman View Post
Can't lawyers sit still for five minutes without needing to sue someone? Take a day of for heaven's sake.
In trademarks, Apple had no choice in suing Amazon. What is perplexing is that they would try to get the trademark in the first place, rather than using a much easier to trademark name like iOS App Store or iTunes App Store.

The Mac has the Mac App Store after all.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:16 AM   #335
HelveticaRoman
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
In trademarks, Apple had no choice in suing Amazon. What is perplexing is that they would try to get the trademark in the first place, rather than using a much easier to trademark name like iOS App Store or iTunes App Store.

The Mac has the Mac App Store after all.
Is the term "App" a trademarked property, or is it a de facto generic by now?
HelveticaRoman is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 18, 2013, 06:47 AM   #336
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by HelveticaRoman View Post
Is the term "App" a trademarked property, or is it a de facto generic by now?
App is simply an abreviation of Application.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 18, 2013, 10:29 AM   #337
HelveticaRoman
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
App is simply an abreviation of Application.
So app really is just the abbreviation of application, and store is the word for a store, and a legal team think this is worth going to war for? Or is it the cunning removal of the space between the two words that constitutes their claim to ownership?
HelveticaRoman is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:18 PM   #338
rjohnstone
macrumors 68030
 
rjohnstone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: PHX, AZ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDav View Post
Yeah, "AppStore for Android" is about as innovative and original as pea soup. AppStore is not exactly inspired. It's what an 8 year old would call it. An 8 year old would sell lemonade using the title Lemonade stand. A more creative name would be maybe "The Lemon Juice Factory". I guess the the cliché "Keep it simple stupid" comes into play here with Apple's "AppStore" and Amazons "AppStore for Android". To me both names suck and are completely lacking any inspiration.
I agree, neither are great names.
They are simple to remember though.
Google's decision to change Android Market to Google Play is odd, but it is more than an Android app store now, so it does make a little sense.
__________________
"You can't really dust for vomit" - Nigel Tuffnel
Some Apple *****, some Android ***** and some Windows based *****.
rjohnstone is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:35 AM   #339
akbarali.ch
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mumbai (India)
Quote:
Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Ohhhh realllllllly now?

Image
Discussion was about the term "Appstore", a branding by a company. Just like Nokia has Ovi store, its a brand, Google has Google Play, again a brand, which is the whole point of the lawsuit and this discussion, not the website listing softwares. You can have your appstore, only, Apple doesn't like them calling Appstore, the branding popularized by Apple but that brand became so popular, so common and so fast that it just became a generic word for all. Nothing personal buddy, i'm just putting my point here.
Another similar cases, for most part of my life i would make Xerox copy of the documents, it was very late i realized the process is actually called photocopy and Xerox is Company, a brand.
Same way, here in India in the early days, nobody called Toothpaste, they asked for Colgate (a Company). i heard people even saying to the Shopkeeper, "Give me a Pepsodant colgate" Both are competing product, but Colgate just became too generic.
__________________
iMac 21.5" i5 2.9GHz 2012; iphone 4S 16GB white; iPad Air Space Grey 16GB Cellular; iPhone 3GS 16GB; iPhone 3GS 8GB; Time Capsule 3TB
akbarali.ch is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 19, 2013, 05:37 PM   #340
samcraig
macrumors G5
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by akbarali.ch View Post
Discussion was about the term "Appstore", a branding by a company. Just like Nokia has Ovi store, its a brand, Google has Google Play, again a brand, which is the whole point of the lawsuit and this discussion, not the website listing softwares. You can have your appstore, only, Apple doesn't like them calling Appstore, the branding popularized by Apple but that brand became so popular, so common and so fast that it just became a generic word for all. Nothing personal buddy, i'm just putting my point here.
Another similar cases, for most part of my life i would make Xerox copy of the documents, it was very late i realized the process is actually called photocopy and Xerox is Company, a brand.
Same way, here in India in the early days, nobody called Toothpaste, they asked for Colgate (a Company). i heard people even saying to the Shopkeeper, "Give me a Pepsodant colgate" Both are competing product, but Colgate just became too generic.
You're missing the point.

Google Play is not the same as App Store.

And ultimately - Amazon isn't even using App Store. They are using AmazonAppstore (graphically) and Appstore for Android.

Apple's main contention is customer confusion. Explain again how a customer would be confused between Apple's App Store and Amazon's?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjohnstone View Post
I agree, neither are great names.
They are simple to remember though.
Google's decision to change Android Market to Google Play is odd, but it is more than an Android app store now, so it does make a little sense.
Exactly. You play with an App, you play music, you play movies. Ok - you don't play books. But ultimately - Google Play works (for me) than just App Store.

