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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:28 AM   #126
dinggus
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The problem with prior enlisted officers is they try to be NCO's instead of being officers
I've seen t he opposite. I've had a LT chew out our squad leader and take charge yelling at the whole squad during training missions for trying to make a fake SP time. Let's just say she got pregnant while in Kuwait and lied to us saying she had to go home for emergency leave.

I'm looking at going the Officer route, I'm tired of Senior NCO's not doing their jobs taking care of soldiers, plus majority of the Senior NCO's I've had lately have sucked.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:37 AM   #127
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The problem with prior enlisted officers is they try to be NCO's instead of being officers
Some yeah, but in my experience not on the whole. I've always liked prior-enlisted because they paid more attention to the needs of the soldiers and had the experience to know when they told the NCOs to do something if it was realistic or logical.

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I've seen t he opposite. I've had a LT chew out our squad leader and take charge yelling at the whole squad during training missions for trying to make a fake SP time. Let's just say she got pregnant while in Kuwait and lied to us saying she had to go home for emergency leave.

I'm looking at going the Officer route, I'm tired of Senior NCO's not doing their jobs taking care of soldiers, plus majority of the Senior NCO's I've had lately have sucked.
That's because you have NCOs who shouldn't be getting promoted, getting promoted, because people are afraid to give others bad NCOERs, the board values memorization, and for the last decade the military has needed bodies.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:44 AM   #128
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That's because you have NCOs who shouldn't be getting promoted, getting promoted, because people are afraid to give others bad NCOERs, the board values memorization, and for the last decade the military has needed bodies.
Either that, or the military has turned into wanting to please new soldiers who cry and whine because they barely got any sleep during a 72hr range, so in return the highspeed NCO's are getting tired of this new direction the military is going to and decided to get out and go contracting.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:08 AM   #129
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I've seen t he opposite. I've had a LT chew out our squad leader and take charge yelling at the whole squad during training missions for trying to make a fake SP time. Let's just say she got pregnant while in Kuwait and lied to us saying she had to go home for emergency leave.

I'm looking at going the Officer route, I'm tired of Senior NCO's not doing their jobs taking care of soldiers, plus majority of the Senior NCO's I've had lately have sucked.
The country has been at war for 12 years, there are many NCO's that shouldn't be but that is a debate for another time. There are stupid officers, just like their are stupid joe's neither is an excuse to label.

I work in a commuity that has 74 Flag officers and two 4 Star Commands, believe it or not most officers are squared away.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:18 AM   #130
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The country has been at war for 12 years, there are many NCO's that shouldn't be but that is a debate for another time. There are stupid officers, just like their are stupid joe's neither is an excuse to label.

I work in a commuity that has 74 Flag officers and two 4 Star Commands, believe it or not most officers are squared away.
What are flag officers?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:20 AM   #131
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What are flag officers?
Offices that require a Flag i.e. General officers/Admirials
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:23 AM   #132
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Offices that require a Flag i.e. General officers/Admirials
Okay thank you.

Do you work at Ft. Bragg?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:39 AM   #133
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I work in a commuity that has 74 Flag officers and two 4 Star Commands, believe it or not most officers are squared away.
That sounds like hell. I do my best to avoid situations like that. With things winding down, I'd rather be a civilian than a peacetime officer with nothing better to do than pass down obnoxious orders from risk averse senior officers and spend all my time giving PowerPoint presentations on the army's newest PC crusade.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:40 AM   #134
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There's a reason why females aren't in combat roles. But, I'm not against it. Combat Support has females in it (ie: medics, MP's) and they deploy and go out of the wire.
But was there a good reason other than sexist ones? You know, protect the pretty little things.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:50 AM   #135
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OMG, did y'all see the John Stewart segment on this issue? I can't access video at work, but it was hIlarious.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:57 AM   #136
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I've always wondered how Officers my age or younger acted when not at work.
It's already hard enough for butter bars to be taken seriously, but add to that bikinis, body shots, drucken partying and all types of ass hattery plastered all over Facebook and it makes things ten times worse.

