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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:11 PM   #301
manu chao
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Originally Posted by milo View Post
Yes, but that would mean June would be the earliest we'd see an update, not that there's an update coming by June. If that's what Apple is waiting for, it still might take them months longer to actually ship.
It might but Apple often has released some updated products right after Intel released new processors. Last year the MBA was updated pretty close the Sandy Bridge launch. The MBPs came later and the iMac even further behind.

I am not betting on it but it is certainly possible.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:11 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by SmileyBlast! View Post
Yikes! It's not easy to run a hardware company is it?
It's not easy to run any company with all the unreasonable government regulations. I wonder how many reports there have been for people being injured by a Mac Pro cooling fan. Compare this to the over 8,000 reported laserations in the USA alone each year while using vegetable slicers. Yet I don't see slicers being removed from the market.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:16 PM   #303
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:17 PM   #304
manu chao
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Unless Apple is contempting switching Xeon E3 ( and their associated 4 x86 core cap and 20 PCI-e lane limitations) then there are no "June" offerings.

Haswell Xeon E5 (-EP suffixed ) class offerings aren't going to arrive before June 2014 let alone June 2013.
Yeah, but since Apple has only promised to release something that will appeal to the current Mac Pro users, they might change things here.

Quote:
But then again it isn't even required. In the current Mac Pro if you have two interchangable graphics cards they aren't "integrated" (SLI/Crossfire) either. That hasn't dramatically impeded the Mac Pro. There is zero reason that needs to change with Thunderbolt's embedded GPU in a Mac Pro redesign. The iMac has zero problems weaving its discrete GPU into Thunderbolt. Neither would a Mac Pro.
Well, how could you have all mDPs ports coming out of third-party graphic cards have TB integrated if they fit into one PCI slot? Right now TB requires that the output of the graphic card is weaved together with the TB signal. And that signal is coming from a separate PCI 'slot'. Since Mac Pro graphic cards are built to have their ports directly facing outwards, this would require the graphic card to plug into two PCI slots and integrate the TB weaving into the graphic card housing.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:18 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
Yeah, but since Apple has only promised to release something that will appeal to the current Mac Pro users, they might change things here.
I really can't see them using EN. This would present a far greater performance overlap with imac hardware. It doesn't seem like a typical Apple move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post

It wold be far better for the Mac Pro to do a Jan-March 2013 Sandy Bridge followed by a Jan-March 2014 Ivy Bridge followed by a Jan-March 2015 Haswell than trying to goose Intel's schedule. The Xeon E5 updates are not on a 12 month cycle. Intel has them on something more like a 16-20 month update cycle. Apple needs to find their own recync that makes sense.
I wasn't aware of some of the details you mentioned regarding the prior incomplete lineup being a fluke. Late Sandy Bridge would seem to make sense considering the disparity between intel's official launch dates and oem shipping dates on workstations.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:21 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by MacBoobsPro View Post
The sooner the UK gets the hell out of the EU the better.
And of course you fully considered the origin, purpose and requirements of the relevant EU regulations before you made that point, right?

There will always be some form of market regulation in every Western country including the UK, especially for electronic products. Entrusting industry bodies and organisations with the maintenance of such standards is quite normal, because the technology advances quicker than any legislative body could act. The EU regulation probably does not even mention the specifics of the standard described here at all.

Even if the UK would leave the EU, that doesn't mean it won't have to be concerned with any of these regulations anymore. I doubt that the UK would leave the internal market entirely, it's economic suicide.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:22 PM   #307
manu chao
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Originally Posted by JHankwitz View Post
It's not easy to run any company with all the unreasonable government regulations. I wonder how many reports there have been for people being injured by a Mac Pro cooling fan. Compare this to the over 8,000 reported laserations in the USA alone each year while using vegetable slicers. Yet I don't see slicers being removed from the market.
If you can make a product safer by fairly cheap and simple means, what is wrong with that? If you can change a battery such that the risk of it catching fire is reduced, is that not a good thing? Just because the risk is fairly low, does not mean that if it is possible to reduce it further by simple means, this is not worth it.

