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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:41 PM   #1
50548
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Moderation standards and excesses

Dear Moderators,

Obviously this message may come across as blunt, or perhaps even infringe some implied "do not talk publicly about moderation actions" policy here.

In any case, I am posting this thread after some 10 days of "suspension" from these forums, as if I were some sort of naughty kid breaking school desks or the like.

I have owned Apple devices since 1989, and actively participate in this forum since 2005, not only contributing to discussions but also providing advice (whenever I can) to younger and/or newer users. I may also be known for my sometimes caustic or provoking remarks, which are in no way intended to offend individual members (with the only obvious exception being offensive remarks against me, which are promptly responded in kind even if this entails some sort of "double standard" measure by some moderators).

As written to a member of the moderation team a few days ago, I can only regret the decision to deem my use of the admittedly-derogatory term "droidtards" as extremely "offensive" to a member or members, even though no one was targeted in particular. On the contrary, the term "droidtards" was simply a general comment directed at those who thought Apple was "doomed" in the smartphone arena.

To draw a parallel, this was just as "offensive" as on the countless occasions where MR members critical of Apple and its customers have employed the term "iLemmings", "iSheep" or similar provocative expressions. Did I feel personally offended? Of course not, because I do not consider myself "wearing that hat" anyway, nor would I worry about such nonsensical remarks. The same applies for any sensible Android user, who will not feel offended by my generic remark unless he deems, himself, as a less-than-enlightened individual in an Apple-centric forum.

So although I was not surprised by your decision to apply that suspension, I can only regret the increasingly-worrying pattern of double standards and arbitrary decisions concerning longtime members of the community, who end up constituting the very pattern of success for this forum and are always willing to provide assistance to those who need it.

Moreover, my criticism goes to the manner used for implementing such suspensions, where no legitimate means for counter-arguing are put at the disposal of members (not to mention the fact that one never knows which specific moderator has single-handedly decided against a certain post).

Instead, a longtime MR member and enthusiastic contributor to this forum receives a 10-day suspension without any prior warning, means of redress or even discussion before such an extreme measure was adopted.

Once more: NO SINGLE individual has been attacked by the generic comment; a 10-day suspension was absolutely disproportional to the alleged "harm" caused (none, in fact); and such arbitrary decision goes against the very core of a functioning community, which is to allow for candid exchanges (however controversial) and to enable members to help others whenever necessary (something that I have done countless times on MR without receiving a single penny in return).

As for the threat of "future escalation" expressed by someone from the moderation team, I can only reject to be treated as a "rebel infant", especially when the first suspension was caused by a legitimate reaction to a direct offense that was NOT dealt with accordingly, at least as transparency in terms of the measures taken is concerned.

My final recommendations: (1) enable users (especially longtime ones/those who are clearly NOT stupid kids/trolls/one-time posters) to counter-argue before an excessive measure is taken; (2) make sure that you COMMUNICATE what measures have been taken to protect a member when others are also involved in a certain situation (otherwise, how is one supposed to know whether his own suspension is fair?); and (3) ensure proportionality to the measures taken.

Best,

BRLawyer
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:46 PM   #2
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BRLawyer,
since you're raising specific moderation actions, do you wish to waive your privacy rights so the admins can address complaints and issues?
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:50 PM   #3
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Or.....steer your language from not able to be considered offensive by anyone.

What point or reaction were you trying to achieve by using the term which you used? In no way, can "droidtards" be viewed as a positive contribution towards a thread. Just my opinion

Also, to my understanding, the punishments take into account prior history. If it was your first offense (no idea if it was) then the penalty is usually light or a warning. If you have had repeated cases of this behavior, then the penalty may be more severe for the same offense.

If you see the usage of isheep or other terms like that, it doesn't excuse the use of that style of insults in my opinion. I would just report and move on. The mods don't monitor every post of every thread.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:54 PM   #4
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Good grief. Get rid of the legalese and just friggin talk .

I've been on both sides good and bad.

