Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jan 30, 2013, 02:55 PM   #51
vastoholic
macrumors 68000
 
vastoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
Your single account is not evidence. The studies I cited surveyed many veterans and used their years of experience to calculate statistics to get a reasonable assessment of the situation. While their numbers are likely no correct to infinite decimal places, I trust their stats within a few percentage points.

----------



I never made claims that Veterans with PTSD own weapons.
I don't trust stats that don't include every single veteran. It's not like the VA doesn't keep a record of how many people are treated for PTSD. Why would they do a study of only a small group?
__________________
View my flickr sets....if you want. They're not too exciting.
vastoholic is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:00 PM   #52
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
The solution: Chant "Guns are Good", repeatedly.
You really think that the gun is to blame here?
MuddyPaws1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:01 PM   #53
SilentPanda
Moderator emeritus
 
SilentPanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bamboo Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
I don't trust stats that don't include every single veteran. It's not like the VA doesn't keep a record of how many people are treated for PTSD. Why would they do a study of only a small group?
Sorry you don't trust the stats. From what I gleaned of the report (there are about 2,400 pages to it) they did use the records of veterans that reported (and didn't report) PTSD to the VA. They also looked at that sample and determined other groups that were not represented in that sample and interviewed them with various questions. That's what a survey is. It's a representative sample. Is it higher? Maybe. Is it lower? Maybe. But it's likely within 5% (honestly probably 1%). If they surveyed everybody it wouldn't jump to 80% or some other number way out of balance with that surveyed. I (and I hope most) prefer the survey over your personal gut feeling.
__________________
My 24 hour web cam! ʕノᴥʔノ ︵ ┻━┻
And remember.
SilentPanda is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:09 PM   #54
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
Sorry you don't trust the stats. From what I gleaned of the report (there are about 2,400 pages to it) they did use the records of veterans that reported (and didn't report) PTSD to the VA. They also looked at that sample and determined other groups that were not represented in that sample and interviewed them with various questions. That's what a survey is. It's a representative sample. Is it higher? Maybe. Is it lower? Maybe. But it's likely within 5% (honestly probably 1%). If they surveyed everybody it wouldn't jump to 80% or some other number way out of balance with that surveyed. I (and I hope most) prefer the survey over your personal gut feeling.
Still, 30% is a LOT for the sample. And that doesn't include latent PTSD. As I'm sure some can attest to, it can just hit you one day. Furthermore, it's pretty well established that the number of reported/known PTSD is lower than the actual number.

But even if you assume best case, only 30%, it's still a large number and it's still statistically significant, especially when you're looking at a murder case and trying to figure out what actually happened.
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:11 PM   #55
SilentPanda
Moderator emeritus
 
SilentPanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bamboo Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Still, 30% is a LOT for the sample. And that doesn't include latent PTSD. As I'm sure some can attest to, it can just hit you one day. Furthermore, it's pretty well established that the number of reported/known PTSD is lower than the actual number.

But even if you assume best case, only 30%, it's still a large number and it's still statistically significant, especially when you're looking at a murder case and trying to figure out what actually happened.
You could also just attribute it to the fact that he shot and killed somebody for being on his property. Until everybody is exactly like you, you can always attempt to displace the blame onto something else. Why blame PTSD when you don't know he had it. It could be an incredible amount of things. Just attribute it to him shooting somebody until evidence comes forward instead of trying to disregard the incident based on an assumption.
__________________
My 24 hour web cam! ʕノᴥʔノ ︵ ┻━┻
And remember.
SilentPanda is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:12 PM   #56
Peace
macrumors P6
 
Peace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Space--The ONLY Frontier
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Still, 30% is a LOT for the sample. And that doesn't include latent PTSD. As I'm sure some can attest to, it can just hit you one day. Furthermore, it's pretty well established that the number of reported/known PTSD is lower than the actual number.

But even if you assume best case, only 30%, it's still a large number and it's still statistically significant, especially when you're looking at a murder case and trying to figure out what actually happened.
You don't know much about how veterans with PTSD and the VA work I see.

Any veteran with PTSD is eligible for VA benefits. Money benefits.
I would venture to guess almost every veteran who has PTSD will apply for benefits. If only to get the money.

