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Old Jan 26, 2013, 01:19 PM   #51
citizenzen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
"It is the mission of the Los Angeles Police Department to safeguard the lives and property of the people we serve (The elected officials and property of the city), to reduce the incidence and fear of crime(of the elected officials), and to enhance public safety (public safety is required for city business to happen) while working with the diverse communities (the elected official and city emp0lyees are diverse) to improve their quality of life (for the elected officials and city employees)"
IMO, that interpretation is not even remotely plausible.

It requires a definition of "the people" that I've never heard applied before.

Perhaps you could find a reliable source to back up—what I consider—your incredibly skewed interpretation.

Because I simply cannot give any credence to what you've put forth.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 01:28 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
IMO, that interpretation is not even remotely plausible.

It requires a definition of "the people" that I've never heard applied before.

Perhaps you could find a reliable source to back up—what I consider—your incredibly skewed interpretation.

Because I simply cannot give any credence to what you've put forth.
I've not asked you to credence to anything, nor am I trying to convince you of anything. On this issue the people that I normally agree with I won't, it just is that way.

On a more simple note I have never nor will ever trust anything the institution that is the LAPD says. Their history is just too checkered at this point.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 02:10 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
IMO, that interpretation is not even remotely plausible.

It requires a definition of "the people" that I've never heard applied before.

Perhaps you could find a reliable source to back up—what I consider—your incredibly skewed interpretation.

Because I simply cannot give any credence to what you've put forth.
As far as I know there isn't a police department or sheriff's office in this country that actually provides people "personal protection" to the common man or woman unless they have a protection order that states a guard will be posted.

Now with that said, of course if someone is trying to break into your house they will come, but the reason they are coming is not to "protect" you, but to enforce the law against the person committing the crime.

There is a reason they are called "law enforcement" and not guards. If you want a "guard" that is something you have to hire on your own or take measures to "guard" yourself.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 02:57 PM   #54
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Funny how this discussion dove right into "castle doctrine". I went to the FBI to see if I could find stats on home invasion assaults but failed. They are probably in there somewhere, if I really felt like digging, but TBMK, violent home invasions by thug strangers are not very common. If you want to protect yourself from violent crime, your house is not where you should focus your efforts because that is probably where you are least likely to encounter it. Which means, if sheriff Clarke is advocating guns for the protection the LEOs cannot adequately provide, he means we should all be carrying guns in public, everywhere. Deadwood, Dodge City, Tombstone, yeah, we all want that (if everyone has a gun, that means all the bad people will have guns, which is often not the case).
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 02:57 PM   #55
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
Now with that said, of course if someone is trying to break into your house they will come, but the reason they are coming is not to "protect" you, but to enforce the law against the person committing the crime.
Which flies directly in the face of the L.A. police [which is what we were discussing] credo, "to protect and to serve".

Are you suggesting that they didn't understand the meaning of that word?
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 03:15 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Which flies directly in the face of the L.A. police [which is what we were discussing] credo, "to protect and to serve".

Are you suggesting that they didn't understand the meaning of that word?
To protect what? I understand that you feel the police are your "personal protectors" and that is fine, but we hire law enforcement to enforce the law. Are you protected because the law is enforced? Yes, however from the time you dial 9-1-1 to the time they get there you are on your own to protect yourself.

If it takes them 10-15 minutes to respond because they are tied up with other calls and something happens to you your on your own. I suppose you could try to sue if you were hurt because it took them too long to get there, but I don't think many cases like that have been won.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 04:17 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
To protect what? I understand that you feel the police are your "personal protectors" and that is fine ...
No. It's not fine.

It has already been stated "what" the LAPD is charged with protecting.

But here it is again in case you missed it earlier ...

