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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:06 AM   #26
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this is really a great news for apple's investors!
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:06 AM   #27
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Designed by Apple in China, Assembled in China.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:06 AM   #28
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So apple is bringing some low skill level assembly jobs back to the US while outsourcing high paying R&D?
gee whiz.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:13 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Why? China's economy advancing and them becoming an engineering powerhouse is a good thing for everybody. It increases the world's wealth.
Why? Because china is invading my origin country as we speak. Though it won't make the news.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:25 AM   #30
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Apples push into China is not unexpected. I'm sure there is a large Chinese talent pool that a lot of U.S. Companies are not fully tapping into. Plus by generating jobs in China, I'm sure the government will be more willing to help Apple expand there retails stories and market share.

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Originally Posted by ouimetnick View Post
Designed by Apple in China, Assembled in China.
If it is one of the macs that will be built here in the U.S. it could be

Designed by Apple in China, Assembled in the U.S.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:48 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Popeye206 View Post
This will be a good move for Apple... the Chinese market is unique in many ways and having local talent to help make iOS and other Apple products more friendly to these cultures will help. A smart move for Apple in the long run.
How so? Aren't there enough talented or skilled Americans? Really? With STEM unemployment at record highs, a LOT of proof will need to be put out, because people don't believe it anymore...

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo.andres.21 View Post
Apple obviously wants to increase their level of innovation, but most of their cash ($97bn) lies overseas. So if they put their R&D overseas in like China, they could take advantage of all that unused cash.
I think this is a smart move by Apple to utilise the cash. The economy is better now than a 3-4 years ago, holding so much cash is not necessary.
No, this is Apple obviously wanting to increase its profit margin, at our expense (as customers, workers, and/or as taxpayers) and you can bet real money it will continue to take US taxpayer dollars in the form of subsidy.

And with several hundred billion in its bank, you really think holding/hoarding is an issue?

Is the economy better now? Which economy are we talking about, Wall Street's or Main Street's, since it's Main Streeters taking the time and money to get educated to be of use to these companies, whose work is what make these companies successful...


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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
Why? China's economy advancing and them becoming an engineering powerhouse is a good thing for everybody. It increases the world's wealth.
How so?

Has your wealth increased in the process? Plenty of articles already say the opposite; wages have gone down. Complete with graphs and other forms of evidence.

Do you want to be a serf?

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Originally Posted by lincolntran View Post
Why? Because china is invading my origin country as we speak. Though it won't make the news.
Other way around. China isn't invading us. Not directly... Nor is the US invading it, since multinational companies have zero loyalty to any country, regardless of how much corporate welfare and/or other entitlements they get.

Some articles claim China's economy isn't doing so hot, either... it doesn't take much to see how, what with jobs and working class wealth dropping and all...

Yes, yes, child labor and environmental abuses and all that... let's not forget the long history of melamine and lead and sulfur in drywall, US and other countries flags, counterfeit military equipment being bought by the US military, and - yes - malware embedded in hardware chips to not be detected by malware...

And, ofcourse, iFixit and others showing - time and again - excess levels of poorly slopped thermal grease, warped screws, puddles of oil under fans, etc, made by Foxconn, in Apple's products... Foxconn's history is not exactly stellar, but Apple would rather shroud the problem or blame customers... "You're holding it wrong" being one example and the CEO of the time knew about the phone's defect long before it was released.

The high cost of cheap prices, and Apple isn't doing what it is doing to help anybody. Except itself. For-profit doesn't espouse altruism, not unless there is a greater benefit to itself - and regardless of "collateral damage" caused, directly or otherwise, in the process.

But is it China doing it for itself, or at the behest of these companies that think they'll survive in the end - if we're assuming every country and every corporation is playing some sort of game, of which I doubt they're all playing together, in the form of collusion...

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Originally Posted by Yelmurc View Post
Apples push into China is not unexpected. I'm sure there is a large Chinese talent pool that a lot of U.S. Companies are not fully tapping into. Plus by generating jobs in China, I'm sure the government will be more willing to help Apple expand there retails stories and market share.

----------



If it is one of the macs that will be built here in the U.S. it could be

Designed by Apple in China, Assembled in the U.S.
In a purportedly free market, what is any government doing helping any company and in any way? That's corporatism - look up Mussolini, why he coined it, and - best of all - who he was and why he was fought 70 years ago.