And they're all not going to go around shooting people. PTSD happens to veterans even if they didn't kill anybody during war.
Peace is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:15 PM   #57
vastoholic
macrumors 68000
 
vastoholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
Sorry you don't trust the stats. From what I gleaned of the report (there are about 2,400 pages to it) they did use the records of veterans that reported (and didn't report) PTSD to the VA. They also looked at that sample and determined other groups that were not represented in that sample and interviewed them with various questions. That's what a survey is. It's a representative sample. Is it higher? Maybe. Is it lower? Maybe. But it's likely within 5% (honestly probably 1%). If they surveyed everybody it wouldn't jump to 80% or some other number way out of balance with that surveyed. I (and I hope most) prefer the survey over your personal gut feeling.
What I was getting at was there are probably a lot more who haven't either admitted to having PTSD or just never went to the VA for help, in which case, they would not show up in these numbers.
__________________
View my flickr sets....if you want. They're not too exciting.
vastoholic is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:19 PM   #58
SilentPanda
Moderator emeritus
 
SilentPanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bamboo Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
What I was getting at was there are probably a lot more who haven't either admitted to having PTSD or just never went to the VA for help, in which case, they would not show up in these numbers.
How do you know there are probably a lot more? Aside from the reports at the VA that were tallied up, they also got in touch with many veterans that hadn't reported either way and asked them a series of questions. Thus getting a representative sample. Until you have some sort of proof that the survey is wrong, I don't know what else I can tell you. It just seems like you don't want to believe it just because you want to be correct. I personally don't have any issue if those numbers are wrong, I have no vested interest in them. But there is nothing that shows they are wrong that I can see except you wanting the number to be higher.
__________________
My 24 hour web cam! ʕノᴥʔノ ︵ ┻━┻
And remember.
SilentPanda is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:21 PM   #59
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
You don't know much about how veterans with PTSD and the VA work I see.

Any veteran with PTSD is eligible for VA benefits. Money benefits.
I would venture to guess almost every veteran who has PTSD will apply for benefits. If only to get the money.

And they're all not going to go around shooting people. PTSD happens to veterans even if they didn't kill anybody during war.
You would be mistaken. As a veteran I'm very familiar with PTSD, having to deal with insomnia because of it, and I've turned down opportunities to receive benefits because unlike other people, I don't need the VA and the taxpayer to pay for anything more than my education, that's more than enough. I've sought treatment, didn't like the options, and decided with time it will work itself out. I don't need a $400/month paycheck to do that.

And I didn't say anywhere that PTSD makes you go around shooting people, only that of all things, it's the most statistically significant thing to look at, and thus should be the first thing the police look at during the investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
You could also just attribute it to the fact that he shot and killed somebody for being on his property. Until everybody is exactly like you, you can always attempt to displace the blame onto something else. Why blame PTSD when you don't know he had it. It could be an incredible amount of things. Just attribute it to him shooting somebody until evidence comes forward instead of trying to disregard the incident based on an assumption.
I'm not saying that is the reason, but it's a good place to start. Why would you ignore the possibility of PTSD when 30% of veterans on a good day have it or have been diagnosed with it?
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:21 PM   #60
GermanyChris
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
You mean the stereotype portrayed precedes them. According to this article, it states 15.2%-31% of male Vietnam veterans have PTSD. There's a whole 70% of the veterans he could be a part of. Your thought is based on a stereotype and little more until evidence comes out otherwise.



What does this have to do with the discussion?
You learn real fast in the military how to answer questions, combine that with an outsized ego and you have the reason for your 31%

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinggus View Post
Well, does your studies that you read state that majority of people that suffer PTSD don't talk about it? Sure, there are some who need help because they can't handle what they have gone through, then there are those who can.



22yr old male was shot in the side of the head for pulling up in the wrong drive way, got it, it's sad.
It's not about handling or not, my old man handled it from 25 to 60 when my mom told him she was leaving if he didn't go to counseling he was handling it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
You haven't provided any evidence that you are correct. If you do, I can look at it. Right now your statement of "pretty sure" is the only evidence you've provided to counter my evidence.
Most vets have PTSD some cases are more extreme that others, the idea that you are learning how to kill, and the moral/value based belief that it's wrong is removed. Thats is traumatic enough for many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
No they didn't survey all Vietnam vets. That's not what survey's do. I'm sure you know that. They account for error. 31% is an estimate within a reasonable accuracy.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/...vets-study.asp



One could also say that 7/10 are fine. It is also known that Vietnam veterans have a higher suicide rate than the national average. So one could infer than since the study is from 1984 (almost 30 years have passed), some in the 3/10 category have committed suicide and so there are less PTSD Vietnam veterans out there. I admit that is purely assumption based on the studies.