Quote:
The Mission Statement of the LAPD

It is the mission of the Los Angeles Police Department to safeguard the lives and property of the people we serve, to reduce the incidence and fear of crime, and to enhance public safety while working with the diverse communities to improve their quality of life. Our mandate is to do so with honor and integrity, while at all times conducting ourselves with the highest ethical standards to maintain public confidence.

http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...basic_view/844

Quote:
The Origin of the LAPD Motto

In February 1955, the Los Angeles Police Department, through the pages of the internally produced BEAT magazine, conducted a contest for a motto for the police academy. The conditions of the contest stated that: "The motto should be one that in a few words would express some or all the ideals to which the Los Angeles police service is dedicated. It is possible that the winning motto might someday be adopted as the official motto of the Department."

The winning entry was the motto, "To Protect and to Serve" submitted by Officer Joseph S. Dorobek.

"To Protect and to Serve" became the official motto of the Police Academy, and it was kept constantly before the officers in training as the aim and purpose of their profession. With the passing of time, the motto received wider exposure and acceptance throughout the department.

On November 4, 1963, the Los Angeles City Council passed the necessary ordinance and the credo has now been placed alongside the City Seal on the Department’s patrol cars.

(Reprinted from BEAT magazine, December 1963)

http://www.lapdonline.org/history_of...asic_view/1128

I hope that clears it up for you.

I have never stated that I believe the police are my "personal protectors".

Please keep your imagination in check and argue what is actually written in these posts and not what you fantasize in your mind.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 04:25 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I have never stated that I believe the police are my "personal protectors".
So since you are opposed to guns what is your plan of action while waiting on police response? I'm just curious.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 04:39 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
So since you are opposed to guns what is your plan of action while waiting on police response? I'm just curious.
As posted earlier in this thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post

I would for instance turn on outside lights to let the person know that the house is occupied and that I am aware of their presence.

I would likely be yelling at them that they'd better not continue breaking into my house and that the police are on their way.

I would likely grab my fire poker to hit them with if need be.

These are all measures of defense.
Edit: I am 5'11" and ~205 lbs. I exercise regularly at the gym including lifting weight and am in very good shape. If I needed to defend my house and myself, I could put up a pretty good fight.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 04:56 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
As posted earlier in this thread ...



Edit: I am 5'11" and ~205 lbs. I exercise regularly at the gym including lifting weight and am in very good shape. If I needed to defend my house and myself, I could put up a pretty good fight.
Well there you go. You have a plan. I'm a big guy 6'1 200 lbs. and in pretty decent shape, but I'm not a very good physical fighter so for me I'd rather have a gun that I have been trained on for self defense.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 05:03 PM   #61
citizenzen
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... but I'm not a very good physical fighter ...
I couldn't tell you how good of a physical fighter I am.

But I think in life-or-death situations at least you have a little motivation working for you.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 05:05 PM   #62
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9-1-1 has never been good enough....
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 06:13 PM   #63
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by duneriderltr450 View Post
9-1-1 has never been good enough....
Poor choice of words.

There are many, many cases where a call to 911 has been good enough to alert the police in time to thwart a criminal.

Look. Here's one ...

Quote:
Texas Township mom on 911 call about break-in: 'I'm really scared'
April 03, 2012

TEXAS TOWNSHIP, MI -- She was a mother home alone Monday afternoon with her two young children when she heard someone knocking on the front door of her Texas Township residence.

When she didn't recognize the person at the door or the car in the driveway, she called 911 and got the same Kalamazoo County Sheriff's Office dispatcher who handled calls last week in which adolescents in Alamo and Vicksburg were home alone during attempted break-ins, Undersheriff Pali Matyas said.

The Texas Township incident occurred shortly before 2 p.m. Monday in the 5100 block of South 12th Street.

The woman locked herself in the bathroom with her children, a 3-year-old and an infant, during the 911 call.

A copy of the call was provided to the Kalamazoo Gazette which details the woman's fear and the dispatcher's efforts at keeping her calm while he sent two deputies to the home.

"They're trying to open the door and I'm really scared!" the woman said. "Oh my God. ... I hear loud noises."

A deputy got to the scene within minutes, and caught one suspect coming around the house from the backyard. The second took off running.