And it is not that this regulation caught them by surprise, they knew for years that they would have to change it.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:24 PM   #308
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At issue are the large fans within the Mac Pro. Since they are unprotected, it would be possible to touch the fan blades.
Are you EU folks that inept!?!?

Attention everyone in the UK: DO NOT stick your fingers into moving fan blades. It will hurt!

P.S. God save the Queen and all that other crap.

Cheers.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:28 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Krazy Bill View Post
Are you EU folks that inept!?!?
Ironically, this organisation is actually based in the US. The EU only implements and enforces their standards.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:33 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by MacBoobsPro View Post
Isnt there a giant freakin side panel you have to take off, then a plastic interior panel to remove before you even get near a fan?

The sooner the UK gets the hell out of the EU the better. There are some compete ****ing idiots in this world.
Yes. And then you have to physically slide the fan motor out of its position to then expose the blades. This is what happens when regulators have nothing to do. Perhaps Tim Cook can talk to Dyson and get them to make a mini version of their Air Multiplier. No blades there. The world is turning into an Idiocracy. Look up the movie, it where we're heading. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:39 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by MacBoobsPro View Post
Isnt there a giant freakin side panel you have to take off, then a plastic interior panel to remove before you even get near a fan?

The sooner the UK gets the hell out of the EU the better. There are some compete ****ing idiots in this world.
There is a side panel but no plastic interior panel.
At least in the 2010 Mac Pro . Just the side panel then simply pull out the front fan assembly.

The earlier models of the Mac Pro had that plastic interior panel.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:44 PM   #312
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The world is F%#ked

Stupid rules like this halt business without reason, while kids with guns kill people in the US, and that's ok? Really people???!!!!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:46 PM   #313
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I think the Mac Pro collective needs to storm 1 infinite loop and demand our new Mac pro in both the US and EU countries.

What say yee. Who's in?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:56 PM   #314
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I think the Mac Pro collective needs to storm 1 infinite loop and demand our new Mac pro in both the US and EU countries.

What say yee. Who's in?
My torch and pitchfork are in the shop getting cleaned after my last protest.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:58 PM   #315
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:08 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
Yeah, but since Apple has only promised to release something that will appeal to the current Mac Pro users, they might change things here.
Cooks' vague comment was cleaned up by Apple PR after folks started mutating into wild goofy stuff that tracked into other products.

" ... Apple PR has reached out and clarified that only the Mac Pro is expected to be next updated in 2013. ... "
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/12/...oming-in-2013/

It is really that simple folks. Folks really don't need keep pulling out of context subquotes out of Cooks emails messages. At this point, that activity is is largely just FUD.




Quote:
Well, how could you have all mDPs ports coming out of third-party graphic cards have TB integrated if they fit into one PCI slot?
Simply you don't. The output from multiple cards now isn't co-mixed. What is the point of mixing it. It is inventing a problem where one doesn't even exist. [ Sort of like adding PCI-e expansion to a box that already has PCI-e expansion but even more unmotivated. ]

Folks keep trying to find a solution to a problem that doesnt' exist.

The embedded GPUs output goes into Thunderbolt. The 3rd partty graphics cards' output goes out the same sockets it goes out now. Nobody has major problems hooking 3rd party PCI-e cards video outputs to monitors now.

The extremely small corner case are folks trying to send video output over relatively very long distances. In that extremely narrow niche fiber Thunderbolt has some advantages. In a normal desktop connection configuration it doesn't. HDMI , plain DisplayPort, and/or DVI work just fine.


Quote:
Right now TB requires that the output of the graphic card is weaved together with the TB signal.
Not. PCI-e data stream and Display Port data streams are encoded into TB data streams. Those are decoded back into their respective encodings when they arrive at where they are suppose to go.




