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Old Feb 4, 2013, 01:54 PM   #101
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I hate to do this, but you gotta know there's a lot to learn. You working with a number of variables that need to be controlled and adjusted.

Extraction time - which is effected by tamp pressure, grind adjustment and coffee dose.

Extraction time is the time in seconds it takes to get 2 - 2 1/2 ounces in your cup - it should take between 20-30 seconds. (Some do extraction strictly by time, irrespective of how much is in the cup. Not the method I favor, but that's me). If it takes more than 30 seconds, your grind is too fine (assuming you hold your tamp pressure constant) and you are over extracting. You then move the adjustment a click or two to make it a tiny bit more coarse.

Conversely, if getting 2 - 2 1/2 ounces in your cup takes less than 20 seconds, you are under-extracting, and need to make your grind a click or two finer. Again, this assumes you hold your tamp pressure constant.

The nice thing about the grinder suggested is that his has a doser, which means another variable is controlled for you. You will get a consistent amount of grind in your portafilter each time you use it. I suggest using the double shot basket. You will get a single shot basket and a double shot basket. I suggest you use the double shot basket for openers.

Sorry to make sound all complicated, but even casual espresso amking does require a bit time to learn.

Go for it...you'll love the drinks you make!!
Of course of course. I expect this to take months for me to get the process down, not perfected, mind you. I guess I should have said something along the lines of:

"save up, then start learning"
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 01:58 PM   #102
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Of course of course. I expect this to take months for me to get the process down, not perfected, mind you. I guess I should have said something along the lines of:

"save up, then start learning"
A suggestion...if you buy it from www.wholelattelove.com, think about doing it by phone, instead of online. If you get a nice sales person, as I did, he was willing to throw in a good tamper (you'll just get a crappy plastic one with the machine) and some coffee.
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 02:08 PM   #103
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A suggestion...if you buy it from www.wholelattelove.com, think about doing it by phone, instead of online. If you get a nice sales person, as I did, he was willing to throw in a good tamper (you'll just get a crappy plastic one with the machine) and some coffee.
Good idea. Do you think I should mention I'm a first time buyer, and stuff?

My business brain says these guys should know to make my first experience super awesome, to make repeat sales.
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 02:14 PM   #104
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Ive never been to Italy but id heard the coffee there was usually quite disappointing as the italians like single shots of espresso and just down them for the caffeine. Thats all just hear say tho, not personal experience.
No, no, not at all. Coffee is both a religion (as in a transcendental experience where worship takes place) and an art form in parts of Italy.

And yes, of course there are places where one knocks back single shots of espresso, often while standing up; but what single shots of espresso, served from gleaming and hissing machines, and what elegant little (heavy) ceramic cups it comes in......bliss, sheer bliss.....

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Since we're talking grinders, I can't resist plugging the grinder I just received. It is a hand grinder, and a beautiful (IMO) and amazingly functional grinder. The construction and materials are nonpareil. It uses 83mm Mazzer conical burrs, and the consistency of the grind is amazing.

It's an HG-one grinder:

www.hg-one.com for those who are interested in a look.

I agree that Starbucks turns their beans (hard to tell how good they were before flaming) in little charcoal briquets.
Whimper. Whimper. That is simply beautiful.....

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I thought it would be prudent not to slobber all over the thing about how great it is.

The construction is beyond anything I have ever owned!

The materials are unbelievable and perfectly finished!

It has an infinitely variable grind adjustment!

It has 83mm conical burrs for faster grinding...even though it is a hand grinder.

It has no curves or corners for the grinds to flow through...straight down from the hopper to exiting the machine!

Incredible grind consistency...it produces a "fluffy" output, totally devoid of any lumps or clumping!

Not motor to burn out, or chips to fry!

I like it a lot...

OK, better??


(Boy, is this a tough room!!!)
A wonderful post. One which fills me with further longing, but yet full of information....... thank you.

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Originally Posted by twietee View Post
slightly...it'll do for the moment. Thank's.

