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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:01 AM   #1
Thomas Veil
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Republicans: When you can't win, change the game

Looks like the Republicans are trying for that permanent majority again.

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Changing the rules, not the party

*** Changing the rules, not the party: As the Republican National Committee concludes its three-day meeting in Charlotte, N.C., you’ve by now heard all the different ways Republicans are looking to improve their standing in time for the next presidential election. They want to do a better job reaching out to Latinos (see Jeb Bush’s WSJ op-ed), they want to soften their tone when it comes to social issues, and they want to narrow their technological and get-out-the-vote operation gap with Democrats. But here’s another way you might not have heard: Some Republicans are looking to change the Electoral College system in battleground states that Democrats have won in the last two cycles. As the Washington Post reports, Republicans in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia -- all controlled at the state level (in some form or fashion) by the GOP -- have proposed awarding their Electoral College votes by congressional district instead of the winner-take-all approach used by every state except for two (Maine and Nebraska). “No state is moving quicker than Virginia, where state senators are likely to vote on the plan as soon as next week,” the Post says.

*** That would give the GOP a HUGE advantage: The Republicans advocating these changes say they would give smaller communities more of a voice in presidential battleground states. But there’s a bigger story here: The moves would give the GOP a significant advantage due to the fact that redistricting has concentrated the Democratic vote to just a handful of congressional districts in these states. Take Virginia, for example: Obama won the state in 2012 by four percentage points and by about 150,000 votes -- and he took all of the state’s 13 electoral votes. But under the proposed changes, Mitt Romney would have won nine of the state’s electoral votes to Obama’s four. Put another way, if every electoral vote in the country was awarded by congressional district (plus two votes to the statewide winner), Romney would have defeated Obama, 276 to 262 in electoral votes (instead of Obama winning 332 to 206), according to Emory University’s Alan Abramowitz. And if only the states of Florida, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Wisconsin were changed to this system, Obama would have BARELY won, 271-267, Abramowitz adds.
A lot of people don't know it, but in the recent election Democrats overall won a majority of votes for the House of Representatives...yet Republicans still control it, all due to this same redistricting. As long as the majority party controls the district lines, they can game the system to their advantage.

But this Electoral College change is a new one. I can see it happening in my state of Ohio too. Redistricting here has made us a very red state, at least as far as state government goes. An idea like this could get the approval of the Ohio statehouse and governor easily...

...and help create a more or less permanent Republican government in this country.

This idea is obviously a conservative admission that they can't win on their own merits. It's also an admission that all this talk about changing, about not being the stupid party, is more about publicity and tactics, and not at all about changing their mindset or policies to better conform with what is best for the country.

Big surprise there.

Anyway, if this idea gets off the ground, it may very well be the next political ****storm, further dividing our country.

The Republican party really knows no bottom.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:08 AM   #2
mrkramer
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And the sad thing is a lot of people probably won't look closely at this and think that it's making it more fair without realizing how gerrymandered the districts are. If they wanted to make it proportional then I'd support it, although I guess it could be good since if we start consistently having the loser of the popular vote win the election then it might motivate people to get rid of the electoral college.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:20 AM   #3
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This plan has been getting some blowback from Republicans across the country. Not looking good for passage in VA. anytime soon but then again, this is Gov. Vaginal Untrasound we're talking about here.

As for gerrymandering, we need laws taking that responsibility away from politicians.

Quote:
RICHMOND, Va. — The prospects appear doomed in Virginia this year for Republican-backed legislation that would replace the state's winner-take-all method of apportioning presidential electoral votes with one that awards one vote to the winner of each congressional district.

Virginia is the first of several states carried in November by President Barack Obama where the Republican-controlled legislature is considering measures to replace the winner-take-all allocation of electoral votes. The Virginia legislation survived a state Senate subcommittee on a 3-3 vote this week, but two Republicans on the full committee said Friday they would oppose the bill when it comes up for a committee vote next week, effectively killing it.

And should it clear the legislature, Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell announced Friday he opposes it. Spokesman J. Tucker Martin said McDonnell, a Republican, "believes Virginia's system works just fine."

Similar legislation is pending in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, and Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus, who was re-elected to a second two-year term Friday, endorsed the concept last week. Other GOP leaders have expressed support for the idea as a way to rebound after last fall's defeats.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:23 AM   #4
glocke12
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I don't know...

Is the current system fair as it stands now?

Look at my home state of PA....Virtually 90% of the state votes republican, yet is always delivered to the dems because of the liberal population centers of the philadelphia area and pittsburgh area shutting the rest of us out.

How is that system any fairer?
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:25 AM   #5
Thomas Veil
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^ See mrkramer's post.

As far as Virginia...well, that's something of a relief. But it's only one state. And even if the fervor dies down, I suspect the idea is too "good" to be kept down for long.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:28 AM   #6
rdowns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
I don't know...

Is the current system fair as it stands now?

Look at my home state of PA....Virtually 90% of the state votes republican, yet is always delivered to the dems because of the liberal population centers of the philadelphia area and pittsburgh area shutting the rest of us out.

How is that system any fairer?

So you prefer this?

PA. district 172 in 1992

Thumb resize.

PA district 172 in 2002

Thumb resize.