Quote:
Since Mac Pro graphic cards are built to have their ports directly facing outwards, this would require the graphic card to plug into two PCI slots and integrate the TB weaving into the graphic card housing.
Largely a completly utter waste of time and effort. If want to hook up two montiors to a current Mac Pro's video card. Two cables. Thunderbolt can do no better. Certainly can't do better with more affordable cables.

All these gyrations to get the video into Thunderbolt do what? Primarily they only increase the number of cables (and/or proprietary connections) and likely significantly drive up the costs.

Soldering a GPU to the motherboard solves the "TB needs 1 or 2 DisplayPort output streams" problem in a cost effective and straightforward way. It is non-removable but nothing says that all the parts in a Mac Pro have to be removable. That is the huge disconnect. People invent that constraint but it doesn't necessarily exist.

There can still be removable components: RAM DIMMs , PCI-e cards , etc. In that respect, it would still very much still be a Mac Pro in the same way as it is now. There is also nothing particularly special about the Mac Pro only having one GPU in the default configs. The default configs for the iMac , MacPro 15" all have two. The Mac Pro could just join those ranks.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:08 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by JAT View Post
My dictionary does list both what I said and what you said, so I'm not going to say you are wrong. You may want to consider reciprocation. I should add, it does NOT say "chiefly responsible for it's success", that is the definition of popularity, or perhaps "in vogue". I don't understand why people try to change words, just pick the correct word.

The naval metaphor is simply that. The term has been adapted for use about consumer products. That's how etymology works.
In consumer products, it usually refers to the best selling or the product most identified with the maker. The Mac Pro is not very well known outside the professional community, and it is actually the least important in sales figures.

That, in my view, would disqualify it as a "flagship product". Being the most expensive, is the only thing you can claim for it. Microsoft Office is the flagship product of Microsoft. It's hardly the most expensive, but it is the most known and used product they make.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:23 PM   #318
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Those old fashioned GE metal bladed room fans looked dangerous, but computer fans are wimpy.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:24 PM   #319
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:39 PM   #320
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EU tariffs are the reason our DSLR's cannot shoot long videos in HD, Limited to under 30 minutes
"Two more reasons we should leave the EU" David Cameron. leader of the Conservative party.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:41 PM   #321
manu chao
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
It is really that simple folks. Folks really don't need keep pulling out of context subquotes out of Cooks emails messages. At this point, that activity is is largely just FUD.
There are enough reasonable people who disagree with your interpretation. The clarification by Apple PR was only to make it clear that the iMacs would be updated in 2012 and not in 2013. They did not say what shape or form the update to the Mac Pro would have.






Quote:
The embedded GPUs output goes into Thunderbolt. The 3rd partty graphics cards' output goes out the same sockets it goes out now. Nobody has major problems hooking 3rd party PCI-e cards video outputs to monitors now.
But does daisy-chaining of displays work with DVI, HDMI or DP? It only does with DP and I have not seen it implemented very often.


Quote:
Not. PCI-e data stream and Display Port data streams are encoded into TB data streams. Those are decoded back into their respective encodings when they arrive at where they are suppose to go.
You know quite well that is exactly what I said. I just used the term 'TB' for the encapsulating of PCI in the TB data signal.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:41 PM   #322
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Oh god! What am I going to use to grate my cheese now?
Brillo pads (wire wool)...Though mind your fillings
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:41 PM   #323
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At issue are the large fans within the Mac Pro. Since they are unprotected, it would be possible to touch the fan blades.
I'm with Apple on this one.

This is not an issue. You can't touch the fan blades in a Mac Pro under normal operation in any circumstances.

Only an idiot would open a live computer and stick their fingers into a moving fan. So, in reality, the idiots have apparently ruined it for everyone in the EU. Apparently the EU's regulatory body isn't as infallible as everyone thought.

The really funny part is that the Mac Pro fans spin slower then every other 120mm fan out there- they spin so slow, in fact (~600RPM) that you can see the rotor axle turning with your own eyes. If you stuck your finger in there, it might make you flinch, but it's not going to break skin.

