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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:52 AM   #51
GermanyChris
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How so? If you catch the person in the act, how is there a question as to whether they did it? If it's on video and you can plainly see who it is, how is there a question whether they did it?

I am OK with it in extreme cases (mass murder, murder of children, etc) where there is no question who the perpetrator is.

Outside of that, I would say solitary confinement with only the most basic of needs administered. No spending hours at the gym. No TV. No socializing in the yard. Make it actual punishment. And this is for people who commit real crimes, not drug users or people who broke into someone's house to steal a TV.

Solely taking someone off the streets for a while is not much of a deterrent. Making it actually a scary prospect is much more likely to create a change.

The US justice system is broken so your idea is t break it some more, from my jobs post:

"We have 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prisoners. 39% of prisoners are black but on 13% of the US population is. The recidivism rate in the US is about over 60% that 10%-30% higher than the rest of the developed world.

But yea lets continue on the path we've been following ya know "kill-em-all and let god sort them out" or baring that throw the in jail for a good long time that'll teach 'em. I mean it's proven effective so far"

If you look a QOL at U.S. Prisons and compare them to the rest of the world you'll find that our's is worse.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 07:32 AM   #52
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Sorry, but the justice system is not about you. If someone breaks into your house, takes your stuff, sells it to buy some sugar, gets caught, convicted, sent up the river, now, where is your stuff? Gone. You get nothing, in exactly the same way that a murder leaves you empty-hearted. The courts are not tasked with "making things right", their job is to deal with the defective human, to make them right. Otherwise, for example, someone like Ken Lay would have had all his assets seized upon conviction, to help all those people and investors who were screwed over by his massive fraud. As a victim, your suffering is not really relevant beyond the fact that you have suffered.
You may be overthinking the justice system. The point is that in order to keep our society from unraveling people need to know that they are safe from thieves and murdurers. You need tht protection in order to get anything done. Reforming the criminals is secondary. After all it is called the JUSTICE system right? If someone commits certain crimes then Justice is done when they are dead, IMO.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 08:10 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by mrsir2009 View Post
Agreed - Why can't you find closure in the criminal being locked up for life?
Because the person they killed is not "locked up for life."


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Originally Posted by filmbuff View Post
I'm all for it, provided the victims consent. Some people just need to go away, and their mere presence here on earth is hurting others. You can say we don't have the right to take someone's life, but it happens all the time. Deaths in war are often considered justified - how is executing someone that much worse than shooting a nazi? (yes yes, the nazi can fight back, but at the end of the day we're still taking a life).

I know that there can be mistakes and someone can be falsely convicted. That's why we have so many appeals for people on death row. I do feel bad if and innocent person occasionally slips through but lets be honest - if you are in jail for 25+ years your life has already been taken away. I guess I don't understand wanting to keep someone in jail until they are elderly on the off chance that they might be acquitted at age 75 and get out of jail to no home, no job, no retirement.
If a conviction is overturned there is usually some form of payment to the individual getting out.


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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
The US justice system is broken so your idea is t break it some more, from my jobs post:

"We have 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prisoners. 39% of prisoners are black but on 13% of the US population is. The recidivism rate in the US is about over 60% that 10%-30% higher than the rest of the developed world.

But yea lets continue on the path we've been following ya know "kill-em-all and let god sort them out" or baring that throw the in jail for a good long time that'll teach 'em. I mean it's proven effective so far"

If you look a QOL at U.S. Prisons and compare them to the rest of the world you'll find that our's is worse.
Prisoners should not have a "good" QOL in prison. They are there because they did something wrong and don't deserve the creature comforts that non-criminals get.

Hell, most all criminals have a better QOL than the homeless... seems a little backwards to me.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 08:22 AM   #54
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If you look at the number of people who have been incorrectly sentenced to death based on DNA evidence that appeared later, you have to be against the death penalty in principle.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:05 AM   #55
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Then there are lawyers..........professional sophists.
You have NO idea what you are talking about.

I double dog dare you to represent someone who is accused of committing a crime you are repulsed by. The system works because lawyers believe in the system; on both sides. Prosecutors believe they are doing the people's work, and defense attorneys believe the prosecutors must be held to an incredibly high standard, less the innocent go to jail.

There is no more noble profession.

(edit) Can you name any other profession that ensures that society actually works? If you're hurt, who do you go to? If you are harmed by a crime, who punishes the victims? If a product is unsafe, who is there to make sure it can't hurt anyone else?

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The problem is not everybody thinks that way. Personally I would want the person dead. The thought of them being alive somewhere, breathing, in a prison in the state where I live would upset me. It's not about wanting them to suffer somewhere, it's about wanting some closure and moving on - not needing to think about them.
This is what vengance looks like, and this is exactly why we have a criminal justice system and not a bunch of posses.

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Originally Posted by filmbuff View Post
You may be overthinking the justice system. The point is that in order to keep our society from unraveling people need to know that they are safe from thieves and murdurers. You need tht protection in order to get anything done. Reforming the criminals is secondary. After all it is called the JUSTICE system right? If someone commits certain crimes then Justice is done when they are dead, IMO.
We would be a lot safer if the theives and murderers didn't have such easy access to weapons of mass destruction.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:14 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post

(edit) Can you name any other profession that ensures that society actually works?
The dude weho gets up early to make the donuts.

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If you're hurt, who do you go to?
A doctor or an emergency room.

Quote:
If you are harmed by a crime, who punishes the victims?
The criminal justice system of which lawyers are but one cog.

Quote:
If a product is unsafe, who is there to make sure it can't hurt anyone else?
A jury of my peers?

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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:16 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by prostuff1 View Post
Because the person they killed is not "locked up for life."



If a conviction is overturned there is usually some form of payment to the individual getting out.



Prisoners should not have a "good" QOL in prison. They are there because they did something wrong and don't deserve the creature comforts that non-criminals get.

Hell, most all criminals have a better QOL than the homeless... seems a little backwards to me.
Again our CJ system is ineffective, period. When you remove a persons dignity what do you expect them to do when they're released?

The worst part is something like 16% of the homeless are veterans, and veterans make up less than 10% of the population. the rest can most likely be tied to Reagans cutting of mental health funding.

Neither subset should loose their dignity if our intent is to create productive members of society out of them.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
You have NO idea what you are talking about.

I double dog dare you to represent someone who is accused of committing a crime you are repulsed by. The system works because lawyers believe in the system; on both sides. Prosecutors believe they are doing the people's work, and defense attorneys believe the prosecutors must be held to an incredibly high standard, less the innocent go to jail.

There is no more noble profession.

(edit) Can you name any other profession that ensures that society actually works? If you're hurt, who do you go to? If you are harmed by a crime, who punishes the victims? If a product is unsafe, who is there to make sure it can't hurt anyone else?
I know my comment was likely offensive to some. There are many noble lawyers out there: I know a couple. But the criminal justice system is farm from the angelic institution you claim it is. I've spent some serious time (hundreds of hours over the course of 10+ years) talking with a former public defender from Ventura County, CA, and it is far darker than most people would allow themselves to imagine.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:30 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
A doctor or an emergency room.
Who do you go to when they hurt you?

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The criminal justice system of which lawyers are but one cog.
Really? Last time I checked, no one ever went to prison without first going before a court where lawyers and judges were the only cogs that mattered.

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A jury of my peers?
Good luck with that. My guess is you can't see a jury without first either hiring an attorney, opposing an attorney, or being in court in front of a judge, who happens to be an attorney.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:31 AM   #60
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We would be a lot safer if the theives and murderers didn't have such easy access to weapons of mass destruction.
If you're talking about semi automatic rifles I definitely agree. But WMDs? C'mon now.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:33 AM   #61
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I know my comment was likely offensive to some. There are many noble lawyers out there: I know a couple. But the criminal justice system is farm from the angelic institution you claim it is. I've spent some serious time (hundreds of hours over the course of 10+ years) talking with a former public defender from Ventura County, CA, and it is far darker than most people would allow themselves to imagine.
I was a PD, I know it's dark, but someone has to do it. It's hard. It has all sorts of moral conuncrums. It is the most noble profession, yet the most derided.

There is no successful part of our society that hasn't been shaped by lawyers.

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Originally Posted by filmbuff View Post
If you're talking about semi automatic rifles I definitely agree. But WMDs? C'mon now.
Weapons... of mass destruction. How do you define a tool that can kill a large number of people?

(edit)
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weapon of mass destruction
Definition
weap·on of mass de·struc·tionNOUN
1. weapon causing overwhelming loss of life: a weapon, usually nuclear, biological, or chemical, that causes overwhelming devastation and loss of life
Apparently, some don't think 20 dead children is an overwhelming loss of life.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:39 AM   #62
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I was a PD, I know it's dark, but someone has to do it. It's hard. It has all sorts of moral conuncrums.
I completely agree, and I have serious respect for public defenders, truly. Sorry if my abject cynicism offended you.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:45 AM   #63
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....speaking of the death penalty, Texas is set to execute a woman tonight at 6PM. She'll be the first woman executed in the US in about 2 1/2 years.

The protests are already happening in Huntsville.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:47 AM   #64
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....speaking of the death penalty, Texas is set to execute a woman tonight at 6PM. She'll be the first woman executed in the US in about 2 1/2 years.

The protests are already happening in Huntsville.
They should kill more women. There are already too many. /sarcasm.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:50 AM   #65
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....speaking of the death penalty, Texas is set to execute a woman tonight at 6PM. She'll be the first woman executed in the US in about 2 1/2 years.

The protests are already happening in Huntsville.
Honestly, I find the "Serial Killers Last Meals" at the end of the article to be more ****ed up than that, in an attempt to make your ending hours "enjoyable".
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:55 AM   #66
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....speaking of the death penalty, Texas is set to execute a woman tonight at 6PM. She'll be the first woman executed in the US in about 2 1/2 years.

The protests are already happening in Huntsville.
When I read your post, and before I opened the link you had included, I asked a few (rhetorical) questions concerning this case, such as wondering, idly, what the woman's race was, and what her actual social class was. I confess to no great surprise at the answers your link supplied.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 10:27 AM   #67
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Who do you go to when they hurt you?

Really? Last time I checked, no one ever went to prison without first going before a court where lawyers and judges were the only cogs that mattered.

Good luck with that. My guess is you can't see a jury without first either hiring an attorney, opposing an attorney, or being in court in front of a judge, who happens to be an attorney.

I get it counselor. You think lawyers belong on some pedestal in an ivory tower and I rate many of them somewhere above pond scum but below smelly farts. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 10:52 AM   #68
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When I read your post, and before I opened the link you had included, I asked a few (rhetorical) questions concerning this case, such as wondering, idly, what the woman's race was, and what her actual social class was. I confess to no great surprise at the answers your link supplied.
If there is talk of prision and the death penalty then poor is always first, and black is always second..

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/video/...ty-Awards.html
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 10:57 AM   #69
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I get it counselor. You think lawyers belong on some pedestal in an ivory tower and I rate many of them somewhere above pond scum but below smelly farts. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.
There are a lot of lawyers.

So finding "many" who are somewhere above pond scum but below smelly farts shouldn't be that difficult depending on how you define "many".

How do you define it?

I'm curious.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:10 AM   #70
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There are a lot of lawyers.

So finding "many" who are somewhere above pond scum but below smelly farts shouldn't be that difficult depending on how you define "many".

How do you define it?

I'm curious.
Find me a lawyer that isn't pond scum.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:15 AM   #71
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There are a lot of lawyers.

So finding "many" who are somewhere above pond scum but below smelly farts shouldn't be that difficult depending on how you define "many".

How do you define it?

I'm curious.

Lighten up Francis. Must we parse every freaking throw away line in PRSI?
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:17 AM   #72
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Find me a lawyer that isn't pond scum.
the smithsonian video liked is a lawyer who is a better man than most of us.

Here he is at TED

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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:17 AM   #73
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OT- How ironic, this just popped up in my Twitter feed.

Another Reason To Hate Lawyers; Threatening To Sue Over The Newtown Massacre
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:20 AM   #74
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OT- How ironic, this just popped up in my Twitter feed.

Another Reason To Hate Lawyers; Threatening To Sue Over The Newtown Massacre
Really? Because it's the lawyers who are "threatening" to sue? Come on, the fact is that the victims are seeking justice and have hired someone to represent them. You dislike lawyers, but in reality, all you are really saying is you dislike people who represent someone else's interests above their own.

By the way, lawyers don't need to be put on a pedestal, but I bet you have never really considered how much you, and all of society, owe them.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:26 AM   #75
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OT- How ironic, this just popped up in my Twitter feed.

Another Reason To Hate Lawyers; Threatening To Sue Over The Newtown Massacre
That guy was a real piece of work, he was just out to make a name for himself.

----------

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By the way, lawyers don't need to be put on a pedestal, but I bet you have never really considered how much you, and all of society, owe them.
Yes, high legal fees and frivolous lawsuits, thanks a lot lawyers.
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