I joined in my early 30s so I was way past that stage of life thankfully.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:01 AM   #137
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But was there a good reason other than sexist ones? You know, protect the pretty little things.
How are the reasons sexist? How long can a girl go without a shower? Sure they got baby wipes, but is that really healthy for their area's for weeks on end?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:14 AM   #138
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How long can a girl go without a shower? Sure they got baby wipes, but is that really healthy for their area's for weeks on end?

How do you think the human species managed and thrived without indoor plumbing for many hundreds of thousands of years, from the Sahara to the steppes of Asia, to the Polar Circle?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:19 AM   #139
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How do you think the human species managed and thrived without indoor plumbing for many hundreds of thousands of years, from the Sahara to the steppes of Asia, to the Polar Circle?
You tell me, they were use to it. Now females are use to all this pampering.

Tell you what, go to war, experience a female dying, screaming for help, crying, begging you to help them.

Better yet, get engaged by the enemy and having the female freeze in total shock and have to risk your life trying to get your battle buddy out of the kill zone.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:41 AM   #140
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By all means let them. If they want to fight let em fight. Just hope they know what is coming.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:57 AM   #141
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By all means let them. If they want to fight let em fight. Just hope they know what is coming.
Does an 18 year old from Podunk, Idaho who enlists know what's coming?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:46 PM   #142
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Does an 18 year old from Podunk, Idaho who enlists know what's coming?
Never said they did. Heck woman go through boot camp now, why not let them fight. If they want to jump walls, go through the mud and play army, have to suffer through the horrors of war by all means let them. Wanting to be treated as equals on the battle field have at it.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:15 PM   #143
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Okay thank you.

Do you work at Ft. Bragg?
No, though when you run down Airborne way you'd sure think that!

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That sounds like hell. I do my best to avoid situations like that. With things winding down, I'd rather be a civilian than a peacetime officer with nothing better to do than pass down obnoxious orders from risk averse senior officers and spend all my time giving PowerPoint presentations on the army's newest PC crusade.
It takes some getting used to especially for a guy like me who tends to be blunt. Soldiers do NOT want to listen to civilians about anything I didn't when I was in and soldiers are no different now. You must artfully establish who you are for me the statement is "when I was a young Infantryman we did it this way" it establishes what you did and show's some humility eventually you end up playing who do you know with them. At this point when afte 3 1/2 years I can tell folks how were going to do things because I've established that I give a ****** about their soldiers and I'm not going to fail. I generally sealed the deal with a memorial ceremony for an SF ODA senior Non-Com. The SF community was more than a little impressed with my 100 hour week leading up to that ceremony to include the MG that runs the show. Now even they will listen and do what I ask if they can. They invite me to jump with them if they're doing a host nation jump, I can go to the range with them and such.

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Does an 18 year old from Podunk, Idaho who enlists know what's coming?
Absolutely not, no one does until it happens. This is one of those stereo types that just needs to go..

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Originally Posted by rhett7660 View Post
Never said they did. Heck woman go through boot camp now, why not let them fight. If they want to jump walls, go through the mud and play army, have to suffer through the horrors of war by all means let them. Wanting to be treated as equals on the battle field have at it.
Bootcamp/Basic Training/OBC are really not difficult. It's a game first thing is to do everything as fast and correctly as possible, second DS/DI are looking for you to start taking care of your buddy. If you do that it's easy sailing all things given I joined at 23 all the noise and bluster I treated as noise and bluster you can't let it get to you..from listening to female soldiers I get the impression they get that faster than we do.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 02:06 PM   #144
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I agree about boot camp, but it can still be trying for some male or female.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 02:21 PM   #145
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You tell me, they were use to it. Now females are use[d] to all this pampering.
So are men.

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...Tell you what, go to war, experience a female dying, screaming for help, crying, begging you to help them.

Better yet, get engaged by the enemy and having the female freeze in total shock and have to risk your life trying to get your battle buddy out of the kill zone.
Don't men scream when they're shot? Don't their buddies want to scrabble out into the kill zone and drag them back? Haven't men died screaming for their mother while they bleed into the dirt?

And, women will receive the same training that men do. And, have potentially the same instilled behavior to move to cover and return fire.

...


Having been in a few messy countries, I've seen hardscrabble women carry backbreaking loads of water up and down goat-trails. I've talked to women who walked hundreds of miles through raw desert with their children in their arms.

