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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:20 AM   #76
Mike1984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sectime View Post
What could the risk be using Java to access your bank account?
Exactly None.
Apple should NOT BE BLOCKING HTTPS web sites that use Java Plugins.
Especially as Java 7 now has Java FX, with better Table handling and Charts.
It looks like Apple Envy, attempt to Force People to HTML5,
vs. a superior Technology: Java 7.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:22 AM   #77
DaveTheRave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonatron View Post
Classic if it doesnt affect me its not important.
Yeah, to be followed by "removing Java is a feature!"
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:23 AM   #78
Thunderhawks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyBlast! View Post
So Apple is actively trying to stop your computer from being exploited by hackers and you think that is unacceptable?

What would you say if they did nothing and your machine got hacked?
Not the point.

As a user I should be asked. (Don't care about the wording)

Nobody comes to your house without permission and blocks one of your TV channels, saying you don't need it because it's dangerous.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:26 AM   #79
Rocketman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sseaton1971 View Post
I am still using 10.6 on my personal laptop, and several of the laptops I deploy in our school district still are at 10.6. Both Java and the browser plugin are working fine. Did the standalone Java app you are using get updated? Perhaps it requires a newer version?
After reading this thread and reviewing my error messages, I am wondering if the change that bothers me is on the server side. It is a standalone Java app that logs into a server to provide very extensive financial data.

On 1-11-13 it suddenly choked on my Java version. It is not upgradable at all.

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:27 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhawks View Post
Not the point.

As a user I should be asked. (Don't care about the wording)

Nobody comes to your house without permission and blocks one of your TV channels, saying you don't need it because it's dangerous.
You should ask for protection? It's called Prevention. Do you ask to police to protect you when you're being robbed or beaten? No they just do because it's their goddamn job. What kind of dumb logic is this.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:30 AM   #81
Ralf The Dog
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The real question is, "Why do banks and other organizations continue to use Java?" I get that it is cross platform. Are they using some Java based encryption? If so, I would think, they would be safer to require a native browser plugin.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:35 AM   #82
Bubba Satori
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Apple should just buy Java.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:36 AM   #83
yg17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notjustjay View Post
OK, OK, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

I don't work with business/finance/banking software. I didn't realize that apparently a lot of it relies on Java applets that run in your browser.

I still think that's a dumb and vulnerable approach, but I understand that it's frustrating that you can't get work done as a result.

So, business environments aside, there is no real reason for your average Joe to need Java applets when browsing the web on a day-to-day basis, and for security reasons, they should leave it off.
My credit union's two-factor authentication requires Java to log in to online banking. It's not the best system, but I'm not about to leave my CU that I really like over a Java requirement.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:46 AM   #84
sseaton1971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
After reading this thread and reviewing my error messages, I am wondering if the change that bothers me is on the server side. It is a standalone Java app that logs into a server to provide very extensive financial data.

On 1-11-13 it suddenly choked on my Java version. It is not upgradable at all.

Rocketman
That could be... just as frustrating, though!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:49 AM   #85
SmileyBlast!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheRave View Post
Have you been reading the other posts? Part of our frustration is that Apple has not communicated what they did. Protecting computers is OK, but they need to tell us what they did and give those of us rely on it (yes, some of us who work for banks, etc have to have it) a way to continue to use it if despite the risk. My company is not going to hack me. I shouldn't have to go to a rumor site to find out why my remote access doesn't work.
Your Banks IT department should be aware and should have notified you.

You would also think that a Bank is particularly security conscious and would provide you with a remote access solution that did not rely on Java.

The exploit is serious.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:50 AM   #86
sseaton1971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonynair View Post
They are also blocking Apple Java 1.6! Don't know where XProtect.meta.plist screenshot is from, but that is not what Apple pushed out this morning.

Here's what it really is!

Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
	<key>JavaWebComponentVersionMinimum</key>
	<string>1.6.0_37-b06-435</string>
	<key>LastModification</key>
	<string>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 04:41:14 GMT</string>
	<key>PlugInBlacklist</key>
	<dict>
		<key>10</key>
		<dict>
			<key>com.macromedia.Flash Player.plugin</key>
			<dict>
				<key>MinimumPlugInBundleVersion</key>
				<string>11.3.300.271</string>
			</dict>
			<key>com.oracle.java.JavaAppletPlugin</key>
			<dict>
				<key>MinimumPlugInBundleVersion</key>
				<string>1.7.11.22</string>
			</dict>
		</dict>
	</dict>
	<key>Version</key>
	<integer>2028</integer>
</dict>
</plist>
To re-enable Apple Java 1.6:

Code:
sudo /usr/libexec/PlistBuddy -c "Delete :JavaWebComponentVersionMinimum" /System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Resources/XProtect.meta.plist
or

Code:
sudo defaults write /System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Resources/XProtect.meta.plist JavaWebComponentVersionMinimum \"1.6.0_37-b06-434\"
To re-enable Oracle Java 1.7u11 edit the "/System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Resources/XProtect.meta.plist" using vi in Terminal and change:

Code:
<string>1.7.11.22</string>
to:
Code:
<string>1.7.11.19</string>
I posted the block on Twitter when I noticed it this morning.
https://twitter.com/sonynair/status/296935103383347201

Hope that helps someone!
This will work until the next Xprotect update. I have a logout script on some of our laptops that removes the keys for both Java and Flash. So, when a user can't use one of them (because of an Xprotect update), the user simply logs out and back in. This isn't always a safe and practical solution for all users, though.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:52 AM   #87
Thunderhawks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serelus View Post
You should ask for protection? It's called Prevention. Do you ask to police to protect you when you're being robbed or beaten? No they just do because it's their goddamn job. What kind of dumb logic is this.
Simple logic that you don't want to follow maybe?

The police "as prevention" may say do not go down that dark alley in this neighborhood, you may be robbed.

You can then decide if you go or not. You may want to go there , because your stuff is in a shed down there and you have not had any incidents.

The police will not block the access to that dark alley, so you can't go down there and get your stuff.

A pop up saying:

WARNING using JAVA is insecure to use or so

with an

I understand the risks (not that people do) continue

or

Cancel

This notification can be turned off in the preferences file.

Nobody here says that we do not appreciate actions by Apple to make our user experiences as safe as possible.

But, when somebody switches something off in my computer, I'd like to know.

Al Franken will get on this very shortly and the government will get involved.
Not necessarily a good thing, just wait and see:-)
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:57 AM   #88
sseaton1971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
Exactly None.
Apple should NOT BE BLOCKING HTTPS web sites that use Java Plugins.
Especially as Java 7 now has Java FX, with better Table handling and Charts.
It looks like Apple Envy, attempt to Force People to HTML5,
vs. a superior Technology: Java 7.
Since Java is not installed by default on the latest version of OS X, I don't think Apple should be blocking it at all. If a user wants to use Java, he or she should be able to do so. If a user wants to be protected, perhaps he or she can install some sort of malware app that also checks for possible Java exploits. I can see why Apple would use Xprotect for their own in-house version of Java, but this is not their baby anymore.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderhawks View Post
Simple logic that you don't want to follow maybe?

The police "as prevention" may say do not go down that dark alley in this neighborhood, you may be robbed.

You can then decide if you go or not. You may want to go there , because your stuff is in a shed down there and you have not had any incidents.

The police will not block the access to that dark alley, so you can't go down there and get your stuff.

A pop up saying:

WARNING using JAVA is insecure to use or so

with an

I understand the risks (not that people do) continue

or

Cancel

This notification can be turned off in the preferences file.

Nobody here says that we do not appreciate actions by Apple to make our user experiences as safe as possible.

But, when somebody switches something off in my computer, I'd like to know.

Al Franken will get on this very shortly and the government will get involved.
Not necessarily a good thing, just wait and see:-)
Thank you... I agree wholeheartedly! I don't need Apple babysitting me. I hope this all gets resolved very soon.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:57 AM   #89
ConCat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by till213 View Post
In business environments...



... you (your admin) should really know how to enable it again, after Apple has blocked it! Otherwise you really don't need it...

Given the fact that Mac computers are probably used by a majority of home users what Apple does is good practise here. All other people - including Power Users(tm) - know anyway how to circumvent Apple's settings.
Certainly it's easy to fix the issue. I could do it easily. The point is, they shouldn't be disabling things in a person's computer without their consent. It's downright intrusive! If they want to force people to upgrade to the newest version because of a security issue I can understand it, but there isn't even a newer version out yet! They have no business stranding users who use the Java plugin but aren't computer-savvy enough to figure out how to enable it again. It's extremely un-apple to be quite frank.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:05 PM   #90
sseaton1971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by till213 View Post
In business environments...