The fact that the person in this crime is a Vietnam veteran in no way means he has PTSD. It also does not mean he doesn't. The article doesn't state and as such, until it is stated somewhere it's purely speculation anyone's part.
Again it's a very real possibility that he does the fact that he shot a brown guy first before asking anything shows he has some sort of mental illness. The characteristic of Vietnam vets is their dehumanization of the enemy. They were the first and last taught this method. When a WWII vet says Kraut there is some respect there when a Vietnam vet say G**k generally there is none. You also have to remember that it's our first war that is whats now call asymmetric i.e. there no defined enemy, they had the VC and the NVA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vastoholic View Post
You want evidence? I'm the evidence. I came back from Afghanistan a little messed up, a lot more angry, and not sure what to do with myself. I didn't seek help from the VA because I found help in the form of my closest friends and battle buddies. I didn't want to make light of other soldiers' in my unit suffering PTSD that experienced much worse over there than I did. I felt like I hadn't "earned" the right to feel the way I did because a majority of my time was spent viewing the fight from a camera in the sky. Only occasionally did I get to go out and live it.

No, you will not find me in the VA statistics of those suffering from PTSD or any kind of emotional scars because I did not go to them for help. There are countless others just like me. I'm "pretty sure" he's right that those statistics are way lower than what it actually is.
I am also, I found refuge in a bottle, and to a large extent still do. When I disappear out of this section, and don't respond to quotes I'm having a bad go of things whether it be temper or memories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
Your single account is not evidence. The studies I cited surveyed many veterans and used their years of experience to calculate statistics to get a reasonable assessment of the situation. While their numbers are likely no correct to infinite decimal places, I trust their stats within a few percentage points.

----------



I never made claims that Veterans with PTSD own weapons.
The problem with surveying veterans is two fold; first we are taught to put country and service before self that includes issues from service. Here is an example, you chain of command reacts to situations where loss of life, limb, or eyesight is a consequence. We take that to heart, my wife often tells me I just don't care about things, I really do but my give a ****** threshold is higher . How am I supposed to report/see a doctor about things that are absolutely normal everyone I know is the same way. Second we have really beg ego's I will not tell you if something is bothering me, therefore I most defiantly will not go to the hospital too seek treatment and I'm sure not going to talk to a stranger.

Honestly where a hard group, we look, act, and seem normal but generally we're not. Just to give a mild example when I walk into a building I look for choke points, I watch the faces of people in the crowds trying to find the guy who's hiding something. I look for the closest way out and I analyze the places I need to go and what I need to do if need to defend myself. I don't go to large outside gatherings because they are magnets for bombs hyper vigilance. My old man hit the ground at every loud noise until I was ten...
GermanyChris is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:25 PM   #61
Peace
macrumors P6
 
Peace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Space--The ONLY Frontier
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
You would be mistaken. As a veteran I'm very familiar with PTSD, having to deal with insomnia because of it, and I've turned down opportunities to receive benefits because unlike other people, I don't need the VA and the taxpayer to pay for anything more than my education, that's more than enough. I've sought treatment, didn't like the options, and decided with time it will work itself out. I don't need a $400/month paycheck to do that.

And I didn't say anywhere that PTSD makes you go around shooting people, only that of all things, it's the most statistically significant thing to look at, and thus should be the first thing the police look at during the investigation.



I'm not saying that is the reason, but it's a good place to start. Why would you ignore the possibility of PTSD when 30% of veterans on a good day have it or have been diagnosed with it?
Have you gone to a VA hospital to seek treatment for it ? If not you should.

And the money helps pay doctor bills.