One women told me her story. Men came at night, armed with Ak-47s and knives. They began to break into huts and shooting or hacking to death those inside.
She grabbed her children, the three of them between the ages of eight and five months, a little food and water, and she ran. For five days across raw desert with a half-dozen other women and their children.
By day, they were strafed by helicopters. At night, they listened to lions sniffing at the edge of their camp.

She ran low on water, so she stopped drinking and gave it all to her kids. She ran out of food. She kept walking, often with all two kids on her back and one in her arms. She walked so long that her feet are thick with scars even today.

You really want to tell her that she's not psychologically capable of enduring the privations of a soldier?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 02:25 PM   #146
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So are men.



Don't men scream when they're shot? Don't their buddies want to scrabble out into the kill zone and drag them back? Haven't men died screaming for their mother while they bleed into the dirt?

And, women will receive the same training that men do. And, have potentially the same instilled behavior to move to cover and return fire.

...


Having been in a few messy countries, I've seen hardscrabble women carry backbreaking loads of water up and down goat-trails. I've talked to women who walked hundreds of miles through raw desert with their children in their arms.

One women told me her story. Men came at night, armed with Ak-47s and knives. They began to break into huts and shooting or hacking to death those inside.
She grabbed her children, the three of them between the ages of eight and five months, a little food and water, and she ran. For five days across raw desert with a half-dozen other women and their children.
By day, they were strafed by helicopters. At night, they listened to lions sniffing at the edge of their camp.

She ran low on water, so she stopped drinking and gave it all to her kids. She ran out of food. She kept walking, often with all two kids on her back and one in her arms. She walked so long that her feet are thick with scars even today.

You really want to tell her that she's not psychologically capable of enduring the privations of a soldier?
And this is why we as American's need to actually care about Africa. We care only about places that add some benefit to the national treasure, not people in trouble.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:46 PM   #147
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So are men.
Maybe the kids that join now, I'd say a lot of 2009+ recruiters are cry babies.

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Don't men scream when they're shot? Don't their buddies want to scrabble out into the kill zone and drag them back? Haven't men died screaming for their mother while they bleed into the dirt?

And, women will receive the same training that men do. And, have potentially the same instilled behavior to move to cover and return fire.
Sure they do, but it'll have a different effect if it's a woman.

I already stated females do go out the wire. Not alot of MOS's, my unit went out every day for 16-18hrs, a female in each squad. Alot of them whined about how heavy the gear was, there was even one who would lean over while pulling security, and when told to watch her sector she would yell back whining. It's not that heavy, 80lbs of body armor, ACH, M249, and 400 rounds of ammo. The females will be the first one to be taken out by a sniper, why? Because they are easy targets.

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Having been in a few messy countries, I've seen hardscrabble women carry backbreaking loads of water up and down goat-trails. I've talked to women who walked hundreds of miles through raw desert with their children in their arms.

One women told me her story. Men came at night, armed with Ak-47s and knives. They began to break into huts and shooting or hacking to death those inside.
She grabbed her children, the three of them between the ages of eight and five months, a little food and water, and she ran. For five days across raw desert with a half-dozen other women and their children.
By day, they were strafed by helicopters. At night, they listened to lions sniffing at the edge of their camp.

She ran low on water, so she stopped drinking and gave it all to her kids. She ran out of food. She kept walking, often with all two kids on her back and one in her arms. She walked so long that her feet are thick with scars even today.

You really want to tell her that she's not psychologically capable of enduring the privations of a soldier?
I already stated that American females are pampered, show me a female American that will do what this woman has done, I have never seen a female carry anything on top of their heads in the US.

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And this is why we as American's need to actually care about Africa. We care only about places that add some benefit to the national treasure, not people in trouble.
Why do we need to care? I just got back from doing a year in Africa, and all there are is lazy people begging for money. Maybe if the French didn't dumb them down so much, they would be successful.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:06 PM   #148
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I already stated that American females are pampered, show me a female American that will do what this woman has done, I have never seen a female carry anything on top of their heads in the US.
It's no wonder all of these politicians who have no respect for women continue to get elected.