A Portage police officer came to assist, and neighbors in the adjacent neighborhood quickly pointed out the direction the suspect ran. He was caught within 10 minutes, Matyas said.

The two suspects, ages 25 and 19, are both in the Kalamazoo County Jail on home invasion and other charges. Their names have not been released.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/..._911_call.html

Solid evidence refuting your claim that "9-1-1 has never been good enough."
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 06:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by duneriderltr450 View Post
9-1-1 has never been good enough....
9-1-1 works fine, however it is always a good idea to have a back-up plan because response can be several minutes out and a lock only holds for so long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
No. It's not fine.

It has already been stated "what" the LAPD is charged with protecting.

But here it is again in case you missed it earlier ...

I hope that clears it up for you.

I have never stated that I believe the police are my "personal protectors".

Please keep your imagination in check and argue what is actually written in these posts and not what you fantasize in your mind.
So what do you make of this then...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 06:29 PM   #65
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Sounds highly political.

Society survived a long time before telecommunications directly to law enforcement.

..and on the bright side, Milwaukee does have beer.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 06:49 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Poor choice of words.

There are many, many cases where a call to 911 has been good enough to alert the police in time to thwart a criminal.

Look. Here's one ...




Solid evidence refuting your claim that "9-1-1 has never been good enough."
Yeah but a few minutes response time will never be the case with all calls. I would rather not gamble with my life and wait for police to show up.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:07 PM   #67
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
It means you can't sue the police if they don't protect you from harm.

It's a liability thing.

Otherwise, people would be suing the police right-and-left if anything happened to them.
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 01:20 PM   #68
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For those that think the cops will be there to protect you in your home, I give you this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Uk3rooGL9AM

over six minutes elapsed before the cops showed up.

and a comment from an LEO from the site I found that link at:

"

That was actually a pretty good response time.

If I was parked at your neighbors house eating a donut and that went down at your house, it would be a minimum of 4 minutes before I would get there. From the time of the 911 call, for the call taker to take the info and type it up, send it to a dispatcher, for the dispatcher to find the appropriate zone unit, and to then dispatch it, and then for me to walk across the street to your house is roughly 4 minutes. When you need me (a cop) the most, I'm at least 4 minutes away--in a best case scenario. People have to be able to protect themselves. "
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 02:02 PM   #69
citizenzen
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People have to be able to protect themselves.
And that I can easily agree with.

People do need to protect themselves.

But ... there are many ways to do that which don't involve guns.

Are there not?
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 02:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
And that I can easily agree with.

People do need to protect themselves.

But ... there are many ways to do that which don't involve guns.

Are there not?
Yes but what are you going to do when the intruder is armed with a gun?
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 02:25 PM   #71
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Yes but what are you going to do when the intruder is armed with a gun?
What are you going to do when an intruder is armed with a gun and yours is locked away in a safe?

Or he outdraws you?

Or there are two (or more) intruders with guns?
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 03:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
And that I can easily agree with.

People do need to protect themselves.

But ... there are many ways to do that which don't involve guns.

Are there not?
I guess if you are a martial arts expert you don't need a gun, unless the other guy has a gun..

Do whatever you are comfortable with...if you don't want a gun don't get one. Just don't tell those of us who are more comfortable using a gun what we can/cannot or should not do.
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 03:23 PM   #73
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Is it ok for me to throw grenades around to defend myself? Just sayin
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 03:24 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
What are you going to do when an intruder is armed with a gun and yours is locked away in a safe?
Mine isn't locked away in a safe...


Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Or he outdraws you?
If I am aware of an intruder in my house, I will have a weapon in my hand.

If I am not aware of an intruder (caught sleeping for instance), I'll probably be dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Or there are two (or more) intruders with guns?
Thats why we have high capacity magazines..unless you are inferring that I get outflanked...in that case Id be screwed with or without a gun.
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 03:25 PM   #75
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Is it ok for me to throw grenades around to defend myself? Just sayin
I'd suggest these instead:
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