12th congressional district 1992

Thumb resize.

12 congressional district 2002

Thumb resize.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:34 AM   #7
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I simply do not understand how you guys can even pretend to a representative democracy when you indulge such blatant gerrymandering.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:43 AM   #8
glocke12
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
So you prefer this?

PA. district 172 in 1992

Thumb resize.

PA district 172 in 2002

Thumb resize.

12th congressional district 1992

Thumb resize.

12 congressional district 2002

Thumb resize.
to be honest Im not even sure what I am looking at there...
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
to be honest Im not even sure what I am looking at there...
Those are map outlines of the election districts in your state.

http://killgerrymander.wordpress.com...rst-districts/
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:50 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
I don't know...

Is the current system fair as it stands now?
If you want to make it "fair" you should ask yourself what the connection between congressional districts and voting for the president would be ?

In order for it to be fair they should simply count all votes from that state and give electroral votes according to those percentages AND offcourse it should be done in ALL states.

Wether such representive counting should be done state-by-state or for the full nation is another matter and I atleast can understand the reasons for insisiting on the state-by-state method (even if I don't aggree).
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 08:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thomas Veil View Post
^ See mrkramer's post.

As far as Virginia...well, that's something of a relief. But it's only one state. And even if the fervor dies down, I suspect the idea is too "good" to be kept down for long.
I would agree to it if we ban gerrmandering nation wide.

The crap that goes on is a joke. For most of us our vote is worthless for congress because we are in such voter sinks/safe districts.
This means that the representatives pander to their base because they are scared ******** of the primaries not the general. This made worse that the voters in the primaries tend to be the more extreme ends of the party.

The congressional district I am in got a Tea Party nut case and as a whole not a large part of the district is a Tea Party but he won the primary and then won because it a rig district so the one with R after their name tends to win.

He more or less has already said he does not care about anyone who does not vote for him making around 46-47% of the district that he represents that he is going to nothing for them.

Yeah sorry this is a bad idea. Now I would rather see the president move to a nation wide popular vote over this bs.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 08:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
I don't know...

Is the current system fair as it stands now?

Look at my home state of PA....Virtually 90% of the state votes republican, yet is always delivered to the dems because of the liberal population centers of the philadelphia area and pittsburgh area shutting the rest of us out.

How is that system any fairer?
Are you proposing that votes should be awarded based on geographic area rather than population?
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by SwiftLives View Post
Are you proposing that votes should be awarded based on geographic area rather than population?
Im saying the system is pretty ****ed....90% of PA votes red, yet has gone blue for at least the past 3-4 elections because of philly and pitt.

If the situation was reversed, I wonder what the left would be saying...
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Im saying the system is pretty ****ed....90% of PA votes red, yet has gone blue for at least the past 3-4 elections because of philly and pitt.

If the situation was reversed, I wonder what the left would be saying...
90% of what?
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Im saying the system is pretty ****ed....90% of PA votes red, yet has gone blue for at least the past 3-4 elections because of philly and pitt.

If the situation was reversed, I wonder what the left would be saying...
Lies

http://www.electionreturns.state.pa.us/
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Im saying the system is pretty ****ed....90% of PA votes red, yet has gone blue for at least the past 3-4 elections because of philly and pitt.

If the situation was reversed, I wonder what the left would be saying...
I would LOVE to have Presidential elections decided on popular vote rather than electoral. Not as a Democrat, but as someone who wants a more representative democracy.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Im saying the system is pretty ****ed....90% of PA votes red, yet has gone blue for at least the past 3-4 elections because of philly and pitt.

If the situation was reversed, I wonder what the left would be saying...
that should more tell you that PA voting districts are ****ed up. Sorry but a majority of PA votes blue but they are massively under represented in congress.

damn those facts pointing out your right wing lies.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:25 AM   #18
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really...my state looks pretty damn red to me.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/...s/pennsylvania
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
really...my state looks pretty damn red to me.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/...s/pennsylvania

Dude, we vote based on people, not land areas whose artificial boundaries were drawn by partisan hacks.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
really...my state looks pretty damn red to me.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/...s/pennsylvania
so your votes should count based on how much land you own????
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:33 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
really...my state looks pretty damn red to me.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/...s/pennsylvania
You can't be serious. I mean, you have to realize you are being deceptive and disingenuous.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:35 AM   #22
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so your votes should count based on how much land you own????
Maybe out votes should count based on how much tax money we send Washington.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:36 AM   #23
Rodimus Prime
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
So you prefer this?

PA. district 172 in 1992

Thumb resize.

PA district 172 in 2002

Thumb resize.

12th congressional district 1992

Thumb resize.

12 congressional district 2002

Thumb resize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
to be honest Im not even sure what I am looking at there...
we are still waiting for your real response to the above post as it was already explained what it was.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
really...my state looks pretty damn red to me.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/...s/pennsylvania
Here, go learn something.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:38 AM   #25
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Maybe out votes should count based on how much tax money we send Washington.
Wouldn't that mean that most votes in the hardline "red" states would be thrown out ?






p.s. most stupid idea, but was implemented in a 3-class voting system in Prussia during the reigns of Kaiser Willi 1&2
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