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Old Jan 17, 2013, 09:33 AM   #76
Eithanius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneMadRssn View Post
You've probably not seen expose in ML, and you probably don't remember the hate-flame-war over expose in Mac forums when SL came out; I'm guessing.

Here is expose in ML:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...0504at948.png/

Here is expose in SL:
http://www.macintouch.com/specialrep...expose-all.jpg

Here is expose in L:
http://pcmcourseware.com/blog/wp-con.../12/expose.png

Look back at forum posts from Fall of 2009. People hated expose in SL, about as much as they hate ML today. Some things never change.

I don't "love" ML, and really hate the fact that Apple refuses to allow backwards compatibility on newer Macs. I'm just trying to prevent misinformation. (1) Expose in ML is better than Lion; and for those who have been around OSX for a while, recognize that it's back to proper Leopard behavior from when it was best., and (2) not all the extras are bloat, just some of them :-)
You guessed it wrong. I came from the Tiger era where Expose had already been introduced on Panther. Leopard came and went, but because Apple introduced a bunch of new features that bloated it, I skipped and went straight to Snow Leopard. Boy how happy was I when Expose (complete with captions) was refined grid-style. Most importantly, Snow Leopard got rid of support for PowerPC-based Macs, I guess that was what made it lightweight and stable...? Apple did emphasised that Snow Leopard was to be an under-the-hood refinement of Leopard. And yes, I was aware of how people would hate SL Expose that they would hack it to revert to the old-style Leopard Expose...

Lion came, Expose and Spaces (another PITA feature devolution) were unified. I guess I don't need to explain further on Expose as it was a total mess just like Leopard, and groped (yes you read it right - groped!)...! Mountain Lion came to reverse some of those mistakes, but unfortunately it still retains the mess of Leopard.

Expose aside, Mountain Lion is as much as bloated as Leopard, though it supposed to carry some refinements over Lion, but it does not come close in performance and stability of Snow Leopard. People have been saying, and thus proving for instance, graphical performance is superior in ML than SL. No doubt it's true. But at what cost...? Instabilities...? Graphical choppiness...? Why the iOS fanciness with unnecessary resource-hogging windows animations...? I BOINC my science project every now and then, SL does one WU by 1h 50m, ML does in 1h 49m...? I wouldn't trade 1 minute of performance over such aforementioned problems.

SL starts up with less than 400 process threads, while ML starts with over 600... They stay there whether or not you utilise the iOSified features. Bloated isn't it...? Expose is just one of the many screw ups on L/ML.

Now we're seeing an annual cycle update of OS X, which means more features will be introduced, more resources will be needed, consumer will have to upgrade more often, maybe 2 to 3 years once as opposed to 4 to 5 years during the PowerPC era...?
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:07 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
You guessed it wrong. I came from the Tiger era where Expose had already been introduced on Panther. Leopard came and went, but because Apple introduced a bunch of new features that bloated it, I skipped and went straight to Snow Leopard. Boy how happy was I when Expose (complete with captions) was refined grid-style. Most importantly, Snow Leopard got rid of support for PowerPC-based Macs, I guess that was what made it lightweight and stable...? Apple did emphasised that Snow Leopard was to be an under-the-hood refinement of Leopard. And yes, I was aware of how people would hate SL Expose that they would hack it to revert to the old-style Leopard Expose...

Lion came, Expose and Spaces (another PITA feature devolution) were unified. I guess I don't need to explain further on Expose as it was a total mess just like Leopard, and groped (yes you read it right - groped!)...! Mountain Lion came to reverse some of those mistakes, but unfortunately it still retains the mess of Leopard.

Expose aside, Mountain Lion is as much as bloated as Leopard, though it supposed to carry some refinements over Lion, but it does not come close in performance and stability of Snow Leopard. People have been saying, and thus proving for instance, graphical performance is superior in ML than SL. No doubt it's true. But at what cost...? Instabilities...? Graphical choppiness...? Why the iOS fanciness with unnecessary resource-hogging windows animations...? I BOINC my science project every now and then, SL does one WU by 1h 50m, ML does in 1h 49m...? I wouldn't trade 1 minute of performance over such aforementioned problems.

SL starts up with less than 400 process threads, while ML starts with over 600... They stay there whether or not you utilise the iOSified features. Bloated isn't it...? Expose is just one of the many screw ups on L/ML.

