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Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:35 AM   #76
Lancer
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I've been waiting almost 2 months for my new 27" iMac, I'm starting to get very annoyed!
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:41 AM   #77
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Removing optical drive from the new iMac is a bad move, I don't think Apple can get a lot of PC users to jump ship.

Windows 8/9/10 touch screen all-in-one desktops will be the iMac killer.

Apple will be an iToy company, not a computer company in the future.

For long term investment, I think small investers should pick Mattel instead of Apple. Mattel has long history, it has a lot of products, children always need toys. But I'm not sure if grown-up need more iToys.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:59 AM   #78
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Removing optical drive from the new iMac is a bad move, I don't think Apple can get a lot of PC users to jump ship.
My wife wanted a 27", fully loaded iMac last year. When the rumors about no optical drive showed up, she decided she would rather have the version with an optical drive, even if the specs were older.

Now seeing all the image retention issues here and elsewhere, I am glad she did--and I suspect, like the rMBP, that image retention is due in large part to heat. You can only make something so thin before it starts to bake parts.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:16 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by apple-win View Post
Removing optical drive from the new iMac is a bad move, I don't think Apple can get a lot of PC users to jump ship.

Windows 8/9/10 touch screen all-in-one desktops will be the iMac killer.

Apple will be an iToy company, not a computer company in the future.

For long term investment, I think small investers should pick Mattel instead of Apple. Mattel has long history, it has a lot of products, children always need toys. But I'm not sure if grown-up need more iToys.
I have my doubts about the lack of a OD being a major issue. Even most desktop users rarely/never use it, and it's fairly easily remediated with an external one if you need it. Likewise, touchscreen on desktops is a useless gimmick at best. Honestly, would you use it? Would it enhance your work flow in any way, or is it actually a hindrance to your productivity, not to mention not very natural or ergonomic?

Also, regarding the high prices on the rMBPs being a sales killer -- this is simply not true given the supply constraints. Think of it this way; where you would ideally price things in microeconomic theory is where you maximize your company's profits, a sort of ideal balance between sales volume and price margin. Without a doubt, this ideal equilibrium price point is far lower than what Apple is charging for their rMBPs; however, the optimal volume sold at this lower price point is also way more than Apple can currently produce anyway. So, given this production constraint as a limiting factor, the new profit maximization analysis simply shifts to selling 100% of available inventory and if you follow the equilibrium curve at the actual available number of rMBPs, the price is way higher and roughly what they're selling it at.

So basically, ideally, they'd want to price it lower and sell more, but since they can't make enough/very many anyway, they might as well price it at the exact price in theory where they'll sell all the ones they can make since that is profit maximizing right now. In the future, when they get the production issues down, then they can and will drop prices.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:25 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
Alec

It's simply not an issue. The DVD drive is far more pressing of an issue.
It very much is. I was considering buying the iMac, but the removal of the optical drive, no access to the RAM-slots, no access to the hard drive AND a higher price tag pretty much destroyed my interest in the product.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:27 AM   #81
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BS, I didnt buy one (but custom build a windows machine) because its almost outdated tech, unupgradable against premium prices.

Well this year I'll probbaly replace the living room computer, 2009 21.5 imac. Get your act together apple .
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:28 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ShinySteelRobot View Post
Maybe now is a good time for Apple to introduce a headless iMac with more expandability than the Mac Mini but less expensive than a Mac Pro.

In this economy I don't want to buy a computer with a monitor grafted onto it, my existing monitor works just fine. I need more power what the Mac Mini offers and I can't afford a Mac Pro. A desktop-class video card would be nice too, not the mobile video cards Apple sells in everything except the Mac Pro (IIRC).

In other words, a scaled-down less expensive Mac Pro with the same power as an iMac, please.
It is unlikely that Apple will do this any time soon. They are still selling plenty of iMacs and Mac Minis, and as a relatively marginalized segment of their revenue stream, desktop computers don't exactly command the attention of Apple's execs and engineering teams.

As always when you analyze a company's future direction, you have to look toward profits and internal development/investment. The economic utility of producing a headless Mac will be relatively low because of the [1] opportunity cost of diverting internal resources to its development, [2] its relatively low margins, [3] its likely cannibalization of more lucrative existing desktop devices, and [4] the fact that the desktop division as a whole is pretty small-volume and low-impact to Apple's bottom line.

Right now, I am of the opinion that iMacs are a pretty terrible value proposition. They are less powerful than / roughly the same powerful as the quad-core Mac Minis, and you can easily get two or more high quality 27" QHD displays with the difference. They key differentiator is the graphics card. I think people underestimate at times the CPU capabilities of the Mac Mini. If you don't game hardcore, it should be more than capable (and far more so than the entry-level iMacs).

Here's another problem with a headless Mac. People will want to upgrade it. A lot. And Apple does NOT want to support people's desired hardware configurations. For instance, they won't write kexts to support graphics cards they don't use. They will not want to become a driver support center like Microsoft has to be. Unfortunately, your best bet would be to build a Hackintosh. It's really easier than installing Windows these days. I too would probably love to have a headless iMac, but it honestly just won't happen if Apple continues to be the Apple we know. However, there is hope. Thunderbolt has been pretty disappointing, but if useful TB graphics card chassis become a reality, you could have your PCI-e graphics with a Mac Mini. Still not ideal, but it's a start.

This is really Apple being Apple. If you've been a long-time Mac user (and I mean PPC and earlier), you know that if you need something Apple doesn't offer, you're going to have to make do on your own. Apple doesn't give a **** about your desires and never will unless it is conducive to their bottom line. Yet we all keep buying...
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:30 AM   #83
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The new 2012 imac range is a monumental cock up. Period. They pissed a lot of people off with the Fusion BS and redesigned the chassis all for the sake of a laminated screen that they could not get ready in time.

Fusion is only really a viable option in the Future when external TB SSD prices come down.

All they needed to do was upgrade the gpu, cpu and SSD options and add usb3.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:35 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ybz90 View Post
I have my doubts about the lack of a OD being a major issue. Even most desktop users rarely/never use it, and it's fairly easily remediated with an external one if you need it. Likewise, touchscreen on desktops is a useless gimmick at best. Honestly, would you use it? Would it enhance your work flow in any way, or is it actually a hindrance to your productivity, not to mention not very natural or ergonomic?

.
In the business sector, there is no need to have optical drive. But for home, optical drive is a must have.

I was looking for an old model iMac with optical drive last November at Apple store, but it was not available. I ended up buying a 21.5" new iMac and an external Superdrive. My kids need optical drive to do homework everyweek.

If Apple had not removed optical drive, more PC users would have jumped ship already because many PC users use iPads. They would like to try iMac and OS X.

I don't like touch screen but I would like to have pen-based touch screen for my kids to draw and paint. I don't think there will be a touch screen Mac in the future. Because Apple focus at iPhone and iPad market.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by apple-win View Post
In the business sector, there is no need to have optical drive. But for home, optical drive is a must have.

I was looking for an old model iMac with optical drive last November at Apple store, but it was not available. I ended up buying a 21.5" new iMac and an external Superdrive. My kids need optical drive to do homework everyweek.

If Apple had not removed optical drive, more PC users would have jumped ship already because many PC users use iPads. They would like to try iMac and OS X.

I don't like touch screen but I would like to have pen-based touch screen for my kids to draw and paint. I don't think there will be a touch screen Mac in the future. Because Apple focus at iPhone and iPad market.
I would argue it's the opposite and far more necessary in business settings. But anyway, I'm not saying no one needs an optical drive. I'm saying that *most* users have no need for it on a regular basis if at all. Everyone's uses vary, but its a marginalized tech for the majority of users, and that's how Apple operates. In their eyes, the small number of people who still need them can buy an external, which they are happy to sell for an inflated $79.

For this reason, I don't think it plays that big of a role in people's buying decisions, including PC switchers. The people who need it will be vocal about it, but the majority of people don't really care about it. I don't speak for everyone obviously, but personally, I haven't build a computer in the last three or four years with an optical drive. Before I sold it to move across the country, I had a monster gaming/work PC with dual Xeons, water cooling, you name it. Totally egregious, really, but I did not bother to even install an OD. Some people need it, but most don't, and Apple knows this. It's kind of a screw off to the people who do need it, but we all know by now that Apple can be *******s if it suits them to push tech in the direction they want. I hate to say it though, but more often than not, they're right, and I agree with their stance in this case as well. It's just not very nice to their existing customers.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 03:11 AM   #86
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It's supposed to be an "all in one", not a desktop that needs to have extra parts to do the same job that the 2011 version did. Who the heck cares if the edge is 5 mm thick? You're not slicing cheese with the freaking thing, it's a DESKTOP computer. Weight is not a consideration and to many people the disk drive is an important feature.

I know that many techies adapted everything over streaming downloads years ago, but out in middle America, people still burn CDs full of music and pictures, watch movies, and have other uses for a CD drive. User accessible RAM is an important feature to most people. An SD slot on the back is dumb because you can't easily access it. Dropping the mike input also hurt certain buyers and all of it was available on the 2011 model.

I just think Apple cut into too many features just to obtain a thin edge and it was a poor decision that is being reflected in the number of iMacs sold
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 03:19 AM   #87
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Tim, you should have waited with the introduction until you can ship the devices!!

No one buys your old stuff when the new ones are introdced...blame yourself!
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 04:29 AM   #88
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Tim, you should have waited with the introduction until you can ship the devices!!

No one buys your old stuff when the new ones are introdced...blame yourself!
funny.... people said exactly the opposite when they were waiting for the machine:
"at least tell us if there is something in the pipe, so we can know what to do..."

Apple did the right move, the bad move is that they can't produce them 4 month later. that the problem.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:35 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by cxny View Post
This is probably the biggest surprise of the numbers at least to me. What happened to the "Halo Effect"? It can't be explained by just the delay in production on iMac. All the recent news has been about iPhone sales but if Apple can no longer produce compelling computers then Cupertino, we have a problem.
Absurd Supply issues + iPad Menace + massively delayed iMac + a more mobile centric consumer market that prefers portable tech (phones, laptops, tablets) over desktops.

I think desktop computers are going to have a big problem across the board in 2013.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:46 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by 1Alec1 View Post
Who uses DVDs? Anyone who uses a camera (except for Sony cameras) uses an SD card and probably wants to put the card in the computer. Anyone who knows what RAM is probably doesn't want to pay the Apple price for it.
They placed the SD card in a bad position. I don't think everyone uses SD cards due to their cameras. A lot of people just use their phones as cameras. My camera uses CF cards.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:48 AM   #91
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I'd say Steve Jobs was right and we're starting to see people view large desktop computers as those proverbial trucks.
Or we're starting to see people reject Apples neglect of the Mac Pro and the reduced flexibility and longevity of the iMac. There simply is no compelling reason right now to buy an Apple desktop.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:51 AM   #92
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Tim, you should have waited with the introduction until you can ship the devices!!

No one buys your old stuff when the new ones are introdced...blame yourself!
They removed the previous iMacs from the online store when they announced the new models so you couldn't buy the old one even if you wanted to.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 05:54 AM   #93
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The last AppleStore I visited had 2 iMacs on display... 2 in the whole store. That's it. Rest is iPhone, iPod, iPad, and MacBookPro.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 06:23 AM   #94
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This was much more concerning to me than the rest of the call. iPhone/iPad numbers, missing the analyst's mark by 800m$, who cares about that crap. This plunge in YtoY Mac sales and the return of the iPhone to 56% of Apple's revenue could be quite a problem for people who love the Mac and OS X. This just sends a message to Apple that they need to focus more on their growth areas (iOS and its related devices) than the Mac platform.

Barring the iMac shipment constraints, Tim said portables were in-line with IDC growth. Well, looking at the numbers posted by IDC, it's not that pretty of a picture since the growth was negative :

http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?contai...3#.UQEXkuVOlhE

If he meant that IDC's numbers for Apple were in-line with reality, then that means that MacBook shipements were down 0.2% YtoY. In other words, stagnant sales. The iMac constraints then caused the plunge which should have been cushionned by portable sales some but wasn't.

At this point, I don't think its out of line to expect even slower updates and more marginal "speed bumps" rather than redesigns. Of course, as long as they keep shipping OS X I'm happy. I don't see it as stagnant moreso than mature. What is there to add but UI candy and Apple's walled garden really ? The solid Unix based doesn't really need updates, the UI is quite fine aside from a few nagging points everyone can learn to live with and its mostly just a big process/memory manager and app launcher. It works as is.

Anyway, dunno what this all means going forward for Macs, let's just hope that Apple doesn't completely abandon them, even if they move on to their massive growth sectors in "all-things-iOS".
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 06:30 AM   #95
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Maybe they're getting to point that they're slightly too expensive? The old 999 entry price point for the iMac was more attractive than what they are now - over a grand.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 07:59 AM   #96
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Apple did the right move, the bad move is that they can't produce them 4 month later. that the problem.
I get your point, but that's basically what I've said - if they can't produce the stuff even for month later - than the introduction was too early...nevertheless what people want....

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They removed the previous iMacs from the online store when they announced the new models so you couldn't buy the old one even if you wanted to.
And that's why they should have waited - better sell some old stuff than nearly nothing (especially during Christmas)...

Don't get me wrong - I love the new iMac!
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 08:00 AM   #97
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Why are people so hung up on the optical drive ? I for one have not used mine in a long time i buy all my music, media & software online.


I do agree not allowing users to upgrade the memory on the 21.5 inch is a bit cheeky especially as the price of buying it from apple is so expensive
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 08:02 AM   #98
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Why are people so hung up on the optical drive ?
Because most don't know that they make external ones that you plug via USB yet.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 08:09 AM   #99
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Why are people so hung up on the optical drive ?
A typical pattern of behaviour - you want to keep something forever, even if you haven't used it for ages
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 08:09 AM   #100
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Why are people so hung up on the optical drive ? I for one have not used mine in a long time i buy all my music, media & software online.
Well, there won't be an iTunes store in 20 years from now, but I'm sure that I can still read my CDs from the 90s by then. And even if I didn't like them any more I could hand them over to my kids. Or maybe even sell them.
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