This form letter crap has got to stop and everybody needs to become a human again.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:57 PM   #5
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Anything can be twisted to be offensive to just about anyone.

There are a number of supposed offenses I have encountered that would not be concerned offensive to a normal, mature adult.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Good grief. Get rid of the legalese and just friggin talk .

I've been on both sides good and bad.

This form letter crap has got to stop and everybody needs to become a human again.
Who is the audience for your post? Mods or members?
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:04 PM   #6
Peace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessica. View Post
Anything can be twisted to be offensive to just about anyone.

There are a number of supposed offenses I have encountered that would not be concerned offensive to a normal, mature adult.

----------



Who is the audience for your post? Mods or members?
Whoever will listen. The form letter was directed at Q to be honest.



And as far as insults ?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...8&postcount=11

One can go to almost any long thread and find tons of insults and infractions but we are asked to report them.

Well kids if moderators need regular members help in moderating I'd say MR needs either more cops or fewer laws.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:04 PM   #7
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I've been suggesting democracy on the web for years. People usually just laugh at me. This is a good example of why it's needed though. We don't really have any say in anything you mods do at all. I understand it would slow everything down tremendously, but that's kinda the point of democracy when all's said and done. Slow things down so each part can be analyzed fairly.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRLawyer View Post
Dear Moderators,

Obviously this message may come across as blunt, or perhaps even infringe some implied "do not talk publicly about moderation actions" policy here.

In any case, I am posting this thread after some 10 days of "suspension" from these forums, as if I were some sort of naughty kid breaking school desks or the like.

I have owned Apple devices since 1989, and actively participate in this forum since 2005, not only contributing to discussions but also providing advice (whenever I can) to younger and/or newer users. I may also be known for my sometimes caustic
not caustic bro god damb
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:25 PM   #9
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Hell. I'll get the ball rolling. hehe

BRLawyer you often go to an extreme when making comments about Apple,Microsoft,Samsung et.al.

People know it. You know it and more importantly the mods know it. You probably even have your own little thread in the moderator forum. As do I I'm sure.

That's probably why the hammer fell on you.

I've gotten mine. A couple of times. Deal with it. These people here are never going to change their minds. Too much pride at stake.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
BRLawyer,
since you're raising specific moderation actions, do you wish to waive your privacy rights so the admins can address complaints and issues?
I'll repeat this question. If you give us a waiver, I can post a review of your moderation history and correct the inaccurate information you've given in your post.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConCat View Post
This is why democracies are truly remarkable things. The leaders never have any incentive to start one, in fact, quite the opposite. Dictatorships and monarchies are what you get normally. If you want to do things the way you do them, you have the right, this is Arn and co's site and yours to do with as you please, but don't pretend that not giving the users a say is somehow the best way to do things, otherwise you can go move to North Korea.
This site is amongst the more lenient ones I know of and participate in.

Some sites ban you for the most frivolous things. At least here, the mod team is somewhat responsible and fair with dealings of how they act.

And this is a forum. Not a country. I support Arn to do whatever he wants with this site. If I don't like it or get fed up with how it is being handled, I'll leave. Until then, I won't.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:31 PM   #12
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tl;dr

re moderation excess, after one timeout expired, a moderator was kind enough to actively go through my post history looking for other deemed infractions and then gave me another one.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
These people here are never going to change their minds. Too much pride at stake.

Coincidently, I've heard similar sentiments from several former moderators of the site. And my favorite is the current mod who favorites any tweet of mine that is critical of MR.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:42 PM   #14
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It probably doesn't mean much but as someone who both owns an Android device and is mentally ill I do not find the term "droidtards" at all offensive and IMHO it's petty thing to issue a ban over. It's the internet, man, not daytime TV.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d4rkc4sm View Post
tl;dr

re moderation excess, after one timeout expired, a moderator was kind enough to actively go through my post history looking for other deemed infractions and then gave me another one.
ADMIN NOTE:

Just so there's no confusion whatsoever: any moderation done is on the basis of what the moderators believe to be a violation of the rules. When members sign up here, they agree to follow these rules. No moderation is ever done out of spite. Under any circumstances.