Now we're seeing an annual cycle update of OS X, which means more features will be introduced, more resources will be needed, consumer will have to upgrade more often, maybe 2 to 3 years once as opposed to 4 to 5 years during the PowerPC era...?
Haters gonna hate.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:15 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
I have that same MBP and I don't see that in 10.8.3
Unfortunately, I'm not a developer. Nor interested in running beta releases of OS X. So, I'm still stuck running 10.8.2. Glad to hear that the issue has been solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
I thought they fixed that with 10.8.2...? It was an issue with 10.8 and 10.8.1 that sometimes it gotten me distorted graphics until I had to reboot my MBP... It returned, and I stick back in SL...
Nope, they didn't fix it in 10.8.2, at least not completely. I'm still experiencing it from time to time — especially when starting InDesign as the first app on a freshly rebooted system. Super annoying.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:28 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
You guessed it wrong. I came from the Tiger era where Expose had already been introduced on Panther. Leopard came and went, but because Apple introduced a bunch of new features that bloated it, I skipped and went straight to Snow Leopard. Boy how happy was I when Expose (complete with captions) was refined grid-style. Most importantly, Snow Leopard got rid of support for PowerPC-based Macs, I guess that was what made it lightweight and stable...? Apple did emphasised that Snow Leopard was to be an under-the-hood refinement of Leopard. And yes, I was aware of how people would hate SL Expose that they would hack it to revert to the old-style Leopard Expose...

Lion came, Expose and Spaces (another PITA feature devolution) were unified. I guess I don't need to explain further on Expose as it was a total mess just like Leopard, and groped (yes you read it right - groped!)...! Mountain Lion came to reverse some of those mistakes, but unfortunately it still retains the mess of Leopard.

Expose aside, Mountain Lion is as much as bloated as Leopard, though it supposed to carry some refinements over Lion, but it does not come close in performance and stability of Snow Leopard. People have been saying, and thus proving for instance, graphical performance is superior in ML than SL. No doubt it's true. But at what cost...? Instabilities...? Graphical choppiness...? Why the iOS fanciness with unnecessary resource-hogging windows animations...? I BOINC my science project every now and then, SL does one WU by 1h 50m, ML does in 1h 49m...? I wouldn't trade 1 minute of performance over such aforementioned problems.

SL starts up with less than 400 process threads, while ML starts with over 600... They stay there whether or not you utilise the iOSified features. Bloated isn't it...? Expose is just one of the many screw ups on L/ML.

Now we're seeing an annual cycle update of OS X, which means more features will be introduced, more resources will be needed, consumer will have to upgrade more often, maybe 2 to 3 years once as opposed to 4 to 5 years during the PowerPC era...?
So... you wouldn't at all mind if I came to every forum thread where the OP discussed how great SL is, or SL in general, and bashed it, complained, and whined?
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:28 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Pegamush View Post
still no reason for "switching" from SL to ML. i have to admit that airdrop is nice, but not so widespread. all the social cr@p can go to hell. i want back proper exposè and spaces.
Good luck with that...


You can't stay on SL forever. Granted, I felt that SL with 8 GB of memory on a top of the line MBP was the fastest Mac I've ever used. I really did love SL...but technology moves on...pretty fast.

However, SL is old technology and while ML isn't 100 perfect, it has become much better.


-P
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:28 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by oneMadRssn View Post
Still don't like it? Don't use it then. But this completely unconstructive whining has to end.
Why is saying you like SL better than ML "whining"? And why does it have to end? This is a forum. People express opinions. If you don't like it then don't read it.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:30 AM   #82
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I'm excited, maybe this version will actually save my View Options in the Finder.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:20 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
SL starts up with less than 400 process threads, while ML starts with over 600... They stay there whether or not you utilise the iOSified features. Bloated isn't it...? Expose is just one of the many screw ups on L/ML.
And the amount of threads is actually an indication of performance on older systems? No. It can have 1500 threads but each thread can take less CPU cycles and it can eat into less resources than the 400 thread OS.

Do you actually see those extra 200 threads eat into your CPU? Because I don't. On SL or L or ML, when I'm not doing anything, CPU usage is pretty much the same, close to 11%. 5% of it is kernel task, 5% of it is my Duet Audio deamon, and the remaining 1% is everything else. Most of those 600 threads, or 400 in SL, cost me 0% CPU.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:26 AM   #84
Eithanius
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Originally Posted by iBug2 View Post
And the amount of threads is actually an indication of performance on older systems? No. It can have 1500 threads but each thread can take less CPU cycles and it can eat into less resources than the 400 thread OS.

