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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:30 AM   #51
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This no-poaching agreement is NOT a company-wide thing. There was a very select 'no-call' list, so it likely only applied to important executives, high level employees, and key designers and engineers.
Where did you get this info from?

Also, I love it how all the people desperately trying to defend Apple for doing this can't do so without bringing Samsung into the discussion... What on earth does Samsung have to do with Apples unethical business dealings?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:31 AM   #52
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Well, those people who bought from Samsung did pay a whopping $25 more on their Samsung, Toshiba, Sony, LG, and other television. I guess different values are worth more to some people than others. You may think losing $25 on your TV is a bigger deal than slavery, but other people think the other way.
It's honestly a tremendous stretch to call this slavery. Also, it's not illegal, it's not a moral thing to do in my opinion, but legally, it's a sort of grey zone and just really quite douchey. It's pretty telling that the only thing the DOJ ended up doing to these companies is telling them not to have any more "no solicitation" agreements for five years. That's it.

Also, yes, the $25 is a bigger deal because it was $25 x millions and millions of customers. This is a recruitment ban on likely to be a few hundred of employees at most. Just because you're on a no-call list, it doesn't mean you were going to be solicited for sure. And it's obviously only meant to protect high level management and engineers/designers. If you're making 250k/yr, I'm not too sympathetic that you won't get your 25k bonus. Even if there were thousands of employees who were harmed, it's just not comparable.

And youre right, different values are worth more to some people than others. I think tax evasion, even if forgiven by the Korean president, is a far more serious issue and more importantly, an actual crime, that defrauded millions (billions?) from the Korean people.

Again, the magnitude is just not comparable, especially when what Apple (and as note earlier, we are focusing on Apple, but they're not the only culprit) did is not even remotely as damaging or harmful. Is it scum behavior? Yes, this I've agreed from the beginning. But I can't imagine how anyone intelligent can argue that Apple's behavior is worse than Samsung's while what Samsung did is "no harm, no foul."

Last edited by ybz90; Jan 23, 2013 at 03:37 AM.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:38 AM   #53
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It's honestly a tremendous stretch to call this slavery. Also, it's not illegal, it's not a moral thing to do in my opinion, but legally, it's a sort of grey zone and just really quite douchey.

Also, yes, the $25 is a big deal because it was $25 x millions and millions of customers.

This is a recruitment ban on likely to be a few hundred of employees at most.
I think it fits the term closely. Though it might not be the slavery we all think of back in the 1700-1800s down in the Southern plantations, depriving people of their right to associate with whomever they want is a deplorable act and Apple should pay dearly.

Think about the repercussions of what might happen to the American worker if Apple gets their way. You're making minimum wage at McDonald's and due to anti-poaching laws, you can't get a management position that Burger King would have given you if they were free to hire you.

Last edited by OllyW; Jan 23, 2013 at 03:59 AM. Reason: Trolling
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:38 AM   #54
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Also, I love it how all the people desperately trying to defend Apple for doing this can't do so without bringing Samsung into the discussion... What on earth does Samsung have to do with Apples unethical business dealings?
Read all of my posts. I'm not defending Apple, I agree they're scummy too. I also didn't bring Samsung into it.

I'm just responding to assertions that Apple's behavior here is worse than some of the terrible and criminal things Samsung has been involved with.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:38 AM   #55
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What a doucebag.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:40 AM   #56
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I think it fits the term closely. Though it might not be the slavery we all think of back in the 1700-1800s down in the Southern plantations, depriving people of their right to associate with whomever they want is a deplorable act and Apple should pay dearly.
I don't understand your double standard. For what Apple did, you might think they should pay. Sure, that's fair... but in that case, how can you think what Samsung did, which hurt many magnitude more people on a greater scale, is "no harm, no foul"?

You don't get it both ways. Either they're both dicks, or they're both not. But when Apple's "crime" is lesser, it's not reasonable to indict them and let Samsung off the hook.

Last edited by OllyW; Jan 23, 2013 at 04:04 AM. Reason: clean up to quote
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:42 AM   #57
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I don't understand your double standard. For what Apple did, you might think they should pay. Sure, that's fair... but in that case, how can you think what Samsung did, which hurt many magnitude more people on a greater scale, is "no harm, no foul"?

You don't get it both ways. Either they're both dicks, or they're both not. But when Apple's "crime" is lesser, it's not reasonable to indict them and let Samsung off the hook.
Because paying an extra $25 for your Samsung TV isn't as serious as depriving someone's right to associate with whomever they want. Get it?