... you (your admin) should really know how to enable it again, after Apple has blocked it! Otherwise you really don't need it...

Given the fact that Mac computers are probably used by a majority of home users what Apple does is good practise here. All other people - including Power Users(tm) - know anyway how to circumvent Apple's settings.
Macs are used by a lot of users in schools, too. I have plenty of knowledge about how to fix this problem, but it becomes a major pain in the ass when I get blindsided by a bunch of students and staff complaining that their wordle.net projects aren't working anymore! It is hard to fix hundreds of computers immediately. Apple could at least give us a freakin' heads up!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:08 PM   #91
bbeagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
Exactly None.
Apple should NOT BE BLOCKING HTTPS web sites that use Java Plugins.
Especially as Java 7 now has Java FX, with better Table handling and Charts.
It looks like Apple Envy, attempt to Force People to HTML5,
vs. a superior Technology: Java 7.
How does HTTPS have anything to do with Java Applets?

If a bank uses a java applet, the applet is not necessarily insecure just because it's java. Only a PROGRAMMER who is developing the CODE to write the java applet can make a particular java applet 'rogue' to take over your Mac. If you trust a company, say, Bank Of America, then there is no reason to think the java applet would be 'rogue'.

Conversely, I could create a dummy web site, use HTTPS, and write a 'rogue' java applet which takes over your machine.

I'm a developer, and I laugh at your comment that Java 7 is better than HTML5. Not for the web. HTML5 is far superior. For back-end development, Java is the way to go though.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:11 PM   #92
jk1002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sseaton1971 View Post
This will work until the next Xprotect update. I have a logout script on some of our laptops that removes the keys for both Java and Flash. So, when a user can't use one of them (because of an Xprotect update), the user simply logs out and back in. This isn't always a safe and practical solution for all users, though.
You an disable the Xprotect auto updates under system preferences - security - general - advanced - untick automatically update safe download list
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:16 PM   #93
topmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spazzcat View Post
JavaScript does not equal Java. They have similar names, but they are not even kinda like each other....
Doh! My lack of developer skills just showed.....

Thanks.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serelus View Post
You're clearly not a developer, there's a difference between a Java Based - plugin and JavaScript, they are 2 different languages, thus not the same thing.



JavaScript is too basic to block out in it's entirety as too much of the web works on JavaScript. A Java plugin on the other hand is alot less common and isn't required as much as Javascript nor is it as easily exploitable by another end-user. As the JRE(runtime) can give external users complete remote control, where with Javascript this is technically possible but alot harder to achieve.

Besides security is security, leaving any of them is irresponsible and leaving it there is not an excuse nor is it in anyway professional.
You are absolutely right! After reading your comment, I actually spent time researching this. I have confused the two for years, and never understood why I needed both Java and JavaScript. Boy, do I feel stupid!

Anyway- thanks for keeping me honest!

So is JavaScript OK to enable by default?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:16 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notjustjay View Post
I've had Java disabled in my browser for the last several years, and I don't miss it at all. I think in all that time I have re-enabled it maybe once because there was an applet I actually wanted to run.

Just leave it turned off.
I'm glad that works for you but why would you assume your situation should be applicable to everyone else?

The problem is that a lot of business users (including me) are occasionally forced to use browser-based programs that rely on Java to get their work done. When Apple blocks things like this without notice, it becomes a serious impediment to getting work done. Just disabling something out of the blue can cause serious headaches for some users and doing so without issuing any notice or way to undo it is just a bad and annoying idea.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:25 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
Flash, Java, what's next? Internet access to Apple approved sites only?
Surely you mean the "Innovative way to deal with unapproved content in Safari"?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:28 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConCat View Post
Some people actually need it Java) in certain business environments. Apple really should quit doing this, and I mean now. If we want it disabled, we can disable it ourselves. How hard would it be to push the update to computers after Oracle updates Java with the security patch, not before?
Like our government, Apple feels that it's their job to protect us from ourselves. It's unfortunately needed in too many cases.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:38 PM   #97
RayK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonynair View Post
They are also blocking Apple Java 1.6! Don't know where XProtect.meta.plist screenshot is from, but that is not what Apple pushed out this morning.