I'll bother you again when I scraped said $850. Oh, and I can confirm everything said about Italy and perfect espresso and cappuccino. Besides, I never met one Italian drinking latte machiatto...whatever that means.

Nothing probably.
Yes. Exactly.

Ask yourselves this question: Why are the nouns that are used (by us) to describe these drinks (cappuccino and espresso) lifted straight from another language? Because, in Italy, the making and consumption of these beverages is an art form, treated with respect and consumed with scarcely disguised pleasure.

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For what it's worth, I think Kissaragi's suggestion is excellent. Gaggia makes an excellent line of machines ( my machine before the one I have now was a Gaggia Baby Class). And the grinder has 35 adjustments, from very coarse (used with a press) to very fine...for espresso.

Incidentally, www.wholelattelove.com is an excellent vendor. I bought my current machine there. And they have a great Technical Support and Customer Support phone service!
Agreed, Gaggia does make very good machines.....attractive looking and also machines which make very good coffee for the price.

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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
I hate to do this, but you gotta know there's a lot to learn. You working with a number of variables that need to be controlled and adjusted.

Extraction time - which is effected by tamp pressure, grind adjustment and coffee dose.

Extraction time is the time in seconds it takes to get 2 - 2 1/2 ounces in your cup - it should take between 20-30 seconds. (Some do extraction strictly by time, irrespective of how much is in the cup. Not the method I favor, but that's me). If it takes more than 30 seconds, your grind is too fine (assuming you hold your tamp pressure constant) and you are over extracting. You then move the adjustment a click or two to make it a tiny bit more coarse.

Conversely, if getting 2 - 2 1/2 ounces in your cup takes less than 20 seconds, you are under-extracting, and need to make your grind a click or two finer. Again, this assumes you hold your tamp pressure constant.

The nice thing about the grinder suggested is that his has a doser, which means another variable is controlled for you. You will get a consistent amount of grind in your portafilter each time you use it. I suggest using the double shot basket. You will get a single shot basket and a double shot basket. I suggest you use the double shot basket for openers.

Sorry to make sound all complicated, but even casual espresso amking does require a bit time to learn.

Go for it...you'll love the drinks you make!!
As always, a great and informative post.

Must say this thread has really grown since I last took a quick look at it......
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 02:24 PM   #105
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Good idea. Do you think I should mention I'm a first time buyer, and stuff?

My business brain says these guys should know to make my first experience super awesome, to make repeat sales.
I don't think it can hurt. I always go for the pity vote!!

If they don't offer it up front, mention a good tamper. It's really an important accessory, and even my machine came with a plastic one. I think they assume that you have a good tamper, so they put the plastic one in the box for laughs.Work it into the conversation.

They really are pretty nice. And their Tech Support is great for any questions you have while you're learning about how to use your new machine.

----------

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snip......
Thanks for the kind words. I'm just having a ball on this thread. Great conversation, great information...all done in a friendly atmosphere.

EDIT: I thoughtlessly omitted my thanks to Eric/ for starting this thread!
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 02:50 PM   #106
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Thanks for the kind words. I'm just having a ball on this thread. Great conversation, great information...all done in a friendly atmosphere.
Well yeah, we ultimately avoided the depths of the PRSI at least, thank's to sandboxgeneral, who bend the rules a bit...and although my posts partly come across kind of rude (only the translated versions, of course), you make up for it big time!

Since I finally found my new apartment and hence a necessity for a new grinder occurred as well, this thread is/will be pure gold. And lucky me: the HG-1 Burr grinder is out of stock. Both models. How many did you actually purchase, Shrink?
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 02:57 PM   #107
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You gentlemen are making me athirst for an espresso right now. But alas, wherefore I am at work and cannot partake at this instant in the delightful Italian beverage. Soon however, I shall meet again my espresso contrivance in the course of due time and will create for myself a tasty drink to satisfy my pallet.
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 03:01 PM   #108
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Well yeah, we ultimately avoided the depths of the PRSI at least, thank's to sandboxgeneral, who bend the rules a bit...and although my posts partly come across kind of rude (only the translated versions, of course), you make up for it big time!