And yes, for your info, anti-poaching agreements ARE illegal.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:46 AM   #58
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Yup. Steve used unethical tactics . I'd wait until you read the other scummy stuff that Jon Rubenstein and Eric Schmidt did before calling Apple evil.

This stuff happens all the time and to be honest I'd be pissed and going thermonuclear too if some of my companies trade secrets were stolen and basterized by Palm and Google.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:48 AM   #59
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Read all of my posts.
Apologies, but that particular paragraph was not directed towards you.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:49 AM   #60
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Yup. Steve used unethical tactics . I'd wait until you read the other scummy stuff that Jon Rubenstein and Eric Schmidt did before calling Apple evil.

This stuff happens all the time and to be honest I'd be pissed and going thermonuclear too if some of my companies trade secrets were stolen and basterized by Palm and Google.
Seriously, how can anyone praise Steve Jobs? For god's sake, he's a plagiarizer and a fraud. When he worked at Atari (Obviously lied to get the position) and was told to make a circuitboard of some sort, he got Wozniak to do it for him in exchange that they would split the $$$.
Jobs took all the credit for Wozniak's work AND lied to his friend, telling Woz Atari gave him A LOT less than they really did. He's a cheat, plain and simple. No morals, just a plagiarizing fraud.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:49 AM   #61
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The agreement between the big companies wouldn't exist if it was wrong or unfair.
Dear lord I'm hoping that's irony but I think you might actually be that insanely naive.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:51 AM   #62
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Finally we have a thread where nobody can say "Steve wouldn't have blah, blah, blah".
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:54 AM   #63
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Because paying an extra $25 for your Samsung TV isn't as serious as depriving someone's right to associate with whomever they want. Get it?

And yes, for your info, anti-poaching agreements ARE illegal.
You keep fixating on the $ to justify your illogical, overly righteous theme, but let me rephrase what you said this way: illegally overcharging hundreds of millions of customers over several years is at least as serious as depriving a few hundred employees from being recruited. I think you also have a fundamental misunderstanding of this particular no solicitation agreement. The employees are not slaves because they are allowed to associate with whomever they want. Nothing stopped them from quitting and applying for jobs elsewhere, nor were their applications denied because of it. It just prevented these companies from directly soliciting each other's employee lists. So, again, slavery is a stretch. And no, non-compete and non-solicitation agreements are NOT illegal. I think they should be, but they are not. This particular one is in a bit of legal grey zone, but the DOJ did not explicitly deem it illegal and the only settlement was that the companies had to agree not to do this for five years. Again, I think it's a scum thing to do, but... that leads me back to my questions that you refuse to answer.

Why do you think Apple is worse than Samsung? Do you also think Google and the other companies involved are also worse than Samsung? Why exactly, besides an objection to slavery, do you think this is worse than defrauding millions of customers, the government, and taxpayers, in addition to being associated with criminal organizations? You need to address your contradictions. Like I said, if Samsung's scummy actions, which clearly have harmed many, many people without compensation (sure they got fined... but that money didn't go back into my pocket or the pockets of other consumers... and they got a free pass on the tax evasion), are pardoned because their actions are "no harm no foul" in the eyes of the Korean voters, then why is Apple so scummy? I'm sure 99% of us will vote to pardon Apple for this. Does this excuse them? I sure as hell don't think so, but by your logic, we should do so since clearly you believe Samsung should not be held culpable for their actions.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:54 AM   #64
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MY line of thinking is that the reasons that make me respect Jobs as a CEO are the same reasons I think he was a douche bag of a human being.

He had a definite Machiavellian streak.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:55 AM   #65
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What a legend. And he wasn't threatening Palm to make more money or be a jerk. He was making sure people like us would always have the best products available because the best people would be able to work on them. We should be grateful.
Just because Steve made great products, it doesn't mean he's a great person - There's copious amounts of evidence to indicate that he was a pretty horrible person, actually.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:56 AM   #66
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Seriously, how can anyone praise Steve Jobs? For god's sake, he's a plagiarizer and a fraud. When he worked at Atari (Obviously lied to get the position) and was told to make a circuitboard of some sort, he got Wozniak to do it for him in exchange that they would split the $$$.
Jobs took all the credit for Wozniak's work AND lied to his friend, telling Woz Atari gave him A LOT less than they really did. He's a cheat, plain and simple. No morals, just a plagiarizing fraud.
It's easy to spit on a dead guy isn't it ? How's it feel ?
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:00 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by AppleLover12345 View Post
Seriously, how can anyone praise Steve Jobs? For god's sake, he's a plagiarizer and a fraud. When he worked at Atari (Obviously lied to get the position) and was told to make a circuitboard of some sort, he got Wozniak to do it for him in exchange that they would split the $$$.
Jobs took all the credit for Wozniak's work AND lied to his friend, telling Woz Atari gave him A LOT less than they really did. He's a cheat, plain and simple. No morals, just a plagiarizing fraud.
He is. He is an unscrupulous competitor who resorted to many low tactics, and that's precisely why he was successful. Like I said earlier, many, many CEOs are like this and that's why Colligan is a rare role model. But this is another example of the double standard -- why criticize only Jobs? The CEOs at other companies are often exactly the same. It's sensationalist and somewhat unfair to single him about. He was a jerk, but so are most executives in SV.

