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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:54 PM   #126
samcraig
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Originally Posted by i.mac View Post
Difference is that apple introduced a revolution in phone design, service and expectation. BB here is a copy cat catch if I can move with little innovation. QNX (bb10 os) is the best thing going here for bb.
You convinced me. When can you get together so we can tar and feather the entire lot of them?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:57 PM   #127
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Being able to play with one for some time now, they are actual really nice IMHO. The ability to have separate work and personal accounts on the device and the ability to wipe one or both is nice. The "Peak" feature is super nice also, you don't have launch the email app to view your emails. A quick swipe to the left and your email list is right there. Pretty nice.

I liked it, not enough to give up my iPhone yet, but it is a nice device.

The store will pick up and from what I have heard, they are going to have an Android market. The market is going to be pretty secure as they are going to do what Apple does and approve the apps prior to being let in the store.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:57 PM   #128
Risco
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Originally Posted by Peterg2 View Post
Early reviews not promising.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/30/39...rry-z10-review

BGR:

http://bgr.com/2013/01/30/blackberry...tm_medium=home

If people thought Windows Phone 8's eco system is weak, this looks far worse.
Two reviews from biased sites does not mean anything. Come back in 3 months and see what the sales figures have to say. If they can get their marketing right and convince business to buy Blackberry again, then it could succeed.

I think however the rename to Blackberry says a lot more. For me it means that they are dead as a hardware company, and that these devices are proof of concept. In the next 18 months Blackberry will become a provider of an operating system. You could end seeing Samsung Blackberrys, or Nokia Blackberrys etc.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:57 PM   #129
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Sorry RIM, too little to late. You are going to have to come up with something radically new like you did in the last century, to make any kind of comeback.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 12:58 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by thejadedmonkey View Post
I don't think many BB users buy it for the apps...

I don't think you realise that this is not designed solely to keep the current blackberry users. It is also designed to attract previous users of BB to come back and also to appeal to iOS and android users.

Apps are important when you are talking about a phone as a small screen is not able to display many web pages effectively. And if apps are not that important why has Thorsten Heins been trumpeting for months that it would have X number of apps blah blah blah.

The number of apps is not important as the quality and from the two reviews I have cited the vast majority are just not good at all.

Here is what The Verge said (http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/30/39...rry-z10-review)

"BlackBerry says that it's launching the Z10 and BlackBerry 10 with about 70,000 apps. I know what you're thinking: that's a lot of apps to come with out of the gate. Unfortunately, while testing the device I felt like it was really something like 69,000 really mediocre (or just plain bad) applications."

BGR: http://bgr.com/2013/01/30/blackberry...tm_medium=home

"By practically bribing developers to make apps for BlackBerry and by having such a low standard of quality for the store in general, BlackBerry World not only has the least amount of apps of any mobile platform, but it has the worst quality. Iíve literally found apps that have been made for the BlackBerry PlayBook, a 7-inch tablet, and are unmodified on the BlackBerry Z10 so the buttons you have to tap are comically small"
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:05 PM   #131
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Still Bored....

That should have sold themselves to Apple or Google and saved all the Mediocre reviews.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:05 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Risco View Post
Two reviews from biased sites does not mean anything. Come back in 3 months and see what the sales figures have to say. If they can get their marketing right and convince business to buy Blackberry again, then it could succeed.

I think however the rename to Blackberry says a lot more. For me it means that they are dead as a hardware company, and that these devices are proof of concept. In the next 18 months Blackberry will become a provider of an operating system. You could end seeing Samsung Blackberrys, or Nokia Blackberrys etc.
That is the best you can do? Biased sites?

Here is engadget, but I fancy they must also be biased:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/30/b...ry-z10-review/
BlackBerry's BlackBerry Z10 is genuinely a pretty nice phone. Performance, helped by the lightweight QNX-based OS, is more than acceptable. The form factor offers you plenty of screen size in a device that may not feel luxurious, but does at least seem durable. And, bucking the trend, the battery is removable. Camera performance is adequate in most cases and overall there's really a lot to like.

But, tragically, there's really nothing to love. Nothing in the Z10 stands out as class-leading and, while the BB10 OS does have a lot of charm and brings all the best productivity-focused attributes of BlackBerry to bear in a much more modern package, the app selection is poor and the gestures here aren't so good that they make up for that major shortcoming. Will more and better apps come with time? Absolutely, but after waiting this long (and then making Americans wait another month yet) BlackBerry really needed to make a huge impact out of the gate. Unfortunately, it hasn't.

