Panetta opens combat roles to women

[Moyank24]

Originally Posted by Tomorrow

You couldn't be more wrong. Pregnancy is beautiful.


On topic, however - and you can call my opinion sexist, or chauvanistic, or regressive, or whatever - I think this is a bad idea. I don't like the idea of sending women onto the front lines.

It has nothing to do with whether they "can" do it - I have no doubt many of them are capable, both physically and emotionally.

For me, it has everything to do with whether we "should" do it.

I watched the beach scene in Saving Private Ryan. My niece is turning 18 this week. I would never dream of her, or other women her age, being knee-deep in that somewhere.

I see this in much the same way as getting into a fist fight with a woman - as a guy, you just don't do it. Yes, I'm sure there are some women who could genuinely kick my ass in a fight - but I would never step into the ring with any of them. It just doesn't sit well with me.

Flame away, if you must.

In my experience, the end result of the pregnancy was beautiful. The actual pregnancy, though, was long, hard, painful and so not pretty.

As far as the other, I think the perception of women, and gender roles, in America has a lot to do with it. And hopefully as we progress socially it will change.

I don't want my daughter growing up thinking that she is limited because she was born a girl. And I don't want her to see my son get opportunities just because he wasn't.

Having boobs and a "monthly cycle" (which, frankly, tends to disappear during times of great stress and exercise) shouldn't automatically preclude someone from getting the opportunity to do something. Just as having a penis shouldn't guarantee someone the same opportunity.

[VulchR]

'Women can't carry heavy loads': Utter bollocks.

[glocke12]

I think its great as long as the current combat qualification standards are not lowered...Lets not forget that ultimate role of the combat troops is to kill the enemy, not to make life "fair" for everyone.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by VulchR

'Women can't carry heavy loads': Utter bollocks.

Image

To be fair, that's not a 80+ pound pack, and she isn't rucking 20 miles through the mountains of North Carolina

[niuniu]

The judgement women can provide in tough situations will prove valuable I believe. Teams operate better with a balance of men and women, there's been a business show here in the UK recently that showed the difference in results between mixed sex and single sex teams.

One thing is certain, men have had a monopoly in the military, and a monopoly on bad decision making. Lets see if women can improve things.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by niuniu

The judgement women can provide in tough situations will prove valuable I believe. Teams operate better with a balance of men and women, there's been a business show here in the UK recently that showed the difference in results between mixed sex and single sex teams.

One thing is certain, men have had a monopoly in the military, and a monopoly on bad decision making. Lets see if women can improve things.

I'm sure women will improve things, but I'm not sure what you mean by a monopoly on bad decision making?

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by eric/

I'm sure women will improve things, but I'm not sure what you mean by a monopoly on bad decision making?

If you take every bad decision and combat error made since the start of any military, you'll find the vast majority were made by men, simply due to composition.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by niuniu

If you take every bad decision and combat error made since the start of any military, you'll find the vast majority were made by men, simply due to composition.

ok.... and all the good ones were made by men too

so I'm still confused about what you're trying to get across

[GermanyChris]

Originally Posted by VulchR

'Women can't carry heavy loads': Utter bollocks.

Image

The source does not say all women..that's OK I do think there are women in the military that can carry the weight. The question is whats it cost them in energy?

Some of the problems lie within the military training system. A combat load for an Infantryman is 45#. That is the weight we train at and compete at, for PT it may go to 65#-65#. The issue is when we get to war the load triples it really becomes crushing you cannot even stand up on your own. So lets take out superstar female soldier hand her 90%-110% of her body weigh in crap how much energy is she going to burn to move 15 to 20 hrs per day for days on end? Can her joints take the load over extended time (a 20 year military career)? What damage is being done to her neck and shoulders (IBA doesn't allow much upper body movement). Falling arches are a big problem in infantry land, what is it going to do to hers? Below is me left front in 2002 we're heading out for the final cleanup mission of Operation Anaconda my gear is at this point is 90 to 100 pounds but what you don't see in the picture is is we have a bag were carrying as a squad the has 200 additional pounds of machine gun ammo. Three months with no shower or bathroom facilities but we got to hang out with learn from and fight with Ausie SF, US SF, Canadian Mountain Infantry, Later on British Royal Marines, and SF and a platoon of Army Rangers..Best time of my life.

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by eric/

ok.... and all the good ones were made by men too

so I'm still confused about what you're trying to get across

How can you find that confusing?

If mixed sex groups made better decisions than non-mixed sex groups then introducing women into an all male group will improve decision making.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by niuniu

How can you find that confusing?

If mixed sex groups made better decisions than non-mixed sex groups then introducing women into an all male group will improve decision making.