Sticking your finger inside a large 48-core server cooling turbine running at 4000RPM, now that would do some damage (and you might even lose that finger). The Mac Pro, however, poses no threats to extraneously placed digits.

I wonder how long the EU lasts before they back down on this absurd requirement due to complaints from the consumers. In any case, Apple is correct to simply yank the entire line. It's not their problem. I have never ever heard of someone being sent to the hospital or even complaining about a Mac Pro eating fingers.

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:51 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by popelife View Post
For the first time, I'm genuinely starting to worry.

I work in pro audio and *really* need a new Mac Pro, because my aging 1st generation quad-core no longer has the horsepower required to run modern audio plugins the way I need to.

I would be rushing to the Apple Store tomorrow, debit card in hand, if all Apple did was release exactly the same Mac Pro as they have now, but with up-to-date processor architecture and a couple of Thunderbolt connectors.

I'm all for a redesign, but only as long as Apple doesn't do one of those redesigns that entails deleting a bunch of features it thinks people no longer need. Because I'm people, and I do!

I need a minimum of three PCIe slots for Pro Tools HD, UAD2 DSP, RME MADI interfaces, etc.
I need Firewire 800. Several expensive external devices I depend on use Firewire only.
I need that built-in optical TOS-link audio output (even though I have very expensive external interfaces as well)
I need to be able to run three monitors simultaneously.
I need lots of fast, cheap, internal storage.

I realise that's a lot of "I need, I need..." But as far as my work is concerned, it really is all about me. I know more about what I need to do my job than Apple do. Apple could of course ask me...

And if anyone suggests that you can do all your expansion externally these days - even if all these devices were available as external Thunderbolt devices, which they're not - a smaller computer with half a dozen extra boxes and their power supplies all hanging off the Thunderbolt bus is in no way a more convenient or elegant solution than housing them inside the computer. My studio is enough of a tangled mess already thank you very much.


I've been an Mac owner and user since the late eighties. I still have the IIcx that I spent my life savings on in 1988 in the loft. If this European ban does turn out to be a subtle excuse for cancelling the Mac Pro line later on, then it's the end of a long happy road for me and Apple. I'm not confident that I can reliably do everything I do now on a Windows system. Plus I detest Windows. I only use Windows if someone holds a metaphorical gun to my head. I'd basically be sitting there in my studio all day, mixing with one hand and metaphorically blowing my own brains out with the other.

I hope Apple remember that it was the loyalty of professional creative arts users kept them in business thru all those difficult years. Some loyalty in return would be nice. After all, it's not as if they sell Mac Pros at a loss...
I can relate to a lot of this.
I'm not in the audio world, however I am in photo and a little in video.

Oh god how I miss the awesomeness of adding my own HDDs in a tower from the PC days...
I have three external USB2 drives (yes, 2.0, because 3.0 was too exclusive even for Apple back in late 2011 ) so I'm using a cluster**** of mixing internal storage for some working on and then letting it copy over to the storage drives.
I'm telling you, I hate USB2.0 with a passion now and Thunderbolt is still pretty much ridiculously useless without enclosures on the market. RAIDs are nice and dandy, but right now I'm not ready to invest into one so it's all **** for me on my end.

3.4GHz
4 cores - 8 threads
32GB RAM
6970M 2GB VRAM, and here we're starting to see the awesomeness slow down
SSD options back then didn't suffice and were too expensive to be justified
USB2
Thunderbolt ports that are just sitting there doing nothing and looking silly whilst constantly reminding me of their complete lack of usefulness. They will be useful by the time I have my next Mac, HAH!

Glassed Silver:mac
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:55 PM   #325
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like seriously. What kind of risk do the fans portray? Usually the Mac Pro is closed so its not like you can accidentally get your fingers in it. Also if you are working on the insides of the Mac Pro it will be turned off. Cant get your fingers chopped off by fans which aren't spinning can ya.

Does this mean desktop tower computers are not allowed to be sold anymore? I have yet to come across a tower that has closed off fans. So all towers would have be changed to meet these regulations or what?
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