All is not lost: at $199 (which BlackBerry says is the suggested on-contract price in the US), the Z10 and BB10 are a nice piece of kit. The BlackBerry faithful who've been waiting patiently for something more modern will flock to this (and its QWERTY-having cousin) in droves, but there simply isn't enough here to woo those consumers who have already made investments in Android or iOS. Too little? Maybe. Too late? Sadly.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:07 PM   #133
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Even if blackberry can't get back "some" of the previous users, they still have many around the world that use blackberries. I think they will still be okay and pretty sure they will make a profit off these devices. Of course how they market the phone is going to make a huge difference. They still have about 3 billion dollars on hand to use towards R&D for the next device.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:12 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Jimrod View Post
Ahh, 4.2" screen - exactly what would have been better on the iPhone 5, the ideal size for modern use, especially with 3:2 ratio so you can actually read web pages vertically without zooming in. 16:9 is stupid for a phone - It's a video resolution, my phone isn't primarily used for video even nowadays, it is however used for surfing the web where horizontally the field of view is too small and vertically too narrow. Apple have started to become sheep rather than sticking to their guns.

Just wanted to put that rant out there. I didn't even mention the pissy yellow tinted screen again...
In your opinion...
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:14 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Diode View Post
So no more Rim Jobs???!! (SFW - goes to Boy Genius Reports)
That made me chuckle.

A lot.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:15 PM   #136
Risco
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Originally Posted by Peterg2 View Post
That is the best you can do? Biased sites?

Here is engadget, but I fancy they must also be biased:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/30/b...ry-z10-review/
BlackBerry's BlackBerry Z10 is genuinely a pretty nice phone. Performance, helped by the lightweight QNX-based OS, is more than acceptable. The form factor offers you plenty of screen size in a device that may not feel luxurious, but does at least seem durable. And, bucking the trend, the battery is removable. Camera performance is adequate in most cases and overall there's really a lot to like.

But, tragically, there's really nothing to love. Nothing in the Z10 stands out as class-leading and, while the BB10 OS does have a lot of charm and brings all the best productivity-focused attributes of BlackBerry to bear in a much more modern package, the app selection is poor and the gestures here aren't so good that they make up for that major shortcoming. Will more and better apps come with time? Absolutely, but after waiting this long (and then making Americans wait another month yet) BlackBerry really needed to make a huge impact out of the gate. Unfortunately, it hasn't.

All is not lost: at $199 (which BlackBerry says is the suggested on-contract price in the US), the Z10 and BB10 are a nice piece of kit. The BlackBerry faithful who've been waiting patiently for something more modern will flock to this (and its QWERTY-having cousin) in droves, but there simply isn't enough here to woo those consumers who have already made investments in Android or iOS. Too little? Maybe. Too late? Sadly.
Like I said, biased sites including Engadget. This is a far better first attempt than iOS / Android / WP made. It is now down to the sales people to pitch the product and it's advantages. If the incentive is high enough ( good bonus for selling etc ) then I can see a fair few of these being sold.

The big question is how quickly can they move to squash the bugs picked up in the review, how quickly they can fill up the app store with good quality apps and finally if they can convince business to invest via contracts.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:18 PM   #137
samcraig
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Originally Posted by shartypants View Post
Sorry RIM, too little to late. You are going to have to come up with something radically new like you did in the last century, to make any kind of comeback.
Welcome to 2013. The company is called Blackberry now. Not RIM
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:18 PM   #138
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What exactly is your definition of "innovation"? I don't see anything that Blackberry has done with the BB10 to deserve the term Innovative.

As far as the funny comment you made about iOS. Well you bought it, didn't you? It WORKS though huh?
The fact that the home button has been replaced by a gesture for one and the way they have integrated messaging. Maps are obviously lacking, but they certainly were on the iPhone 5 until Google swooped in and saved the day. If Blackberry had put the thing in a metal and glass case and had upped the internal storage to 64GB I might bitten.

The iPhone 5 is my 3rd iPhone and of course I enjoy it. All of my little iDevices work together like little elves and chit chat about the latest gossip. However, its been relatively the same looking for years and years. Yes, it functions well and I appreciate that but seriously--we need something new brought to the table in terms of look and feel.