I always wonder what type of people are ignorant enough to keep voting for them - and then I see some of the statements that have been made in this thread and I'm reminded that this country has a long way to go.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:12 PM   #149
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It's no wonder all of these politicians who have no respect for women continue to get elected.

I always wonder what type of people are ignorant enough to keep voting for them - and then I see some of the statements that have been made in this thread and I'm reminded that this country has a long way to go.
I never said I don't respect women. I'm just trying to open the eyes of the people saying this is a good thing. There's pro's and con's to it.

Like I've stated, I'm for it. But, Infantry life is rough, and it will most likely not be equal between the women and men. It's already proven on the APFT for women, they need a minimum 19 push ups between 17-21yrs old, then starts dropping. Reason for such a low standard is because their bodies are not built like a males. Granted, I have seen a few females do more push ups than their max, but it's only a few.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 11:08 PM   #150
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just found this thread, looking to add some insight.

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Just want to point out real quick, if you haven't gone to selection and q course you aren't SF
so did you? since you decided to point that out, just wondering. SFAS 94-1 here. 289 on day zero, a line full of hero's with badges, and then we all went to white tags with numbers and no names or rank. 89 on the last day, 81 selected, including me. if i never have to push anything up a hill at camp Mackall again, it'll be just fine with me. it's all uphill and ALL sand. edit; 196lbs on day zero, 162lbs on exit, and a raging case of pneumonia. freedom fighting is a rough task. just sayin'

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Only thing I need to bring up about is how long can they go without a shower? Plus what about their monthly cycles?

I work with a female and she said there's no way a female can be in a combat MOS due to that reason.
how long can you be in a combat situation, or have you been in a combat situation without a shower. or support. or supplies. not based on MOS? it was your statistic, just wondering.

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The source does not say all women..that's OK I do think there are women in the military that can carry the weight. The question is whats it cost them in energy?
the same as the males that are qualified to be there. if you can do the job, male/female does not matter. after months/years in the field, and lots of JDOC missions with lots of the troop/units you mentioned. go/no-go. if you can get the job done, the rest is unrelated crap.

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As long as standards aren't dropped I don't really care. If a woman can lug 60-80 lbs for miles like everyone else, let them.
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Originally Posted by CHAOS STEP View Post
It seems silly to restrict the role of women in the military, if they're up for it, why not?
agree with this. the requirements should be the same. if you can do the job, done.

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I never said I don't respect women. I'm just trying to open the eyes of the people saying this is a good thing. There's pro's and con's to it.

Like I've stated, I'm for it. But, Infantry life is rough, and it will most likely not be equal between the women and men. It's already proven on the APFT for women, they need a minimum 19 push ups between 17-21yrs old, then starts dropping. Reason for such a low standard is because their bodies are not built like a males. Granted, I have seen a few females do more push ups than their max, but it's only a few.
a FEMALE 2LT that was in my previous unit would kick your ass. any day, on any test, and at any distance. nothing personal, i don't know you or pretend to. this lady was a hero by any measure. male or female. she was a track star in college, could out PT and out run me at any distance up to full marathon or above, and went on to run with the Army marathon team and had a run at the Olympic marathon trials. if you have done better than that, then you win, more power to you... this was one of the most amazing and FIT people i've ever known. and that is saying something. i have several 300 badges, she never had anything less than a 300 badge cards when i knew her. most were WAY higher. i was S2/S3 training, just sayin'

my experience has been enlisted Marines, injured and was sent home. rehab/beer. then, enlisted Army, sent to fight for freedom/pick up trash on several continents. would still be doing it, but liked my wife more than my team. and then had kids. and then got out. best of luck to all. women and men alike.

EDIT AGAIN. just for fun details. the above 2LT lived not far from me at the point we were both stationed at a really big post/base in central Texas... we would get up, put on 40-50lbs packed with water/food at midnight (24:00) and then ruck in to work the 23 miles from post. we would get there in time to change into PT gear and run/lead PT for the company/battalion. and then work all day. and then there was the ruck home due to neither of of us having a vehicle/ride. it was a long walk home...
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Last edited by 4JNA; Jan 31, 2013 at 12:56 AM. Reason: details. and training schedules. and speling. and stuff.
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