If the OP responds to our request for clarification as to a waiver within a reasonable amount of time (and I'll point out that the waiver should have been expressed in the first post), we will allow this thread to stay open. Any other comments about specific moderation are off-topic and will be treated as such.

There's a system in place for disputing moderation - please use it.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0dev View Post
It probably doesn't mean much but as someone who both owns an Android device and is mentally ill I do not find the term "droidtards" at all offensive and IMHO it's petty thing to issue a ban over. It's the internet, man, not daytime TV.
Yes, agreed, 'it is the internet and not day time TV', and is a new medium with an evolving etiquette of behaviour, but that does not excuse a lack of courtesy and rudeness online, cloaked by anonymity. Surely it should be possible to have a public disagreement in print and to express a profound difference of opinion without having to resort to insults?
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scepticalscribe View Post
Yes, agreed, 'it is the internet and not day time TV', and is a new medium with an evolving etiquette of behaviour, but that does not excuse a lack of courtesy and rudeness online, cloaked by anonymity. Surely it should be possible to have a public disagreement in print and to express a profound difference of opinion without having to resort to insults?
Sure, but my point is I don't see why it's banworthy. Surely I'm exactly the kind of person this is meant to offend? I just found the word funny.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scepticalscribe View Post
Yes, agreed, 'it is the internet and not day time TV', and is a new medium with an evolving etiquette of behaviour, but that does not excuse a lack of courtesy and rudeness online, cloaked by anonymity. Surely it should be possible to have a public disagreement in print and to express a profound difference of opinion without having to resort to insults?
Right......

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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0dev View Post
Sure, but my point is I don't see why it's banworthy. Surely I'm exactly the kind of person this is meant to offend? I just found the word funny.
It's quite simple really: People are easily offended, and some people seem to go out of their way to come up with ways to interpret things offensively. It's more of an art than a science.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 04:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0dev View Post
Sure, but my point is I don't see why it's banworthy. Surely I'm exactly the kind of person this is meant to offend? I just found the word funny.
I agree that it is not necessarily 'ban-worthy', but I also think that there is no need to dress disagreement in insults; what is wrong with disagreeing with someone, and making your case, rather than insulting them?

The Android threads are known to be contentious, and, as the topic (and associated disagreements) don't really bother me, I stay well away from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Right......

Image
Aw, that's nice. A lovely picture, and in colour, too. Why, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConCat View Post
It's quite simple really: People are easily offended, and some people seem to go out of their way to come up with ways to interpret things offensively. It's more of an art than a science.
Granted, it is a peculiar and specific art form, but I am still at a loss to understand why personally offensive posts are preferred (by those who make them) to reasoned argument and serious debate.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 04:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConCat View Post
I've been suggesting democracy on the web for years. People usually just laugh at me. This is a good example of why it's needed though. We don't really have any say in anything you mods do at all. I understand it would slow everything down tremendously, but that's kinda the point of democracy when all's said and done. Slow things down so each part can be analyzed fairly.
Except you donít live in MacRumors
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 04:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsir2009 View Post
Except you donít live in MacRumors
That really doesn't matter in the least. The principle is the same.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 07:19 PM   #23
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Just go :10 in:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8k...n#.UQhmxx082zJ
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:12 PM   #24
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I just wish that violations were measured by frequency instead of just simply escalated.

If you committed a violation, and were suspended for a month after having a warning, a year later, you should get a warning before being suspended for two months. Provided of course the infraction necessitates appropriate escalation.

FWIW, I recently appealed a moderator decision and was granted mercy and had my two month suspension reversed. I can attest that the forum moderators do review petitions and they do try their best to look at things objectively.

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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:18 PM   #25
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The offense here shouldn't be using "droidtards" to insult Android people, it should be using "retarded" as an insult which is pretty offensive to people who have mental retardation. It's just as bad as using "gay" to refer to something stupid.
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