I, for one, want glitter. Thank you.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:23 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by HenryDJP View Post
You don't even get it. What competition? There's not one single "trump card" feature that would make people switch back to Blackberry or force Apple to up their game. In fact all it looks to be is a fusion of iOS, Windows Phone 8 and Android. It's "OKAY" but not exactly a dealmaker.
True, but for those already on a BlackBerry, like my mother (who's had one since day one), it might be enough to keep her. She loves her iMac and iPad, but has been watching the declined of RIM with dread. I'll be curious to see how the Z/Q10 looks/acts and if these are enough to save BlackBerry as a platform.

While on the one hand, having an iPhone will allow her phone to better fit her "electronic life" since it will integrate better with her iMac and iPad (duh). On the other, she has always loved her BlackBerrys. Especially the keyboard - and always loathed the virtual keyboards of iOS/Android. Including her iPad's keyboard. She has mostly used the original Apple keyboard/dock as her principle data entry medium.

She has discovered a few slide-out keyboard/cases for iPhone, so I'll be interested to see which way she goes with her next phone.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:28 PM   #140
Peterg2
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Originally Posted by Risco View Post
Like I said, biased sites including Engadget. This is a far better first attempt than iOS / Android / WP made. It is now down to the sales people to pitch the product and it's advantages. If the incentive is high enough ( good bonus for selling etc ) then I can see a fair few of these being sold.

The big question is how quickly can they move to squash the bugs picked up in the review, how quickly they can fill up the app store with good quality apps and finally if they can convince business to invest via contracts.
Fair enough response. The problem is that this is not 2007. Apple came in and changed the game as far as smartphones. Android was pretty rough initially and really only became, in my eyes, a viable alternative to iOS with Jelly Bean. The arrogance of RIM, as exemplified by Mike Lazaridis, led them to this critical situation and with all the delays to QNX/BB10 people were hoping (I was) that they would come out with something really impressive. It appears not to be the case, although for current BB users it is a big improvement.

I have an iphone 4 for just over 2 years. The 5 does not do it for me, nor IOS 6. I want to change. I was hoping that WP8 would really be a homerun but I am disappointed, not just with the limitations of WP8 but the handsets. I was hoping that the Lumia 920 for example would have far less problems than it has out of the gate (For months I would look daily at wpcentral.com and I became disheartened). Same with the HTC Windows phone 8X.

Last edited by Peterg2; Jan 30, 2013 at 01:36 PM.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:30 PM   #141
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Not necessarily. Look what PC did to Mac back in 90s. The Mac didn't get better as a result of losing market share and revenue. The world suffered as a result because crappy PC products nominated the market.
The Mac did improve as a result of the PC dominating the market. Which, that did happen because Apple had several missteps in management.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:31 PM   #142
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Aye, I realised that would come across wrong! What I meant was that 3:2 as per older iPhones but at 4.2" size would be better, not that the Blackberry was 3:2 - still, its ratio is better than 16:9!

My bad for phrasing that poorly.
And let's face it, most BB's had teensy, useless little screens - for browsing and most apps that iOS/Android users are used to, that is. Any size/shape of a full screen BB is going to be an improvement.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:37 PM   #143
Risco
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Fair enough response. The problem is that this is not 2007. Apple came in and changed the game as far as smartphones. Android was pretty rough initially and really only became, in my eyes, a viable alternative to iOS with Jelly Bean. The arrogance of RIM, as exemplified by Mike Lazaridis, led them to this critical situation and with all the delays to QNZ/BB10 people were hoping (I was) that they would come out with something really impressive. It appears not to be the case, although for current BB users it is a big improvement.

I have an iphone 4 for just over 2 years. The 5 does not do it for me, nor IOS 6. I want to change. I was hoping that WP8 would really be a homerun but I am disappointed, not just with the limitations of WP8 but the handsets. I was hoping that the Lumia 920 for example would have far less problems than it has out of the gate (For months I would look daily at wpcentral.com and I became disheartened). Same with the HTC Windows phone 8X.
Oh without doubt RIM made huge misjudgments on the future market. They rested on their laurels far too long, just like Nokia did. It is only when Apple finally got iOS secure enough and stable enough to become a good business phone did they really start losing market share. Android is far too insecure for a business and Windows phone is on life support. If Blackberry can win back the business market then they have a winner.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:42 PM   #144
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clunky

this will be blackberry's death blow.
I don't think so. At the very worst, this is just enough to keep Blackberry moving along for another several years if not a decade, an also-ran wth a niche market, giving them a chance to try again with something else later on. In which case this has done its job: the company isn't going to die.

