Does prostitution truly exist? (legal definition aside)

[Moyank24]

Originally Posted by Squadleader

You dont have a clue about what your talking about....No its not your neighbor playing loud music...Its a hooker looking for a tree or bush to give her non driving customer a blo@job for 10-15 bucks in front of your kid....The avg. hooker does this 50 times a day/night for meth or rock..They get kicked out of one area into the next...In fact indecent exposure is a 2nd Degree Misd. ..Prostitution is a 1st..5 convictions then its a 3rd degree felony..There are some hookers that have been busted 50 times before they die of AIDS or O.D. or at the hand of another hooker for taking their ten dollar john....Its is not as simplistic as, Do you think prostitution should be a crime...It is a crime, if they move to pager/cell phone and off the street NO ONE WILL THEN CARE. Its the plain sight exposure...

I'd wager a child has a greater chance of seeing nudity/sex on television than ever seeing a prostitute working on a john in real life.

I do see your point, though. I say make it legal, try to regulate it, and move on. Or try and figure out why so many men are willing to pay for something that they can get for free.

[Squadleader]

Originally Posted by Moyank24

I'd wager a child has a greater chance of seeing nudity/sex on television than ever seeing a prostitute working on a john in real life.

I do see your point, though. I say make it legal, try to regulate it, and move on. Or try and figure out why so many men are willing to pay for something that they can get for free.

Probably.."No strings attached"....(Until the health bills start piling up!)

I agree in legalizing and regulate it...but we both know that sub-culture will not submit as 95% of em are on probation and would not pass any type of screening..The "clean" ones already kind self regulate...(healthwise)...Las Vegas in a good example...Prostitution is NOT legal in Las Vegas (city) , but is legal UN-incoporated Clark County...and it is regulated...

[skottichan]

Originally Posted by Moyank24

I'd wager a child has a greater chance of seeing nudity/sex on television than ever seeing a prostitute working on a john in real life.

I do see your point, though. I say make it legal, try to regulate it, and move on. Or try and figure out why so many men are willing to pay for something that they can get for free.

As a woman who's worked in the sex industry (I was a Dominatrix here in the Columbus area for close to 10 years), there's many reasons why men and women turn to the sex industry.

The most common is, loneliness. From my experience and others I know who range from Dominants to "street walkers", the average John/Jane just wants someone to be with. Many of my clients were successful businesspeople, lawyers, etc, and as shocking as it may seem, many of them wanted to just talk. I know Hollywood and crap like 50 Shades has painted this image of 24/7 sex, humiliation and torture, most people just want intimacy given by a listener.

Another common reason is, they're not receiving something they need at home. Whether it be like in my case, where clients wanted to give up control and be controlled, or someone who just wants the thrill of giving someone money for sex. Some cases it could be a sex addict using sex workers in the way an alcoholic uses alcohol. People are conditioned from childhood that being non-normative makes you less than human, or flat out evil. So when a housewife fantasizes about being tied up and blindfolded, or a husband fantasizes about the same, they're conditioned to keep it inside. Eventually they need an outlet, and that's where sex workers come in. Then they have an outlet.

Originally Posted by Squadleader

Would you feel the same when they walk in your neighborhood, take their Johns to the side of your house, finish him off and do it 200 more time that day for 15-20 bucks...(Mommy what is she doing to that man ..??) Will it ever end, never, can we regulate it, probably not because they service the illegals. You will never see high class hookers, they dont streetwalk.....You have have a Hollywood view of these skanks,,,

Oh honey, what you're talking about are addicts selling themselves for money to maintain their addiction. This is a result of America's failed War on Drugs™, instead of punishing people for addiction and pushing them into situations where they're abused and sometimes killed, we need to actually help them. Also, I hate to tell you, those "housewife madams" that pop up in the news, yeah, those are more common than you think.

A large number of sex workers (without hard numbers, I can't justify the quantifier "most"), do it because it's simple, fun and makes good money. Now a days with the easy access to free condoms and things like HIV databases have helped make the industry safe for those who do it for pleasure.

[Macky-Mac]

Originally Posted by PracticalMac

....