Obviously I get that, I just don't understand what saying "that men had the monopoly on bad decision making" had to do with that.

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by eric/

Obviously I get that, I just don't understand what saying "that men had the monopoly on bad decision making" had to do with that.

And I don't understand how you just don't understand.

[eric/]

Originally Posted by niuniu

And I don't understand how you just don't understand.

I guess your point just isn't clear enough.

Let's run through it:

1. Women and men together make better decisions

2. men have monopoly on bad decision making in the military

ergo men also have monopoly on good decision making in the military

But why does #2 need to be stated at all? What's the relevance?

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by eric/

I guess your point just isn't clear enough.

Let's run through it:

1. Women and men together make better decisions

2. men have monopoly on bad decision making in the military

erog men also have monopoly on good decision making in the military

But why does #2 need to be stated at all? What's the relevance?

I think watching a pseud confuse himself over an emphasis would be very entertaining. erog

[rdowns]

‘The army is not a sociological laboratory; to be effective it must be organized and trained according to the principles which will ensure success…Experiments are a danger to efficiency, discipline and morale and would result in ultimate defeat.’

That was from a guy in 1941. And that argument was about not allowing black people in the military. That was his exact argument of why blacks should not be allowed in the military, because it’s a danger to efficiency and discipline and morale and will result in ultimate defeat.

Link

[Zombie Acorn]

As long as standards aren't dropped I don't really care. If a woman can lug 60-80 lbs for miles like everyone else, let them.

[Merkava_4]

I'm thinking these so called "women" going into combat are gonna be the men type women anyway. Butch haircuts and the whole 9 yards. Not much difference from having a bonafide male soldier in there.

[Technarchy]

We tried this a couple of years ago with our LLVI tactical teams.

We gave some of the females in MI who spoke critical languages the chance to do some high speed stuff.

Many of the females had near perfect PT scores, were never on profile, never needed to be taped.

And what happened?

They all failed, most quit. We had no modified standards. You had to perform like a man or you were done. Couple of females just sat down and quit. We had a brutal land nav course in rough terrain, 5000ft elevation, full battle rattle, weapon, and all the LLVI gear. It was exhausting.

This level of training is nothing compared to SF or Ranger school. If a female can hack it without modified standards, great. Otherwise, no way in hell I want a female taking the slot of a 6'2 200lbs monster that ruck all day with a SAW and have a heart rate that never goes over 90.

[rdowns]

Originally Posted by Merkava_4

I'm thinking these so called "women" going into combat are gonna be the men type women anyway. Butch haircuts and the whole 9 yards. Not much difference from having a bonafide male soldier in there.

Wow. Just wow.

[MuddyPaws1]

Originally Posted by Moyank24

Neither is pregnancy.

The fact is, there are men who wouldn't be able to deal with that either. Why not give everyone the opportunity?

I don't want the opportunity to get pregnant.

[CaptMurdock]

Originally Posted by Technarchy

We tried this a couple of years ago with our LLVI tactical teams.

We gave some of the females in MI who spoke critical languages the chance to do some high speed stuff.

Many of the females had near perfect PT scores, were never on profile, never needed to be taped.

And what happened?

They all failed, most quit. We had no modified standards. You had to perform like a man or you were done. Couple of females just sat down and quit. We had a brutal land nav course in rough terrain, 5000ft elevation, full battle rattle, weapon, and all the LLVI gear. It was exhausting.

This level of training is nothing compared to SF or Ranger school. If a female can hack it without modified standards, great. Otherwise, no way in hell I want a female taking the slot of a 6'2 200lbs monster that ruck all day with a SAW and have a heart rate that never goes over 90.

Nothing personal, but anecdotes in PRSI are worth the paper they are printed on.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by CaptMurdock

Nothing personal, but anecdotes in PRSI are worth the paper they are printed on.

But it is interesting to hear soldiers check out each others' heart rates.

Kinky.

[skunk]

Originally Posted by Merkava_4

I'm thinking these so called "women" going into combat are gonna be the men type women anyway. Butch haircuts and the whole 9 yards. Not much difference from having a bonafide male soldier in there.

Good grief. Will you be issuing fake beards?

[GermanyChris]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

But it is interesting to hear soldiers check out each others' heart rates.

Kinky.

Thats actually done for safety when someone falls out...

and you know the point he was making..

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by GermanyChris

Thats actually done for safety when someone falls out...

Didn't sound like the people he was talking about were falling out.

Originally Posted by GermanyChris

and you know the point he was making..

That soldiers are attentive to the rhythm in each others' hearts?

I won't ask.

Nobody has to tell.