And please understand that "there" and "their" are two different words and you used "there" incorrectly at one point. Sorry to be pedantic.
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Last edited by thermodynamic; Jan 28, 2013 at 11:54 AM.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Yelmurc View Post
I'm sure there is a large Chinese talent pool that a lot of U.S. Companies are not fully tapping into.
Don't be so sure. If Apple tries to outsource anything but the most rote engineering tasks to China - eg, localization, design cost-reduction, manufacturing optimization - and attempts to do actual product design there, they will be in for a culture clash of epic proportions.

When our California-based tech startup recently attempted to merge its R&D with an overseas parent company dominated by Chinese management and engineering, the results were a disaster. The Confucian-oriented educational systems in these countries are designed to instill the antithesis of the "Think Different" ethos.

I think this is basically a save-face move to mollify the Chinese government.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 12:19 PM   #33
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Don't be so sure. If Apple tries to outsource anything but the most rote engineering tasks to China - eg, localization, design cost-reduction, manufacturing optimization - and attempts to do actual product design there, they will be in for a culture clash of epic proportions.

When our California-based tech startup recently attempted to merge its R&D with an overseas parent company dominated by Chinese management and engineering, the results were a disaster. The Confucian-oriented educational systems in these countries are designed to instill the antithesis of the "Think Different" ethos.

I think this is basically a save-face move to mollify the Chinese government.
If the goal is to mollify (or even codify, or anything else in between), and Apple acquiesces, then you can guess what's going to start to happen over and over again... and, eventually, nobody will be able to think different, much less act different... or a worse form of action might take place... it depends on the underlying qualifiers...

I don't think it's mollification. Hanlon's razor prevailing, "Don't attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by greed" is more or less what's going on. Probably. But none of us knows the underlying, full set of facts. Or, as others might say, "the truth is in the middle".
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 12:24 PM   #34
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The human rights abuses in China are unacceptable and things are not getting better. You have got to wonder if this is a strategic move by Apple, done purely to give them more negotiation power against the Chinese Government and in their "courts".
You have a problem with a "strategic move"? Should it be a random move?

And while I agree that human rights abuses in China are not good, why is Apple to blame? Are you saying their workers are abused? Do other phone manufacturers use laborers that are better treated or compensated?

Quote:
Why would they choose Shanghai over Taiwan or Hong Kong or even a Japanese or Australian city?
If most of their suppliers and production lines are in China, why would they build in Taiwan, Japan, or Australia? Hong Kong's in China. What do you have against Shanghai?
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 12:34 PM   #35
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How so?

Has your wealth increased in the process?
Not my personal wealth, but the wealth of the world certainly has, which was my point. The US has a disproportionately high number of engineers innovating in high-paying jobs compared to, say, China. While a poor Chinese person may be forced to labor in a field or toil away in a factory, an American can gain an education and eventually go on to specialize in a cutting-edge field. The reason China has so few of the aforementioned engineers is not because their population isn't as talented; it's because they don't have the same opportunities to focus on advancement. Someone who could be a brilliant engineer is forced instead to pick rice because their economy isn't as developed, and as a result the world loses out on advances they could have made, e.g. cure for cancer, or treatment for AIDS.

So yes, as China becomes more and more of a first-world country and can provide the same opportunities for its citizens as the Western world has had for decades, the wealth of the world does indeed increase.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 12:41 PM   #36
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This will probably be mostly for faster issue resolution & engineering refinement. Being closer to the manufacturing center would certainly help & save on travel expenses.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 12:42 PM   #37
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Apple won't outsource its legal department to China for sure.

If people detest socialism, they have to live with the dark side of capitalism.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 02:48 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by flux73 View Post
You have a problem with a "strategic move"? Should it be a random move?

And while I agree that human rights abuses in China are not good, why is Apple to blame? Are you saying their workers are abused? Do other phone manufacturers use laborers that are better treated or compensated?

If most of their suppliers and production lines are in China, why would they build in Taiwan, Japan, or Australia? Hong Kong's in China. What do you have against Shanghai?
I am talking strategic move in the sense that it will buy them negotiating power with a corrupt regime, at the moment China has Apple by the balls. By putting an interlectual base in the country they can threaten to remove it, is this what its about?

Its not about costs, Apple is loaded and labour costs are irrelevant in this context, start up costs are likely to be more than in the places I suggested. Then there is the pain in the arse of dealing with Chinese bureaucracy and uncertainty, so why Shanghai? It reeks of tokenism.

As for Human right violations, I am talking about their treatment of minorities and disputed territories, religious freedom violations, persecution of journalists, artists, activists...police executing men and women out the back of police stations, child labour e.t.c. The list is endless.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 02:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by RolyPolyBird View Post
The human rights abuses in China are unacceptable and things are not getting better. You have got to wonder if this is a strategic move by Apple, done purely to give them more negotiation power against the Chinese Government and in their "courts".

Why would they choose Shanghai over Taiwan or Hong Kong or even a Japanese or Australian city?
They are in no position to negotiate with Chinese government. Not they, not Microsoft, not Google. Only choices for them is following the rules to play the game or leave.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 03:02 PM   #40
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They are in no position to negotiate with Chinese government. Not they, not Microsoft, not Google. Only choices for them is following the rules to play the game or leave.
Having a player like Apple remove an important asset would be a significant blow to business confidence, they would likely have the regional government on their side. But agreed things are pretty much as you say.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:01 PM   #41
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Yet more capital flowing out of the US. Why not house all R&D right here?

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Originally Posted by winston1236 View Post
Not sure i follow. The Chinese already go crazy for iphones and pads, the only problem is cost. This is probably a move to outsource design to save money.
I don't know if it is intended to "save money" or not, but you can bet that it is intended to increase total profits.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:31 PM   #42
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I wouldn't get too worked up about an Apple "R&D" centre opening in Shanghai - after all, where better to localise software/hardware for consumption in China? I'm fairly sure Jony Ive isn't packing his bags and taking a crash course in Mandarin.

Actually, if you had to, Shanghai isn't such a bad place to work or live for a couple of years: it's a fascinating blend of high/low tech East meets West with a fair amount of history and culture to boot. It's evolving rapidly and who knows where it's going to end up but whatever you call it, you wouldn't use the adjective "boring"...
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:49 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolntran View Post
Why? Because china is invading my origin country as we speak. Though it won't make the news.
Tibet? Hong Kong?

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Originally Posted by audio_inside View Post

I think this is basically a save-face move to mollify the Chinese government.
I think that this is basically a mercenary move to increase total profits for Wall Street. And the rest of us be damned.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:51 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by RolyPolyBird View Post
The human rights abuses in China are unacceptable and things are not getting better. You have got to wonder if this is a strategic move by Apple, done purely to give them more negotiation power against the Chinese Government and in their "courts".

Why would they choose Shanghai over Taiwan or Hong Kong or even a Japanese or Australian city?
Human right abuses in every country is unacceptable. Look at the way Bradley Manning is being treated in the USA what about Julian Assange human right being treated in England. What about the human rights of those pop group members being jailed in Russia. Think no country is in the right mind to lecture about human right abuses when human right abuses occur in there own country. I think this is a good move by Apple it helps brings new ideas to apples r and d team.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 07:26 PM   #45
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I thought all this time, Apple wants to put everything in one roof, in Cupertino.
If this is a strategic move, then it's a great move.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 08:13 PM   #46
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This is what I was thinking, rather than all Apple products changing to Designed By in China, this place will just designing products specifically for them/the Asian market. Where as everywhere else will still have products designed in California.
well Google sat on Apple's board of directors and came up with Android.

Now, China is going to sit into Apple's R&D and beat Samsung very soon..

RIP Apple..
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 10:03 PM   #47
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even though it may be too expensive for the average salary I remember a story of young people selling vital organs in China to get ipads etc
That's right... A Chinese boy who was 12 or 14 or something sold his kidney for an iPad 2 and a MacBook Air, I think it was.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 10:05 AM   #48
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If there is one thing that China is known for, its breaking new ground with original research and development.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 01:35 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by RolyPolyBird View Post
The human rights abuses in China are unacceptable and things are not getting better. You have got to wonder if this is a strategic move by Apple, done purely to give them more negotiation power against the Chinese Government and in their "courts".

Why would they choose Shanghai over Taiwan or Hong Kong or even a Japanese or Australian city?
Because Shanghai is the oriental Paris even back to 1930s. The only city in East Asia that is comparative to Shanghai is Tokyo. Not like other places in mainland, Shanghai is also one of the most modernized and westernized cities in Asia. Do you have any idea how many westerners living in Shanghai?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:53 PM   #50
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China's economy advancing and them becoming an engineering powerhouse is a good thing for everybody.
Their neighbors, especially along the South China Sea, probably disagree with you.
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