• Exhibit A: Married couple, wife stays in a home that is provided by husband, purchases shoes and dresses from moneys given to her by husband.

They are married, you say, so it is acceptable, "Legal prostitution".
Very well......

you mean there's no love involved? what an unhappy view of marriage you have

[Squadleader]

Originally Posted by skottichan

Oh honey, what you're talking about are addicts selling themselves for money to maintain their addiction. This is a result of America's failed War on Drugs™, instead of punishing people for addiction and pushing them into situations where they're abused and sometimes killed, we need to actually help them. Also, I hate to tell you, those "housewife madams" that pop up in the news, yeah, those are more common than you think.

Precisely...These what people see, these are the majority of the complaints...No one cares about the "housewife madams", they stay behind closed doors... As far as helping them...everyone of them that has been released go thru various detox programs...They return to the lifestyle because they know it and its a money maker, then the cycle begins...Dont try to blame my country for their weakness.....

[Huntn]

Originally Posted by niuniu

Pretty much agree with the presents/sex analogy to prostitution. Women do, 'put out' when 'treated well'.

As gender roll reversal continues, it will be interesting to see if we reach a pont where kept men start expecting to be treated well to 'put out'. In other words is this a characteristic of the disadvantaged gender in relationships who need security?

[lannister80]

Originally Posted by afireintonto

i'm pretty sure prostitution is illegal because men kidnap young women from poor countries, or maybe runaways, anyways women who are young and on the fringes of society and get them hooked on (insert drug here) and then force them to sell their bodies on the street for cash.

No, that's what happens when prostitution is ILLEGAL. If it were legal, it could be a normal, above-board job like any other. Legal protection, join a union, earn pay, etc. The fact that it's illegal is what forces women into that situation.

[PracticalMac]

Originally Posted by Macky-Mac

you mean there's no love involved? what an unhappy view of marriage you have

But then I could not offer Exhibit C!!

Besides that, I never heard of a "love prostitute".
Hugs for $5? Hugs and Kisses for $15?

[PracticalMac]

Originally Posted by Squadleader

Precisely...These what people see, these are the majority of the complaints...No one cares about the "housewife madams", they stay behind closed doors... As far as helping them...everyone of them that has been released go thru various detox programs...They return to the lifestyle because they know it and its a money maker, then the cycle begins...Dont try to blame my country for their weakness.....

I would surmise if prostitution was legal and regulated, the druggies would not be able to get their permit, and other prostitutes would snitch on them becuase.
1. Bad for business (negative image)
2. Remove competition.

Because prostitution is illegal in most of US, most are scared to call out bad ones becuase they will become targets.

At one time Stock Car racing was seen as an activity of criminals, and where always suspect and laws made. Now it is was organized and cleaned up and makes billions yearly, and safer streets.
It could have similar effect for prostitution, no more tricks under your window.

[Macky-Mac]

Originally Posted by PracticalMac

But then I could not offer Exhibit C!!

Besides that, I never heard of a "love prostitute".

as I said, you seem to have a rather unhappy view about love and relationships between people who are in love......sadly this seems to lead you to the idea that sex only happens as a result of some sort financial payment......which makes me think you're certainly missing something

[Mord]

Originally Posted by PracticalMac

I wanted to keep it simple, so did not use that example.

s/simple/sexist

Originally Posted by skottichan

As a woman who's worked in the sex industry (I was a Dominatrix here in the Columbus area for close to 10 years), there's many reasons why men and women turn to the sex industry.

The most common is, loneliness. From my experience and others I know who range from Dominants to "street walkers", the average John/Jane just wants someone to be with. Many of my clients were successful businesspeople, lawyers, etc, and as shocking as it may seem, many of them wanted to just talk. I know Hollywood and crap like 50 Shades has painted this image of 24/7 sex, humiliation and torture, most people just want intimacy given by a listener.