Here's what it really is!

Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
	<key>JavaWebComponentVersionMinimum</key>
	<string>1.6.0_37-b06-435</string>
	<key>LastModification</key>
	<string>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 04:41:14 GMT</string>
	<key>PlugInBlacklist</key>
	<dict>
		<key>10</key>
		<dict>
			<key>com.macromedia.Flash Player.plugin</key>
			<dict>
				<key>MinimumPlugInBundleVersion</key>
				<string>11.3.300.271</string>
			</dict>
			<key>com.oracle.java.JavaAppletPlugin</key>
			<dict>
				<key>MinimumPlugInBundleVersion</key>
				<string>1.7.11.22</string>
			</dict>
		</dict>
	</dict>
	<key>Version</key>
	<integer>2028</integer>
</dict>
</plist>
To re-enable Apple Java 1.6:

Code:
sudo /usr/libexec/PlistBuddy -c "Delete :JavaWebComponentVersionMinimum" /System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Resources/XProtect.meta.plist
or

Code:
sudo defaults write /System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Resources/XProtect.meta.plist JavaWebComponentVersionMinimum \"1.6.0_37-b06-434\"
To re-enable Oracle Java 1.7u11 edit the "/System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Resources/XProtect.meta.plist" using vi in Terminal and change:

Code:
<string>1.7.11.22</string>
to:
Code:
<string>1.7.11.19</string>
I posted the block on Twitter when I noticed it this morning.
https://twitter.com/sonynair/status/296935103383347201

Hope that helps someone!
Have you found a way to disable XProtect (Automatically update safe downloads list) through command line means? I cannot seem to find what plist this is modifying. This has been driving me nuts for weeks.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by sseaton1971 View Post
This will work until the next Xprotect update. I have a logout script on some of our laptops that removes the keys for both Java and Flash. So, when a user can't use one of them (because of an Xprotect update), the user simply logs out and back in. This isn't always a safe and practical solution for all users, though.
Why not have it update on login then just remove the lines? That sounds like the best method to me.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:39 PM   #98
jonatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyBlast! View Post
So Apple is actively trying to stop your computer from being exploited by hackers and you think that is unacceptable?

What would you say if they did nothing and your machine got hacked?
I think you're missing the point and being very naive. I have no problem with Apple securing system at all. Its great they are proactively making updates. However to force this on people with no explanation is plain unnacceptable. I spent a long time trying to work out what was wrong with no error or guidance from Apple.

A lot of people use business systems that rely on Java. Software companies cannot simply turn around compatible updates at the drop of a hat. We are going to have to use a brand new version of java that is unsupported for using our finance system.

The choice here is that if Apple continues to do this then we will be moving away from the mac platform from for a number of our users as we cannot afford to have obstacles such as this in our way.

I'm not asking them to do nothing just behave in a controlled and mature way.

At the very least all they had to do was say we're going to disable this in X days and I would have been able to come up with a workaround. Instead I have had an entire department lose a days work.

Whats even more frustrating is Im going to have to disable the safe downloads completely for all of our users which means they are going to miss out on future updates to this list. Ultimately making us less secure. Great.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:42 PM   #99
york2600
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It's really annoying to have it blocked when you use Citrix load balancers. The entire UI for the load balancers is one giant (and awful) applet. Without it I can't really do my job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notjustjay View Post
I've had Java disabled in my browser for the last several years, and I don't miss it at all. I think in all that time I have re-enabled it maybe once because there was an applet I actually wanted to run.

Just leave it turned off.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:43 PM   #100
Tech198
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wow... twice in one month....

(What are the odds of that happening)

If Apple's is constantly blocking the web plugin as quickly as Oracle patches it, then something is seriously wrong.

Maybe its time for Oracle to do better in this department. I always thought Adobe was number 1 on the list here.....

Obviously I was wrong, but its probably a close 2nd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHankwitz View Post
Like our government, Apple feels that it's their job to protect us from ourselves. It's unfortunately needed in too many cases.
Thanks, but no thanks. I don't need help .... I protect my own stuff.. Java is disabled on my machine anyway, and i only use it when needed, then disable it afterwards.

Unfortunately, i feel for those that must use it..
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