Since I finally found my new apartment and hence a necessity for a new grinder occurred as well, this thread is/will be pure gold. And lucky me: the HG-1 Burr grinder is out of stock. Both models. How many did you actually purchase, Shrink?
You think three was too many??

The bad news is they will have a few left over from the first production run, which will appear in the store soon. Also, they will be doing another production run soon, and taking pre-orders soon, too.

BTW: Strongly suggest the 83mm, much faster when hand cranking. (About 22-25 seconds for an 18g grind - a double shot.) I believe that all the ones available in the near future will start as 83mm, and they will convert to 71mm if requested.

I provide this information...just in case.

If you actually decide to go for it, PM me and I'll give you my name. The guys who started this thing know me, so if you mention my name...it won't do you a bit of good on price, but I might get a break if any new accessories are produced.

EDIT: Hey SandboxGeneral, you sure do talk funny when you're at work!!
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 03:23 PM   #109
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You think three was too many??
I know what you mean. Important and beautiful architectural books I end up buying twice...and finally regret for being too scroogy for the third.

And about the nice discount for your future little gadgets: you're welcome!
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Old Feb 4, 2013, 04:04 PM   #110
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This was my reaction when I first ordered a coffee (black, sugar) at starbucks:
1: Small sip
2: Throw away.
Some time afterwards, a second attempt yielded the same results. You can call it a coffee-based beverage, and I'm fine with that, but as a coffee, it sucks. And I'm not even remotely a coffee wannabe connoisseur.
I'll just slip away to enjoy my sub-standard coffee-based beverage, made with just coffee beans.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 03:46 PM   #111
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It is funny that I found this thread. I was watching the tv show "The Chew" and Micheal Syman (SP?) was talking about making expresso's and he was saying what shrink was talking about, best grinder you can, the bean, the time etc. It is a quick segment....and he talks kind of fast. I think he talked to Shrink first personally. LOL

http://beta.abc.go.com/shows/the-che...anuary-28-2013

Watch the clip about the coffee... He actually got me looking into this and I found this thread!!!

Tons of info here and I am getting the espresso bug!
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 03:49 PM   #112
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It is funny that I found this thread. I was watching the tv show "The Chew" and Micheal Syman (SP?) was talking about making expresso's and he was saying what shrink was talking about, with the grind etc.

http://beta.abc.go.com/shows/the-che...anuary-28-2013

Watch the clip about the coffee... He actually got me looking into this and I found this thread!!!

Tons of info here and I am getting the espresso bug!
Abandon hope, all ye who enter here!!!

Take care...it's the road to serious craziness!!

But welcome to the world of espresso insanity...
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 03:53 PM   #113
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Abandon hope, all ye who enter here!!!

Take care...it's the road to serious craziness!!

But welcome to the world of espresso insanity...
Yeah I can tell. The insanity can be said for pretty much anything..... but nothing beats a good cup....
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:05 PM   #114
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I remember Kato made a good looking cappuccino right at the beginning of the Green Lantern movie, too. Even with a little foamy apple on top >ss's avatar. His machine wouldn't fit into my kitchen though.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:08 PM   #115
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I remember Kato made a good looking cappuccino right at the beginning of the Green Lantern movie, too. Even with a little foamy apple on top >ss's avatar. His machine wouldn't fit into my kitchen though.
Wait, are you actually saying that you would not totally remodel your house to get the right espresso machine in your home!!

Oh, I'm so disappointed...
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:27 PM   #116
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Wait, are you actually saying that you would not totally remodel your house to get the right espresso machine in your home!!

Oh, I'm so disappointed...
Well, Shrink, you should know that the right espresso machine is worth nothing without the right grinder....which seems to be sold out.

Secondly, would there be a What You Like About Amazing Architecture? thread, you'd know that I'm as lunatic about this as you are about that black stuff in your blood. So re-modelling my apartment is rather difficile..

And not to derail this thread too much: you drink it with or without sugar? I always get Billington's nowadays.