I can't speak for everyone, but I praise the man for his creative vision and foresight, not his morals or his business practice, and I don't see anything wrong with praising him for that.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:00 AM   #68
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Finally we have a thread where nobody can say "Steve wouldn't have blah, blah, blah".
Tim Cook wouldn't have done this.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:01 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by AppleLover12345 View Post
Thank god someone gets it.
See, when Samsung's chairman doesn't pay $25 mill in taxes South Korea, Apple lovers act like Samsung is going around running mass pedophile extortion rings.
When Apple threatens other companies with legal action if they didn't break the law and make their employees slaves to the company, they go full force to defend Apple's illegal actions.

The thing is, Samsung's actions DO NOT harm anyone nor do they deprive te fundamental rights of all men. Apple's actions do, and that's why Apple is the bigger scum.
Pointless debate point arguing who is worse. It's unlikely that this has improved anyway. If you have that at the top, what do you think surrounded him?

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Another advocate of slavery. Jesus Christ, will these people stop at nothing to defend Apple?
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How is it ok for employees of each of these companies being forced to stay in the same job, with no promotions, no wage increases, etc? That's the issue here, it's got naff all to do with consumers.

It's wrong and illegal for a reason. If it wasn't wrong you currently be living in a controlled country, where you'd be forced to do the same job for your entire life, on minimum wage.
I'd ignore Puevlo. He's one of the most successful trolls on the site.

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Yup. Steve used unethical tactics . I'd wait until you read the other scummy stuff that Jon Rubenstein and Eric Schmidt did before calling Apple evil.

This stuff happens all the time and to be honest I'd be pissed and going thermonuclear too if some of my companies trade secrets were stolen and basterized by Palm and Google.
It's a pointless debate which management team leads in lack of ethics, but at least you kept it to the management level, where such a discussion belongs. It's really stupid when people direct their hatred at anyone attached to such a company.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:03 AM   #70
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Pointless debate point arguing who is worse. It's unlikely that this has improved anyway. If you have that at the top, what do you think surrounded him?





I'd ignore Puevlo. He's one of the most successful trolls on the site.



It's a pointless debate which management team leads in lack of ethics, but at least you kept it to the management level, where such a discussion belongs. It's really stupid when people direct their hatred at anyone attached to such a company.
Well said.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:04 AM   #71
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It's easy to spit on a dead guy isn't it ? How's it feel ?
Him being dead has bugger all to do with it. He'd still be under the same fire, and rightly so.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:06 AM   #72
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why criticize only Jobs? The CEOs at other companies are often exactly the same. It's sensationalist and somewhat unfair to single him about. He was a jerk, but so are most executives in SV.
We are currently discussing Jobs because the article we are posting under is about Jobs. Not about any other CEOs, not about Samsung, it's about Jobs.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:06 AM   #73
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Google makes their money selling you.
An exactly what sells?

And according to the report, I expect that Apple, Google, Intel and the other companies involved get a big slap
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:07 AM   #74
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He is. He is an unscrupulous competitor who resorted to many low tactics, and that's precisely why he was successful. Like I said earlier, many, many CEOs are like this and that's why Colligan is a rare role model. But this is another example of the double standard -- why criticize only Jobs? The CEOs at other companies are often exactly the same. It's sensationalist and somewhat unfair to single him about. He was a jerk, but so are most executives in SV.

I can't speak for everyone, but I praise the man for his creative vision and foresight, not his morals or his business practice, and I don't see anything wrong with praising him for that.
To be fair how many other ceos are worshiped like a hero. I personally have been calling Steve Jobs a horrible human being long before his death. This is just more proof of it.
Also pretty much shows Apple is going to be paying out the noise in the class action. They do not have much defense left.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:07 AM   #75
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What a legend. And he wasn't threatening Palm to make more money or be a jerk. He was making sure people like us would always have the best products available because the best people would be able to work on them. We should be grateful.
You missed the sarcasm tag, didn't you?
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