Another common reason is, they're not receiving something they need at home. Whether it be like in my case, where clients wanted to give up control and be controlled, or someone who just wants the thrill of giving someone money for sex. Some cases it could be a sex addict using sex workers in the way an alcoholic uses alcohol. People are conditioned from childhood that being non-normative makes you less than human, or flat out evil. So when a housewife fantasizes about being tied up and blindfolded, or a husband fantasizes about the same, they're conditioned to keep it inside. Eventually they need an outlet, and that's where sex workers come in. Then they have an outlet.

Best post I've read here in a long while, that's pretty much the situation my partner was in before we got together and I explored my more dominant predilections and it often saddens me to think of others in similar situations. It's a shame we seem to be wired such that submissives vastly outnumber dominants.

Originally Posted by skottichan

Oh honey, what you're talking about are addicts selling themselves for money to maintain their addiction. This is a result of America's failed War on Drugs™, instead of punishing people for addiction and pushing them into situations where they're abused and sometimes killed, we need to actually help them. Also, I hate to tell you, those "housewife madams" that pop up in the news, yeah, those are more common than you think.

A large number of sex workers (without hard numbers, I can't justify the quantifier "most"), do it because it's simple, fun and makes good money. Now a days with the easy access to free condoms and things like HIV databases have helped make the industry safe for those who do it for pleasure.

Spot on.

[AdrianK]

Originally Posted by PracticalMac

Besides that, I never heard of a "love prostitute".
Hugs for $5? Hugs and Kisses for $15?

How about a cuddle?

[PracticalMac]

Originally Posted by AdrianK

How about a cuddle?

Oh, WOW!
Snuggles for sale!

should have discount on the double-snuggle, though. 10% less?

I wonder if they do His n Her Snuggles....

----------

Originally Posted by Macky-Mac

as I said, you seem to have a rather unhappy view about love and relationships between people who are in love......sadly this seems to lead you to the idea that sex only happens as a result of some sort financial payment......which makes me think you're certainly missing something

I know what you are saying, but do you disagree with me some marry more for money, if not only for the money?

Again, I was just keeping the examples simple.

[tshrimp]

Looks like some are still looking for that moral compass that has been lost.

[mscriv]

Originally Posted by PracticalMac

So sex with payment seems to be incredibly prevalent and broad, how can prostitution be unique and by extension a crime?

Discuss.

Originally Posted by PracticalMac

I know what you are saying, but do you disagree with me some marry more for money, if not only for the money?

Again, I was just keeping the examples simple.

The question you pose and hence the following discussion is rooted firmly in one's worldview regarding truth and morality. Is sex a moral issue or simply a biological drive? Are there absolute "right and wrongs" related to sex?

Depending on where one falls in their belief system regarding these larger questions is going to be a likely indicator as to what they will believe about prostitution.

The fact that an action or behavior is "prevalent" doesn't have any bearing on the potential moral of legal standings related to that issue.

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

If you date someone who you give expensive presents to they are in some ways a prostitute.

Huh? I think I get the point you are making, but that is a drastic oversimplification and quite an assumption regarding the motives of each party in the relationship.

Originally Posted by niuniu

Don't think anyone is thinking that it's either one way or the other. Simply that sex as a reward is part of a relationship.

Physical intimacy should never be used as a reward or punishement in a relationship. If you are speaking of "reward" in terms of being a "benefit of" then I understand, but specifically manipulating intimacy in a relationship for personal reasons is unhealthy.

[Macky-Mac]

Originally Posted by PracticalMac

....

I know what you are saying, but do you disagree with me some marry more for money, if not only for the money?

Again, I was just keeping the examples simple.

I think you overly simplified your examples and overly expanded the definition of prostitution to fit your examples, which are all missing the quid pro quo agreement of payment for sex that defines prostitution.

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by mscriv

Physical intimacy should never be used as a reward or punishement in a relationship.

Why?

[skunk]

Originally Posted by mscriv

Physical intimacy should never be used as a reward or punishment in a relationship.

You mean birthday sex is a no-no?

[mscriv]

Originally Posted by niuniu

Why?

Originally Posted by skunk

You mean birthday sex is a no-no?

What I'm referring to is partners that use physical intimacy as a way to control and manipulate. Physical intimacy should be a regular part of expression and communication in a relationship. Spouses should seek to serve one another through sex by putting the other's needs above their own. Your body is a gift to your spouse and should be treated as such. When one partner starts to withhold physical intimacy to get their way in other areas of the relationship then they are doing damage and destroying the unity of the relationship.

Now, can sex be called a "reward" in a fun way within the context of a healthy relationship? Sure, which is what skunk is referring to in mentioning "birthday sex". This is not manipulation as one spouse is not only providing sex with self serving motives as a way to condition their partner's behavior.

I hope that clears things up a bit, if you have other questions then let me know.

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by mscriv

What I'm referring to is partners that use physical intimacy as a way to control and manipulate. Physical intimacy should be a regular part of expression and communication in a relationship. Spouses should seek to serve one another through sex by putting the other's needs above their own. Your body is a gift to your spouse and should be treated as such. When one partner starts to withhold physical intimacy to get their way in other areas of the relationship then they are doing damage and destroying the unity of the relationship.

Now, can sex be called a "reward" in a fun way within the context of a healthy relationship? Sure, which is what skunk is referring to in mentioning "birthday sex". This is not manipulation as one spouse is not only providing sex with self serving motives as a way to condition their partner's behavior.

I hope that clears things up a bit, if you have other questions then let me know.

So in reality sex is always a reward, or 'gift' in your choice of terminology (although if I was feeling pedantic I'd argue that your choice of word gift is usually wrong as intimacy is usually is a reward for good behaviour).

Withholding all kinds of intimacy is normal and happens on both a conscious and subconscious level for everyone for all sorts of reasons. There's no right or wrong to it, it's just the way people interact naturally.

I think it's dangerous to tell people what's right or wrong within their relationships. What gives anyone the authority to ascribe normative behaviour in the bedroom?

[PracticalMac]

Originally Posted by Macky-Mac

I think you overly simplified your examples and overly expanded the definition of prostitution to fit your examples, which are all missing the quid pro quo agreement of payment for sex that defines prostitution.

Hummm, I do not think so.
While money is common, and commonly associated with prostitution, it is not exclusive. Sex for gifts, food, booz, drugs, shelter, transportation, and a lot of other services/objects exists.

In fact, I believe a common excuse by those who exchange gifts for sex say it is not prostitution, and may be legally harder to prosecute those who do it as a prostitute.

The reason why I quoted dictionary references is becuase I am not the one "over simplifying" the definition, society is.

Here is another

prostitute n. a person who receives payment for sexual intercourse or other sexual acts, generally as a regular occupation.

You put thought into your answers, so a question for you:
How would you state the question? (I suspect you will include Love in it, something good for new topic?)

[PracticalMac]

Originally Posted by mscriv

The question you pose and hence the following discussion is rooted firmly in one's worldview regarding truth and morality. Is sex a moral issue or simply a biological drive? Are there absolute "right and wrongs" related to sex?

Depending on where one falls in their belief system regarding these larger questions is going to be a likely indicator as to what they will believe about prostitution.

The fact that an action or behavior is "prevalent" doesn't have any bearing on the potential moral of legal standings related to that issue.

I am not trying to state "ones worldview", I am posing a logical question on prostitution.

Asking about sex is not what needs considering, but
is prostitution a moral issue or simply a biological drive?

I think we all agree the range people marry for, from purely love, to political position, to purely for money, with a lot of in-between.

In fact, it is possible that marrying mainly for love is a rather recent and unique phenomenon as individual ability to earn adequate amount of money in many countries allow for more options, but I digress.


more to ponder...

[SlCKB0Y]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

It isn't a crime, in many countries out side the USA.

Where I am brothels and prostitution are legal. There are government regulations regarding health and safety of the employees and taxes are paid like any other business.

Unlike in other places that have only legalised prostitution in brothels we have also legalised street prostitution and we even have publicly traded brothels on our stock exchange

[macmesser]

Originally Posted by elistan

Here in America, there is nothing but prostition. Sex is immoral, something to be ashamed of, and is only barely tolerated because of its use in procreation. But dont every let somebody catch you in the act - you can go to jail for it.

Check out "Ape and Essence" by Aldous Huxley.