Personally - iTunes (and I know I've said this elsewhere and gotten slammed for it) is limiting. iTunes sells so much more than music now. Yet the store AND the icon depict music only.
samcraig is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:51 PM   #341
I WAS the one
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
must show that in trade, consumers and other potential buyers associate the mark you're trying to register to you and you only.
High school pass by, everybody used "Programs".. College pass by and still using "Programs" even my teachers and professors used "Programs" EVEN WHEN WINDOWS ME OR NT USED TO LABEL FOLDERS WITH THE WORD APPS.

Nobody used "Apps" back in the days. Be real.
I WAS the one is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 20, 2013, 04:46 AM   #342
Renzatic
macrumors 604
 
Renzatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Who puts the washers in the woods?
Quote:
Originally Posted by I WAS the one View Post
High school pass by, everybody used "Programs".. College pass by and still using "Programs" even my teachers and professors used "Programs" EVEN WHEN WINDOWS ME OR NT USED TO LABEL FOLDERS WITH THE WORD APPS.

Nobody used "Apps" back in the days. Be real.
"Apps" and "applications" were lesser used term, but still common parlance. It's much the same as "software" in that regard. If Apple used "software store" instead of "app store", would Apple be allowed to trademark what's ultimately a descriptive phrase?

No, they wouldn't. It'd be much the same situation as they're in now. It doesn't matter how often or how little it was used in the past. Word usage changes over time. Apps, applications, programs, and software have been terms bandied about since practically the dawn of the computer age.

Apple didn't invent the word, rather they popularized it so "apps" eventually replaced "programs" as the go-to blanket word for computer code. You can give them credit for that, but it still doesn't allow them to claim ownership of "App Store".
Renzatic is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 20, 2013, 07:41 AM   #343
kdarling
macrumors G4
 
kdarling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Device engineer 30+ yrs, touchscreens 23+.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
App Store has not achieved secondary meaning, heck I don't think Apple has even pushed that angle at all yet, which is the only way to get it granted at this point.
Actually, "secondary meaning" (aka "acquired distinctiveness") is how they got the mark approved for publication in the first place. From my previous post:
  • 2008 Jul - Apple applies for trademark
  • 2009 Mar - USPTO denies trademark, stating: "REFUSAL - MERELY DESCRIPTIVE".
  • 2009 Sep - Apple switches tactics and amends application, now claiming Acquired Distinctiveness.
  • 2009 Dec - use approved pending opposition
  • 2010 Jul - Microsoft files opposition
Apologies if it was confusing.
Quote:
But to do that, they'll have to win over Amazon first it seems since the USPTO has stayed their procedures and await the trial's outcome (which is completely upside down if you ask me).
Plus, Microsoft is the one who gave opposition at the USPTO. They agreed with Apple to wait for the Amazon trial to be over. We don't know if Microsoft will continue to press their case if Amazon loses, or just adjust their arguments.
kdarling is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 20, 2013, 06:08 PM   #344
SlCKB0Y
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by melendezest View Post
I do recall Apple doing something similar with the term iPhone and iOS.
These names aren't descriptive and are valid trademarks, but in this instance the problem Apple faced was that both of these were in use by Cisco.

http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2007/corp_022107b.html
SlCKB0Y is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 20, 2013, 06:20 PM   #345
SlCKB0Y
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by I WAS the one View Post
Even if you want to start yelling "Apple wasn't the first using APPS!!!" Argument. Apple was the one that make popular that word.
What rubbish. The term "app" had been in popular use for well over a decade prior to Apple using it.

Eg: "The definition of "killer app" came up during Bill Gates's questioning in the United States v. Microsoft antitrust suit. Bill Gates had written an email in which he described Internet Explorer as a killer app. In the questioning, he said that the term meant "a popular application".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_application

That was in 1998 and was already a well known phrase prior to that.

Anyone even remotely familiar with the "Warez" scene of the 90's would also be familiar with the common use of both "appz" and "apps" as well.

This OSNews article traces the term "app" to the early 80's:

http://www.osnews.com/story/24882/Th...the_Programmer

Quote:
I've been using Macs and Apple products since 1992. I believe the word we used was "Programs".
Well then either you weren't paying attention, you have a selective memory or the term was just more in use with the MS/Intel crowd.
SlCKB0Y is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 20, 2013, 06:33 PM   #346
SlCKB0Y
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by slffl View Post
And Amazon is a rain forest.
The rainforest did not file with the USPTO for protection of it's name (to my knowledge anyway).

Quote:
Android is a robot with a human appearance. What's your point? You obviously don't understand trademarks.
Between Google's use of the term Android and Nexus, they did end up with legal issues with the estate of Philip K. Dick with regards to his book, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (which was later adapted into the movie Bladerunner).
SlCKB0Y is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 20, 2013, 06:53 PM   #347
SlCKB0Y
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Okay. Then explain it to him. Why is Apple valid? What about Pages? Or hey, Windows? Let's throw in Office for good measure?

Why are these allowed, yet App Store isn't?

Until you figure this out, you have absolutely no room to claim someone doesn't understand trademarks.
1. It wasn't "Apple", it was "Apple Computer" and even this resulted in a decades long legal battle with "Apple Records" (The Beatles music label). This dispute is also why it took so long for the Beatles to end up on iTunes.

2. It's "Microsoft Windows" and "Microsoft Office".
SlCKB0Y is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 20, 2013, 10:42 PM   #348
1=1?
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Revolutionary!

No really. Someone should start a suing company that just trade marks "store", "place", "site", "phone" and "service" and just make billions off of suing and force the stupid competition to stop being so uncreative!
__________________
2009 15" MacBook Pro : i5 2.53GHz;2011 17" MacBook Pro : i7 2.4GHz
iPad : Oldest School

Last edited by 1=1?; Jan 20, 2013 at 10:48 PM.
1=1? is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 26, 2013, 12:00 AM   #349
I WAS the one
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
you have a selective memory or the term was just more in use with the MS/Intel crowd.
Apple made the word popular. Understand the word popular didnt means that all geeks use it on their social circles... Popular as the really cool thing everyone wants because is something you can do with your cool Phone. Really Popular. Not geek popular.

Apple make that word popular. Not Bill Gates, not Xerox or whatever you can find in wikipedia to backup your comment. Apps is something you now hear in a dance club conversation after the word "cool" when someone is showing what the new phone can do with the pictures.

Grow up. Be real. Apple was the one who shows the real world what an App was.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
"Apps" and "applications" were lesser used term, but still common parlance. It's much the same as "software" in that regard. If Apple used "software store" instead of "app store", would Apple be allowed to trademark what's ultimately a descriptive phrase?

No, they wouldn't. It'd be much the same situation as they're in now. It doesn't matter how often or how little it was used in the past. Word usage changes over time. Apps, applications, programs, and software have been terms bandied about since practically the dawn of the computer age.

Apple didn't invent the word, rather they popularized it so "apps" eventually replaced "programs" as the go-to blanket word for computer code. You can give them credit for that, but it still doesn't allow them to claim ownership of "App Store".
Quote:
Apple didn't invent the word, rather they popularized it so "apps" eventually replaced "programs" as the go-to blanket word for computer code
Thanks. You said it best than I did.
I WAS the one is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 26, 2013, 05:54 AM   #350
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by I WAS the one View Post
Apple made the word popular. Understand the word popular didnt means that all geeks use it on their social circles... Popular as the really cool thing everyone wants because is something you can do with your cool Phone. Really Popular. Not geek popular.

Apple make that word popular. Not Bill Gates, not Xerox or whatever you can find in wikipedia to backup your comment. Apps is something you now hear in a dance club conversation after the word "cool" when someone is showing what the new phone can do with the pictures.

Grow up. Be real. Apple was the one who shows the real world what an App was.

----------





Thanks. You said it best than I did.
Making something popular is not part of the rules of Trademarks, so it's a pointless debate. And it was already as popular as "Programs" or plain "Software" before Apple, during Apple and after Apple.

The words have always been interchangeable.

I suggest you go back and read pages 1 to 5, where all of this has been discussed to death instead of necroing the thread to launch that lame conversation again.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   1 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Apple and Samsung Said to Resume Settlement Talks Over Patent Dispute MacRumors iOS Blog Discussion 55 Jan 7, 2014 02:02 PM
Apple and Samsung Still in Settlement Talks, 'No Indication' of Imminent Agreement MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 22 Jul 22, 2013 07:27 AM
Brazilian 'iPhone' Trademark Lawsuit Ends With Apple and IGB 'Close To Settlement' MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 45 Mar 12, 2013 03:56 PM
Apple Ordered to Pay Chinese Writers in eBook Settlement MacRumors iOS Blog Discussion 65 Jan 3, 2013 09:23 PM
iPad Shipments Rise 80% in China Following Trademark Settlement MacRumors iOS Blog Discussion 9 Nov 19, 2012 05:59 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:49 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC