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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:00 AM   #26
KdParker
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Not sure how to feel about this topic.

I do see the problem with exploiting chlid labor, but if a 15 year old kid has to work to help feed the family do to the circumstances of thier environment.

Not sure what the final solution is, but I do understand why Apple is taking the position of dropping the vendor.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:02 AM   #27
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This is just a token gesture by Apple to act like they are doing something about these practices. It will not affect their bottom line. Now if they dropped Foxconn it would be another story.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:06 AM   #28
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The reality in China is, many kids are done school after grade 9, not because they are not willing to go to Senior High, but not everyone can be ADMITTED. What do you expect these kids to do? Having a job would be a great thing for the family and her/himself. Now to protect them, they become jobless and have to hang on the street all day. I am not blaming Apple as Apple has its own right to make their standard. But just don't say this for the good of the kids. And I am sure those kids who lost their job would go for a new job anyway.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:13 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Puevlo View Post
Just great. Now even longer wait times for products shipping. Nobody cares about a few slightly younger workers.

Actually yes , people do care. they should be getting an education. Something that you appear to have skipped as well.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:19 AM   #30
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Actually yes , people do care. they should be getting an education. Something that you appear to have skipped as well.

The same 'education' must have taught you that Ad Hominem attacks are fallacious...and just down right rude.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by RyanR. View Post
So now these kids are homeless and jobless?
As had been reported in previous annual reports by Apple, the company that employed them has to pay to return them to their families, put them back to school, and pay for them to catch up with missed school time. Part of the contract you sign when you want to supply to Apple.

So these kids will now live with their parents as they should, and they don't have a job because they are going to school.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:23 AM   #32
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I wonder if they would do the same "dropping" of a supplier if they didnt have a backup.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:30 AM   #33
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Does this mean my next idevice will be better qaulity?
But it'll mean it'll be more expensive!
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:35 AM   #34
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The same 'education' must have taught you that Ad Hominem attacks are fallacious...and just down right rude.
He seemed to be very objective and not rude at all, actually. When someone displays callous disregard for the wellbeing of others, it is quite Ok to point that out in strong terms.

Fact is:

1. Apple has been vehemently attacked in the past by (often false) claims that Apple suppliers used underage workers.

2. Apple has repeatedly stated in public that they are strongly against employment of underage workers.

3. Apple has for many years worked with suppliers to avoid employment of underage workers, and has in the past forced suppliers to fix the damage done, and cancelled contracts with suppliers.

4. Employing underage workers is illegal in China.

5. For Apple not to act on such information would be illegal, against Apple's core values, against any Christian values, hypocritical, and asking for very unfavourable media attention. Each of these five points on its own should be enough to act as Apple did.


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Originally Posted by TouchMint.com View Post
I wonder if they would do the same "dropping" of a supplier if they didnt have a backup.
That's a very, very hypothetical situation. And the answer is "yes", because of Apple's core values, and Apple could sign a cheque immediately that is big enough to have a backup within five minutes.


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Originally Posted by alphaod View Post
But it'll mean it'll be more expensive!
And that is nonsense. A 15 year old with forged papers, employed illegally, will cost the employer just as much money as a 16 year old that is employed legally.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:40 AM   #35
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Just awful...

No wonder we have edge bleeding, etc. kudos to Apple for making sure they have competent workers, so we can swap the items out less often. Maybe the kids will stop playing hooky and get back to school to learn some real world job skills. If their parents had finished their education instead of acting like rabbits, they could have bought an iPhone instead of sending their kids out to make them one.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:41 AM   #36
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Some people promoting child labor...desperate people themselves in mind and spirit.

Apple did good here, now also look at what the Good Faith Dong Co is probably pouring into the river. Wages are the least of the benefits of going to China.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 10:48 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bheleu View Post
No wonder we have edge bleeding, etc. kudos to Apple for making sure they have competent workers, so we can swap the items out less often. Maybe the kids will stop playing hooky and get back to school to learn some real world job skills. If their parents had finished their education instead of acting like rabbits, they could have bought an iPhone instead of sending their kids out to make them one.
This is such an ignorant statement about the social/economic situation in China I don't even know where to start.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:05 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by srxtr View Post
These families need money, y'know?

I know Americans think "Child Labor" zomg wa-da-fux but without these jobs the families go hungry and homeless.

gg
Exactly this. It's good on Apple's part for ending their relationship and upholding their code of conduct etc. However, several things should be considered here: Did families forces their children to work or was it the will of the child to go to work so that he could help support his family? What were the working conditions like? Did they work extremely long hours, were they subject to abuse, did they have poor/dangerous working conditions (and/or living conditions, assuming they had room and board there) due to the fact that they were underage?

Or did the company maintain the standard of working conditions, have them work favourable and reasonable hours, etc etc.

Although the working conditions and company polices would have most likely been bad, is there anything else to the story? I honestly would not mind have 14 year olds working there as long as they're not abused, mistreated, or exploited in any way and as long as they had consented and truly wanted to work to support their family.

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Originally Posted by apple.net View Post
The reality in China is, many kids are done school after grade 9, not because they are not willing to go to Senior High, but not everyone can be ADMITTED. What do you expect these kids to do? Having a job would be a great thing for the family and her/himself. Now to protect them, they become jobless and have to hang on the street all day. I am not blaming Apple as Apple has its own right to make their standard. But just don't say this for the good of the kids. And I am sure those kids who lost their job would go for a new job anyway.
I agree. It's like back when Foxconn (I think it was them) began to impose restrictions on how many hours a person could work a week, among other things. A good chunk of the workers didn't like that because they're looking to work as much as possible to make as much money as they can to support themselves and/or their family.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:05 AM   #39
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Poisonivy326 View Post
This is such an ignorant statement about the social/economic situation in China I don't even know where to start.
The peoples RoC motive is to earn as much as they can because they are poor (because of overpopulation). Child labor laws, 40hr work weeks, etc. are there to keep quality in manufacturing. Apple is about a quality product one can enjoy, not some mass produced, cheap as you can make it droid or kindle. The social/economic concern of the general consumer is so far removed from the emotional ties of the producers of the goods they consume that you would have to travel there and back to understand it. Unions prevent cheap labor to keep the $$$ themselves, ha the economic hardships of others. This usually bankrupts the company they work for to the point the jobs go overseas where these laws are seldom enforced. This was a good move by Apple, they probably located it because the work was substandard. Either they were working too long, or I'll educated. This is a fact of life, you can either take the media hype they do it for the kids but those kid, that factory, and the families depending on that income are out in the cold. I am not ignorant of their situation, I am a consumer of it just as you are. PRoC also loans us credit so we continue to be a consumeristic society, otherwise their people would starve. They import food, ship out goods. You can thank our farmers/corporations for our side of the trade. This is why Mexico is in dire straits, those who used to farm cannot compete with our prices, NAFTA killed them. They can either work in a factory at home, or come here and work farms and send that $$$ back home. It is when they start using their skilled trades at cheaper prices than what unions and our workers demand that it causes issues. When they have nothing to do, some resort to the only other option people resort to when someone needs something they cannot afford, stealing, drug dealing, people trafficking for late night services.

Last edited by Bheleu; Jan 25, 2013 at 11:42 AM.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:45 AM   #41
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I worked illegally beginning at age 14. My mom, a working single mother, helped me forge a birth certificate to work at a Burger King. It provided our household with the cushion we needed to not become homeless. I also saved some of the money and used it (against her wishes) to buy my first computer...a Vic-20. I used that computer to make a game that was published, and went on to become a software developer...and Apple engineer.

Had I not worked at an early age, My life would be very different and probably much worse.
People much smarter than you decided what would be best for your life long before you were born. How dare you try to throw it all in their face! How dare you talk about self-reliance and freedom to improve your lot in life instead of resorting to becoming dependent on government to keep you in proverty! You were too young to work, damnit!

/sarcasm
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 11:51 AM   #42
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And Samsung and the other Asian competitors will gladly hire this supplier to manufacture THEIR Android devices to accelerate production, because things like child labor violations are generally not considered 'taboo' in most Asian countries (and developing nations).
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:05 PM   #43
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What's wrong with working when one is 14?

Humans did not just recently become a new species. There is nothing wrong with working when you are young. It beats the hell out of being treated like an idiot in school and not learning a thing for an additional 3-6 years.

I am Swedish, I worked quite legally 8-hour days sorting returnable bottles at a brewery when I was 14 for 7-8 weeks in 1978. My sister worked at a local supermarket the same summer just before she turned 13. You are still allowed to work when you are 13, provided the work is light and does not "damage your health". Duh. And does not interfer with your school work.

Until government intervened, people were adults, worked as adults and started behaving as adults around 15. My dad started working when he was 14.

America's first admiral joined up when he was 10 during the war of 1812. When he was 12 he was given command over a price crew for a British ship to sail it from the Pacific to a US port. Edison, Washington and Benjamin Franklin started working at 12. So did almost everyone in the 19th century. At that time they could read and write, probably better than most 16-year-olds can do now.

Isn't it interesting that you can train swimming 24 hours per week (2 hours in the morning, 2 in the evening, six days per week) when you are 13 but you have to do "light work" in case you work?
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Solomani View Post
And Samsung and the other Asian competitors will gladly hire this supplier to manufacture THEIR Android devices to accelerate production, because things like child labor violations are generally not considered 'taboo' in most Asian countries (and developing nations).
42 messages until one trying to start a flame war
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:20 PM   #45
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So Guandong was mainly Smalldong.

----------

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Originally Posted by Oletros View Post
42 messages until one trying to start a flame war
It starts one way or another, or you may feel you landed in the wrong website.

Now the question is:
"Who's going to feed the flames?"

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayer View Post
People much smarter than you decided what would be best for your life long before you were born. How dare you try to throw it all in their face! How dare you talk about self-reliance and freedom to improve your lot in life instead of resorting to becoming dependent on government to keep you in proverty! You were too young to work, damnit!

/sarcasm
LOL. I was about to flame you, until I read your last line. Well said, my friend.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:23 PM   #46
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So that is why their profit margins are down.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:26 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Purpendicular View Post
Humans did not just recently become a new species. There is nothing wrong with working when you are young. It beats the hell out of being treated like an idiot in school and not learning a thing for an additional 3-6 years.

I am Swedish, I worked quite legally 8-hour days sorting returnable bottles at a brewery when I was 14 for 7-8 weeks in 1978. My sister worked at a local supermarket the same summer just before she turned 13. You are still allowed to work when you are 13, provided the work is light and does not "damage your health". Duh. And does not interfer with your school work.

Until government intervened, people were adults, worked as adults and started behaving as adults around 15. My dad started working when he was 14.

America's first admiral joined up when he was 10 during the war of 1812. When he was 12 he was given command over a price crew for a British ship to sail it from the Pacific to a US port. Edison, Washington and Benjamin Franklin started working at 12. So did almost everyone in the 19th century. At that time they could read and write, probably better than most 16-year-olds can do now.

Isn't it interesting that you can train swimming 24 hours per week (2 hours in the morning, 2 in the evening, six days per week) when you are 13 but you have to do "light work" in case you work?
Yeah, how about those little gymnast girls who have to endure exhaustive training, and take drugs to slow down their development?

Or the little pageant girls shown on TV crying because they are bored and tired, but their lovely mommies want them to keep going and win no matter what, so they can take a trophy home to show their friends and brag about it?

That's real child abuse that doesn't get punished. But if someone at a young age needs to work to make a living, then everyone complains, the government intervenes, etc. They rather see that child homeless than trying to make a living.

That's not the same as a child labor exploitation, where children are forced to work under their will and underpaid, and for long hours without food or rest.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:48 PM   #48
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In America - one of the reasons for child labor laws wasn't to protect children - but to protect adults from their jobs being taken by children. In fact - a big reason why school became mandatory and truancy laws came into effect was because adults wanted to protect their jobs.

I'm not advocating for either side - just stating some historical relevance.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 01:07 PM   #49
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It is a start. Still a long ways to go. Yes keep the pressure up and keep doing it.
Yes I know Apple gets the lion share of the pressure but they also are in the best position to force a real change.
Better than the Chinese govt?
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Originally Posted by KdParker View Post
Not sure how to feel about this topic.

I do see the problem with exploiting chlid labor, but if a 15 year old kid has to work to help feed the family do to the circumstances of thier environment.
My kids are begging to work. Have been since they were under 10. I'll probably let them when they are 15 (which is legal here) just to shut them up.
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Originally Posted by TouchMint.com View Post
I wonder if they would do the same "dropping" of a supplier if they didnt have a backup.
Hate. Hate. Hate. Hate. Do you need a Tums?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpendicular View Post
I am Swedish, I worked quite legally 8-hour days sorting returnable bottles at a brewery when I was 14 for 7-8 weeks in 1978. My sister worked at a local supermarket the same summer just before she turned 13. You are still allowed to work when you are 13, provided the work is light and does not "damage your health". Duh. And does not interfer with your school work.

Until government intervened, people were adults, worked as adults and started behaving as adults around 15. My dad started working when he was 14.
Here in MN there are exceptions for 14yo, and lots of opportunity for 15yo with time restrictions. The "under 16" of this story is a little surprising to me.
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42 messages until one trying to start a flame war
You missed some. It was more like 6.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 02:04 PM   #50
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These families need money, y'know?

I know Americans think "Child Labor" zomg wa-da-fux but without these jobs the families go hungry and homeless.
It doesn't matter. Apple still did the right thing, because Apple is an American corporation. And the ethics of the American society find child labor exploitation to be distasteful. Apple simply is doing what is considered the 'ethical' thing to do for an American-based corporation. It is not meant as a personal attack on Chinese/Asian culture (which may find value/acceptance/necessity in using child labor).
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