Last edited by twietee; Feb 5, 2013 at 04:34 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:32 PM   #117
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Upgradeitus is a terrible affliction effecting coffee enthusiasts. You think you'll be happy with that £1000 alex but oh no, you'll see a GS3 one day and the alex wont be enough. Once you've spent £5000 on the GS3, you'll see a kees van der Westen, then your basically *********.

Its an endless cycle of pain, misery and spending too much.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:35 PM   #118
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Well, Shrink, you should know that the right espresso machine is worth nothing without the right grinder....which seemes to be sold out.

Secondly, would there be an What You Like About Amazing Architecture? thread, you'd know that I'm as lunatic about this as you are about that black stuff in your blood. So re-modelling my apartment is rather difficile..

Btw. you drink it with or without sugar? I always get Billington's nowadays.

Image
No sugar!! No nothing!! Just as it comes out of the machine, and as soon as it comes out of the machine...no waiting.

I used to use a little sugar, and someone teased my about adulterating my expresso, so I tried it without sugar and I liked it much better that way.

That looks like beautiful sugar, though...

Well, de gustibus non est disputandum.

Edit:Kissaragi, you speak the absolute truth. Although, right now, I'm happy as a pig in s*** with my grinder and machine.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:37 PM   #119
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Well, Shrink, you should know that the right espresso machine is worth nothing without the right grinder....which seemes to be sold out.

Secondly, would there be an What You Like About Amazing Architecture? thread, you'd know that I'm as lunatic about this as you are about that black stuff in your blood. So re-modelling my apartment is rather difficile..

And not to derail this thread too much: you drink it with or without sugar? I always get Billington's nowadays.

Image
Well, firstly, why don't you start a thread which asks "What Do You Like About Amazing Architecture?" - I'll read it with delight and more than happily subscribe to it......

Secondly, ah, Billington's sugar. Excellent choice. Yes, now that is a fine sugar...(and yes, I like a little brown sugar, preferably organic, demerara in my espresso....)
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:39 PM   #120
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No sugar!! No nothing!!

...

Well, de gustibus non est disputandum.
That's what I thought. Faber est suae quisque fortunae.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:43 PM   #121
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I only take sugar in tea (covers up the taste of tea). Coffee should be good enough to not need it!
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:44 PM   #122
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That's what I thought. Faber est suae quisque fortunae.
I had it to have it translated...very true.

My education was woefully lacking...no Latin.

I think we're drifting just a tad OT...

BTW: Even though I don't use sugar in my coffee, is that sugar easily available in the US??
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:45 PM   #123
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No sugar!! No nothing!! Just as it comes out of the machine, and as soon as it comes out of the machine...no waiting.
Doesn't it enter your blood faster with sugar? Think about it.

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Well, firstly, why don't you start a thread which asks "What Do You Like About Amazing Architecture?" - I'll read it with delight and more than happily subscribe to it......
I'm way too shy for things like starting such an important thread. I keep on watching movies with a cup of coffee in my hand. Don't take it too literally though. Although I'm fairly interested in your opinion regarding that..darn!

Edit: I believe Billington's is a British product. I actually buy it in my coffee shop / café, so probably you should just leave your kitchen for one moment and try to get it some place like that??

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I only take sugar in tea (covers up the taste of tea). Coffee should be good enough to not need it!
Hmmm..I drink most of my tea with honey. But sugar to cover up the taste of the tea?? I'm confused.

Last edited by twietee; Feb 5, 2013 at 04:53 PM.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:52 PM   #124
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Doesn't it enter your blood faster with sugar? Think about it
I wasn't aware that sugar speeds absorption. Carbonation does. Carbonation is OK for Champagne, not so much for coffee!!

Also, semi-seriously, if you're referring to the caffeine jolt, for a number of reasons, you get a much bigger caffeine jolt from brewed coffee than from espresso. Also, if you drink 4-5 espressos a day, you do sort of develop a tolerance.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 04:53 PM   #125
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Im not a big tea fan but its better than instant coffee in other peoples houses when your out.
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