It's there for you. Use it. It's your right.
Peace is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:26 PM   #62
SilentPanda
Moderator emeritus
 
SilentPanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bamboo Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
I'm not saying that is the reason, but it's a good place to start. Why would you ignore the possibility of PTSD when 30% of veterans on a good day have it or have been diagnosed with it?
I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not jumping to it as I don't know anything about the individual aside from the tagline "he was a Vietnam veteran". I have little clue about anything else about him. Was he previously harassed by kids in the neighborhood? I don't know. Was he a drug user and crazed out because he thought the kid was a blood thirsty unicorn? I don't know. Did he live in a crappy part of town where he would feel threatened by an unknown car in his drive? I don't know. I don't even know what he did in Vietnam. I am not making claims that PTSD didn't have anything to do with it. I just don't see a good reason to jump to that conclusion knowing only 1 fact regarding that mans life, aside from that he shot somebody of course.
__________________
My 24 hour web cam! ʕノᴥʔノ ︵ ┻━┻
And remember.
SilentPanda is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:56 PM   #63
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
You really think that the gun is to blame here?
Well its not like he used a refrigerator to shoot this kid in the head.
zioxide is offline   9 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 04:59 PM   #64
aerok
macrumors 65816
 
aerok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Well its not like he used a refrigerator to shoot this kid in the head.
I don't think a sling shot would've been as deadly either...
__________________
Kangmlee Photography Blog
Macbook Pro 13 Mid-2009 - Macbook Pro Retina 15 Mid 2014) - iPhone 5S - iPad Air
aerok is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 06:07 PM   #65
PracticalMac
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinggus View Post
What's a 22yr old doing dating a 17yr old? Can't get college girls?
Yes, was wondering the same.

I am horrid to suggest this, but some might think Sailors was preventing Statutory Rape?
/dark humor.

Poor Diaz family.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by aerok View Post
I don't think a sling shot would've been as deadly either...
Actually, it can be deadly.
__________________
FireWire 1394 Intelligent network guaranteed data transfer, 1500mA power, Ethernet compatible
Read: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 70% faster then USB2
Write: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 48% faster
PracticalMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 06:15 PM   #66
LIVEFRMNYC
macrumors 68040
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
USPS, UPS, FedEX, and all takeout food guys should refuse to deliver anything to him ever again.
LIVEFRMNYC is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 06:35 PM   #67
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not jumping to it as I don't know anything about the individual aside from the tagline "he was a Vietnam veteran". I have little clue about anything else about him. Was he previously harassed by kids in the neighborhood? I don't know. Was he a drug user and crazed out because he thought the kid was a blood thirsty unicorn? I don't know. Did he live in a crappy part of town where he would feel threatened by an unknown car in his drive? I don't know. I don't even know what he did in Vietnam. I am not making claims that PTSD didn't have anything to do with it. I just don't see a good reason to jump to that conclusion knowing only 1 fact regarding that mans life, aside from that he shot somebody of course.
I'm not concluding anything though. I'm just looking at the OP and pointing out a common connection.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Have you gone to a VA hospital to seek treatment for it ? If not you should.

And the money helps pay doctor bills.

It's there for you. Use it. It's your right.
Thanks, but I've already dealt with it and I think I'll be alright. Frankly, I don't think we know enough about the brain to truly understand how these insomnia medications affect it, and I'm not going to risk anything. I'd rather not be able to sleep once in awhile.
eric/ is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 06:44 PM   #68
aerok
macrumors 65816
 
aerok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Actually, it can be deadly.
True but killing a man inside a car with slingshot might take a bit more time than doing the same with a gun...
__________________
Kangmlee Photography Blog
Macbook Pro 13 Mid-2009 - Macbook Pro Retina 15 Mid 2014) - iPhone 5S - iPad Air

Last edited by aerok; Jan 30, 2013 at 06:54 PM.
aerok is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 07:03 PM   #69
bradl
macrumors 68030
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post

Thanks, but I've already dealt with it and I think I'll be alright. Frankly, I don't think we know enough about the brain to truly understand how these insomnia medications affect it, and I'm not going to risk anything. I'd rather not be able to sleep once in awhile.
And again, following your logic, since you've just admitted that you are a veteran and have PTSD, therefore you should not have nor have access to a gun.

Nor should you be an exception to your own rule.

BL.
bradl is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 07:09 PM   #70
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradl View Post
And again, following your logic, since you've just admitted that you are a veteran and have PTSD, therefore you should not have nor have access to a gun.

Nor should you be an exception to your own rule.

BL.
yeah sure

I mean, I did say probably.

But who's keeping count anyway?
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 07:18 PM   #71
skunk
macrumors Demi-God
 
skunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Republic of Ukistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
yeah sure

I mean, I did say probably.

But who's keeping count anyway?
Weasel words.
__________________
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted the spoons." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
skunk is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:34 PM   #72
Technarchy
macrumors 601
 
Technarchy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
My dad is Vietnam vet, now retired, and had several years of PTSD treatment at the VA.