Do you actually see those extra 200 threads eat into your CPU? Because I don't. On SL or L or ML, when I'm not doing anything, CPU usage is pretty much the same, close to 11%. 5% of it is kernel task, 5% of it is my Duet Audio deamon, and the remaining 1% is everything else. Most of those 600 threads, or 400 in SL, cost me 0% CPU.
And which part of my sentence did I equate threads to performance....?
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 11:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
And which part of my sentence did I equate threads to performance....?
Well your whole rant implied that the number of threads was a negative thing, and the system was "bloated" because of it. When people say something is bloated, it usually means it is heavier, and slower than it should be.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 12:05 PM   #86
iBug2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
And which part of my sentence did I equate threads to performance....?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
They stay there whether or not you utilise the iOSified features. Bloated isn't it...?
If you are not worried about performance hit, and if you know that you may "not use" those extra features that create those extra threads (I'm not even sure that's the case here, extra threads can be created even with the same features just threaded in a different way), then what exactly are you on about when you say "bloated"?

Don't look at the number of threads on activity monitor and there, your problem is solved. I wish everyone's issues with OS's could be solved just as easily.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:45 PM   #87
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Don't look at the number of threads on activity monitor and there, your problem is solved. I wish everyone's issues with OS's could be solved just as easily.
we're not all sheeple
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 01:55 PM   #88
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we're not all sheeple
Indeed. Some are just plain morons.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 02:12 PM   #89
cmChimera
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we're not all sheeple
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Originally Posted by The Bulge View Post
Indeed. Some are just plain morons.
People that use their computers normally without whining about features that aren't affecting them whatsoever are sheeple and morons?
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 02:43 PM   #90
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People that use their computers normally without whining about features that aren't affecting them whatsoever are sheeple and morons?
I'm a moron.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 05:35 PM   #91
tywebb13
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Will 12D54 be the build for public release of os x 10.8.3?

Last edited by tywebb13; Jan 24, 2013 at 04:32 PM.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 06:26 PM   #92
chrfr
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I reckon 12D54 will be the build for public release of os x 10.8.3 (unless developers discover something drastically wrong with it.)
12D54 doesn't even have release notes in the installer. There will be at least one more build.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 06:41 PM   #93
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Yeah you are probably right.

Last edited by tywebb13; Jan 24, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 07:06 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmChimera View Post
People that use their computers normally without whining about features that aren't affecting them whatsoever are sheeple and morons?
Correct.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegamush View Post
we're not all sheeple
Not?
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 07:27 PM   #95
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I hope they fix the low battery life issue.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 04:41 PM   #96
Blew
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Originally Posted by Pegamush View Post
still no reason for "switching" from SL to ML. i have to admit that airdrop is nice, but not so widespread. all the social cr@p can go to hell. i want back proper exposè and spaces.
I agree. I use TotalSpaces to compensate. It restores spaces functionality to ML.

http://totalspaces.binaryage.com/
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 06:42 PM   #97
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Please mother of god make safari a useable browser for retina machines.
Hi,

actually, Safari webkit nightlies is perfectly useable because they fixed fully the lag on our Retina machines. I hope these improvements be in the coming update. Try it and you will see how should be the UI in this machine as usual.

Link to the Safari Nightlies:

http://nightly.webkit.org/
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 12:14 AM   #98
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we're not all sheeple
Fair, reasoned, logical, and well thought out points. Thank you for your immense contribution to this discussion, it is greatly appreciated.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 09:49 AM   #99
canadianpj
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Originally Posted by Pegamush View Post
still no reason for "switching" from SL to ML. i have to admit that airdrop is nice, but not so widespread. all the social cr@p can go to hell. i want back proper exposè and spaces.
Enjoy living in the past then I guess? I'm sure years from now when you're still on SL you'll be happy.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 10:01 AM   #100
noiseordinance
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Hi,

actually, Safari webkit nightlies is perfectly useable because they fixed fully the lag on our Retina machines. I hope these improvements be in the coming update. Try it and you will see how should be the UI in this machine as usual.

Link to the Safari Nightlies:

http://nightly.webkit.org/
I'm not referring to lag, I'm referring to broken CSS all over the place. This has occurred on 4 different rMBPs, and is widely reported by rMBP Safari users on the Apple website, yet they have not fixed these horrendous problems since the release of the Retina line back in June. In the meantime, I use Chrome. For more details, see here:
https://discussions.apple.com/message/20462072#20462072
and
https://discussions.apple.com/message/20970837#20970837
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