Optimistically, this is just a starter version of things to come, and they will regain significant marketshare through constant improvement and innovation. If you remember, iOS 1.0 wasn't much to sneeze at, either. Try cutting and pasting text on iOS 1.0. Or taking video. Or tweeting.

Realistically, I think this is a very good re-launch, and Blackberry will be a strong third horse in the smartphone race. Maybe not a dominant player, but a platform with a strong enough base of users that will sustain it quite well.

BB10 definitely still has some drawbacks, like the outmoded way of thinking about security that I mentioned earlier on. But they've caught up where it counts, and to retain their loyal base of users, this will do.

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of the mentality people have about new and existing mobile platforms. "Waa waa, iOS hasn't innovated enough. Waa waaaa, Blackberry is only playing catch up. Waaa waaaa, if company X doesn't innovate in some totally unrealistic way that I won't describe because I don't know what I want, then they'll just go bankrupt and everyone will buy Y device instead. Because if I say 'innovation' enough times, I'll convince myself that I know what it really means."

Sorry, that's not the way reality works. People might think they want to be wowed year after year, but hopping from device to device doesn't work in the long run for people who actually use their devices for real things. having to switch platforms, transfer data, relearn your workflow and figure out AGAIn how make your shiny new device useful to you really becomes a time waster when you have work to do. Those are the people who Blackberry is catering to, and even to an extent Apple.

And this is why BOTH platforms are going to continually evolve for the foreseeable future, not radically change every six months just to appease a bunch of forum "experts," with nothing but a case of cell phone ADHD and their keyboards to keep them company.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:42 PM   #145
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I love the comments like "too little too late" or "late to the game"

Companies can turn on a dime. The right product at the right time can make all the difference. Do I think Blackberry has it this time - maybe not. But to "condemn" them for changing gears and bringing some new products to the market is ridiculous.

You know - people said Apple was too late in the game to enter the cell phone market.
Totally. I thought the same thing of the iPad - "why would I want one of those, I already have an iPhone, that does all the same stuff" and "there's already the iPod Touch that does all the same stuff" and "it's the same only bigger"...

...until I got one.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:44 PM   #146
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Doa, imo.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:49 PM   #147
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I like the look of the black one
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:52 PM   #148
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The fact that the home button has been replaced by a gesture for one and the way they have integrated messaging.
I, for one, want glitter. Thank you.
Yeah, using a gesture rather than home button is certainly "glitter".

Seriously, if Apple removed the home button and replaced it with a swipe and called it a "feature" this forum alone would be calling Apple's idea of a new feature, CRAP. But if another manufacturer does it, it's called "innovation".
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:52 PM   #149
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True, but for those already on a BlackBerry, like my mother (who's had one since day one), it might be enough to keep her. She loves her iMac and iPad, but has been watching the declined of RIM with dread. I'll be curious to see how the Z/Q10 looks/acts and if these are enough to save BlackBerry as a platform.

While on the one hand, having an iPhone will allow her phone to better fit her "electronic life" since it will integrate better with her iMac and iPad (duh). On the other, she has always loved her BlackBerrys. Especially the keyboard - and always loathed the virtual keyboards of iOS/Android. Including her iPad's keyboard. She has mostly used the original Apple keyboard/dock as her principle data entry medium.

She has discovered a few slide-out keyboard/cases for iPhone, so I'll be interested to see which way she goes with her next phone.
I agree. It is all about the physical keys. That market has been nearly entirely abandoned. If Blackberry can get the Q10 out and it is as solid as I suspect it will be, they will have a niche. And a niche in a market the size of smartphones is darn significant. I mean half of Apple's revenue comes from the iPhone and that is based on just 20% of the global smartphone market. If RIM can stop the bleeding and hold 10% of new smartphone sales, that will be huge (and easily justify their current stock price).

My Mom isn't buying any Apps on her hand me down iPhone 4. And she certainly isn't enjoying the virtual keyboard. But will she ever go back to a dumb phone? I doubt it. She might really like the Q10. So there isn't just the current blackberry users to consider. There is potential to increase the user base as the smartphone market increases deeper and deeper into society (and farther from technical folks like us).
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 01:54 PM   #150
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I hope it does well enough to keep Apple and Google on their toes. Competition improves the breed.
You would think so wouldn't you? But Apple doesn't seem to be learning. Lol
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