PTSD is a broad stroke term. There are some people that lose it, and some that go on normally with life.

Either way, I don't think Vietnam vets are more demonic than other vets. It was a tough gig, some coped, some didn't, but lets not make Vietnam the "special" war.
__________________
Steve Jobs, January 9th 2007, 10:44am: "We filed for over 200 patents for all the inventions in iPhone and we intend to protect them."
Technarchy is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:39 PM   #73
MuddyPaws1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Well its not like he used a refrigerator to shoot this kid in the head.
It's not like a sane person goes out and shoots a guy in the head for pulling into his driveway. He could have just as easily done it with a crossbow or a compound bow or a recurve bow or a long bow or some other non gun but I understand it's easier for an anti-gun liberal to make light of the situation by using a refrigerator as an example.

I can hit a head size target easily with my crossbow, compound and recurve bows at any range you could hit someone in the head with a .22 pistol. Could probably do it 40 or 50 % of the time with my long bow.

Someone with a mental problem did this. Not a gun.

Lashanda Armstrong drove her car into the Hudson river killing herself and her 3 kids....on purpose. Was it the car's fault? Maybe it was the river's fault.
MuddyPaws1 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:41 AM   #74
jnpy!$4g3cwk
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIVEFRMNYC View Post
USPS, UPS, FedEX, and all takeout food guys should refuse to deliver anything to him ever again.
I doubt if they deliver to Georgia State prisons.

Best case, the guy has early onset Alzheimer's and will be found medically incompetent.

This incident shows why gun owners should be licensed, and re-licensed periodically. Incidents like this happen every so often. Just the cost of keeping the black UN helicopters at bay I guess. But, the thing that really annoys me is the stream of rationalizations by the attorney:


Quote:

Sailors' attorney Mike Puglise said that two of the people from the car had approached the house where Sailors and his wife were inside.

"This particular area has a pretty high crime rate, a lot of home invasions, drug trafficking, just not pleasant activity in the area," Puglise told ABCNews.com. "What he processed was that this was for all practical purposes a home invasion, an attack on his property and his life and unfortunately it resulted in a loss of life while he was defending his home."

Puglise said that the house next door to Sailors' had been broken into in the past two weeks.

He said his client did not have a conversation with the people and that "everything happened very, very quickly."

Sailors saw two people running by his car and "assumed they were up to no good," Puglise said. He went outside and fired a warning shot into the air. He says the people were back in the car and the car moved in his direction, which is when he shot, according to Puglise.
Puglise is not helping his client. If Mr. Sailors has any of his marbles left, he better fire this guy in a hurry and hire somebody who isn't going to rationalize what might or might not be manslaughter into a first-degree murder of a young man because he was Hispanic and "This particular area has a pretty high crime rate, a lot of home invasions, drug trafficking, just not pleasant activity in the area."


(As an aside, I wonder how property lines in this area run. In many locations, the city owns a beauty strip which may extend from the street 10 feet or so. The driver may even have been on city land at the time of the shooting. For some reason, some people are very territorial about their property and even think they own the city-owned street in front of their house [no one else should park there]. )

http://abcnews.go.com/US/gps-mistake...ry?id=18346144
jnpy!$4g3cwk is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:43 AM   #75
Huntn
macrumors 604
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
You really think that the gun is to blame here?
How can you possible be confused? Stop sounding like one of those NRA deniers, you know the guns-don't-kill-people people... Tell me what would of happened if the perp had not owned a gun? Obviously, guns don't have the motivation to act on their own. They just make it really easy for a human being to kill another as evidenced in this thread.
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   5 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bipolar man shoots and kills estranged wife. MacNut Politics, Religion, Social Issues 7 May 9, 2014 06:16 PM
Macbook Pro 2010 A1286 ( Turns On & Turns Off ) Sparepartz MacBook Pro 1 Nov 22, 2013 08:38 PM
Crazy man shoots puppy in front of kids aerok Politics, Religion, Social Issues 29 Sep 15, 2013 09:09 AM
"Shoot first" mentality kills a 95 year old man iMikeT Politics, Religion, Social Issues 76 Aug 13, 2013 12:52 AM
Early 2011MBP 13.3" Mac turns off as soon as it turns on anonymous12 MacBook Pro 1 Aug 5, 2013 03:12 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:10 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC