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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:17 PM   #26
Peace
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Originally Posted by Thunderhawks View Post
Since people use "Cloud" as if it refers to only offsite storage that is what it is to them. The rest of your definition is unimportant to them.

They are just interested in using it.

Dropbox is easy to use and provides files on ones desktop, i.e. there is a comfort level in not having to trust (yet) that the "cloud" vanishes with all "my" information.
I don't use dropbox so correct me if i'm wrong. Isn't dropbox an application with it's own dedicated window ? In other words not part of the native Finder.

Now Imagine a dropbox concept that is integrated into the Finder window.

This is it.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:20 PM   #27
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After watching Maya's video

Sounds like an ideal solution for taking iCloud from personal usage into becoming more of a collaborative business level tool.

The Axes paradigm can be used in many areas but it looks a bit confusing in the picture above. I expect that Apple's usage will contain significant polish and emphasize easy sharing and collaboration through iCloud.

iWork is a nice candidate. See as how Apple fast tracked Siri would could see this hit in 10.9.

Love the idea of taking Spotlight style searching and extending that right into the Cloud and across client devices.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:21 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Goldmansachs View Post
How many friggin times does the narrator say 'documents'?
Just a few more times.... A few more times....
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post
Good god, what a truly terrible marketing video. I tuned out within about 20 seconds. It has all the typical annoying marketing video standbys (upbeat jazz, slick animation, buzzwords galore, etc.) but never once shows the freakin product in use. "IAmOrganized connects with the world and allows for easy storage, meaningful display and instant network creation." GAG! That means nothing--NOTHING--just empty marketing blather.
I only pressed play on the video after your comment. I needed some phasing out since I quit on drugs a few months ago.

in other news, the first background used seems eerily close to apple's cross-hatch background used in notification centre
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:24 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
I run across the same thing at work all the time on my Dell laptop.....

"Did I save that spreadsheet in 'folder X' or 'folder y'".

iCloud has always worked well for me for what I need it do - automatically save my pictures, settings and a 'snapshot' if you will of my phone (apps, arrangement, etc....), stream my music from, share photos through.....

PDF's are one thing, given I have a number of PDF apps, though all it requires is some forward thinking - i.e. save them all in one place (for me its iBooks, unless I want to annotate in an app like NoteTaker HD - but most documents, spreadsheets and powerpoints are saved in pages, numbers and keynote.....not hard to remember.
Yeah, but you're the one making Folder X and Folder Y. If Folder X is "PDFs and Word Docs", then that's where you would save PDFs. You can have two or more apps creating the same type of files - which is what is annoying; you have to open up the app, wait for it to load, then see if it contains the document you're looking for.

I don't know about you, but if you had to wait 2 minutes to load Photoshop just to view a Photoshop document, I would switch operating systems. In OS X, I can just go to my "Pictures" folder and find my document and email it.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by FSMBP View Post
Apple already solved this by having Smart Folders and Aliases. For example, if I have Garageband file saved in my "Music" Folder, it would show up in my smart "Projects" Folder (which I have show all the Garageband and iMovie files).

Or, if I have a frequently used MP3 in my "Music" folder that I use in my movies, I would create an alias for it in my iMovie folder.
No, that doesn't completely solve the problem.

Delete the original file, and the alias remains. If you have 50 aliases, you have lots of unnecessary work to do. You wouldn't even know where they are or how many of them to delete.

I don't want to manually create a smart folder for each view I might want to get. It'd be ridiculous how many you'd have to create and delete.

Labels make the above automatic and effortless, which is absolutely ESSENTIAL. You don't want a solution that adds effort, even just a tiny bit, since it all adds up.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:31 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Icaras View Post
30 years, yet some people still cannot grasp the concept of it or use it effectively. Ever see a person with a desktop full of icons? Great user-run file management there. I see this ALL the time at my office. Eventually for these people, it's going to be hell to find that file they were looking for. That's what I'm talking about.

Steve Jobs explained in either a keynote or one of the All Things Digital conferences: the learning curve for the average user goes way up once they hit the file system. And that's why Apple never implemented a user-run, traditional desktop file management system in iOS, and it's the right direction for iCloud still.

And I disagree that app driven file systems are more cumbersome. It's not in my opinion. A general user is going to remember more than he/she typed up that Pages document in Pages. The user is going to remember that he/she created that Garageband track in Garageband, etc. No need to drill down hierarchies of folders to find what you need.

But it isn't like Drop box is going away for power users that love to hang around forums and talk about this stuff. The choice is still there. But I strongly believe Apple was smart to simplify cloud services for the mass market. I doubt it would have reached this number of penetration if iCloud was just another Drop Box.
When you have two different apps making the same document, you're telling me it is easier to have the user open up both apps just to find the document? Wouldn't a "smart folder" containing like documents be easier?

Clearly files/folders metaphor works or why does Apple include it in Pages? At some point, things need organized.

If you have a project that includes Pages documents and Excel documents, there is no way to overview your project with an app-based solution.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by shurcooL View Post
No, that doesn't completely solve the problem.

Delete the original file, and the alias remains. If you have 50 aliases, you have lots of unnecessary work to do. You wouldn't even know where they are or how many of them to delete.

I don't want to manually create a smart folder for each view I might want to get. It'd be ridiculous how many you'd have to create and delete.

Labels make the above automatic and effortless, which is absolutely ESSENTIAL. You don't want a solution that adds effort, even just a tiny bit, since it all adds up.
How much harder is it to add a filter in Finder than manually adding a label to each file (and having to remember to do so every time on every file)?

Legit question as if there is a truly easier way, I'd rather have that.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by FSMBP View Post
When you have two different apps making the same document, you're telling me it is easier to have the user open up both apps just to find the document? Wouldn't a "smart folder" containing like documents be easier?

Clearly files/folders metaphor works or why does Apple include it in Pages? At some point, things need organized.

If you have a project that includes Pages documents and Excel documents, there is no way to overview your project with an app-based solution.
Ok, I see what you're saying. Yea, I've noticed some confusing overlaps arising as iOS and some of the apps have progressed. On occasion I have been confused about the whereabouts of a PDF document that I transferred to iCloud. For example, the location of a PDF document can exist in either iBooks, Pages, or Preview, which for the latter, is only available on Mac, which adds even more to that confusion.

For the "big picture" however, I would say Apple's iOS structure plays nicer still for the mass market. But I do agree that these overlaps of particular files that run in more than one app should be improved and addressed somehow in future iOS updates.

I think OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion added a nice feature with the "Arrange by..." in Finder where it breaks down your types of files in a horizontal cover flow format.
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Last edited by Icaras; Jan 31, 2013 at 02:49 PM.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:41 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by FSMBP View Post
Yeah, but you're the one making Folder X and Folder Y. If Folder X is "PDFs and Word Docs", then that's where you would save PDFs. You can have two or more apps creating the same type of files - which is what is annoying; you have to open up the app, wait for it to load, then see if it contains the document you're looking for.

I don't know about you, but if you had to wait 2 minutes to load Photoshop just to view a Photoshop document, I would switch operating systems. In OS X, I can just go to my "Pictures" folder and find my document and email it.
Well I have a "spreadsheets" folder and a "word docs" folder, but sometimes I save spreadsheets and word docs used for specific purposes in other folders as well.....

I understand what you're saying - though I've never had an app on my phone take more than a few seconds to load.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by FSMBP View Post
How much harder is it to add a filter in Finder than manually adding a label to each file (and having to remember to do so every time on every file)?

Legit question as if there is a truly easier way, I'd rather have that.
Labels should not be manually added to each and every file/folder.

Applying "Pictures" label to all .jpg files manually would obviously be quite stupid and more work than just having a View that shows you all .jpg files.

But suppose you have a bunch of photos in a folder. You might want to apply some labels to some of them, like "Photos of Cars", or "Best Photos", or "Group Photos". A given photo might have zero, one, or more labels. And then you can view all the "Best Photos". If you want to delete or edit a photo, there's only one copy to touch.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:10 PM   #37
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They lost me at "You just add tags to all your files and photos"

Been there, stopped doing it for lack of time
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:14 PM   #38
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I really want to know what people are doing that they are forgetting where they save files. I do web editing, graphics, music editing, video editing, and have a ton of text documents at any given time. By simply being half organized I have zero problem pulling up any given document at any given time.

I am not adverse to change, but I really do not see how this is so much better than folders. Must be a lot of people out there who do not understand that their folders do not have to be named: "untitled folder"
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:30 PM   #39
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They lost me at "You just add tags to all your files and photos"

Been there, stopped doing it for lack of time
Just what I thought. Why is everyone so obsessed with telling me how to store and sort my data? Folders and files work perfectly fine for me, locally and remotely.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:36 PM   #40
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Just what I thought. Why is everyone so obsessed with telling me how to store and sort my data? Folders and files work perfectly fine for me, locally and remotely.
Because the world at large tends to struggle with the concept of efficient folder management.

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:59 PM   #41
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dropbox still rules the cloud
Dropbox is a fine a little startup.

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:07 PM   #42
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:15 PM   #43
supercoolmanchu
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Originally Posted by MacAztec View Post
This comment makes me cringe. People use the word "Cloud" as if it refers only to offsite data storage. DropBox offers a sliver of the cloud (data storage).

They by NO MEANS rule the cloud. A "cloud" is defined as on-demand, self service, shared resource, resilient, multi tenant, quickly scaling up or down. I could offer fantastic offsite data storage and be not much different than DropBox.
You mean a "server"?

This "cloud" terminology is merely a metaphor for the general public to explain 'not on your local computer, somewhere on someone else's server'.

But you are correct about Dropbox, they by no means rule the server business... just a relatively well designed consumer-grade, kiddy toy by comparison. But you'll see it championed as the be-all-end-all because they give out a free GB peanuts to all the chimps at the zoo. For example, A3 crushes Dropbox, but you gotta pay for it, a detail not popular with members of the new KKK (Kollectivist Klown Kollective).

iCloud doesn't do everything MobileMe/iTools did. Personally I think for what it does, it does it way better. In addition, unless you're a 6-fingered noob, it's also totally easy to set up and sync for iDevices. I think the most valuable part of Apple's strategy was enabling iCloud to be a primary set-up and sync method for iDevices. If you want to attract new users (which they seem to be pretty good at), helps if you don't have support a ton of legacy platforms and hardware to get your fancy new device happening. That's big shift to try and spearhead, I think you'll see Apple pushing further into the more sophisticated services when they build out more data-center capacity.

Remember to remind whining babies moaning about iCloud, that it takes a local server cluster to make any of their petty feature wishes a reality across all of Apple's sizable user base.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:16 PM   #44
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I just don't want to have to tag my files manually with keywords... I find that so annoying... if they can automatically group files this might be interesting... otherwise... I prefer folders tyvm.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:52 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by needfx View Post
dropbox still rules the cloud
I prefer Dropbox to all others but I do wish they had a way to edit documents similar to Google Docs.

The lack of this feature made me create a free Google account for document and spreadsheet functionality.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Peace View Post
I don't use dropbox so correct me if i'm wrong. Isn't dropbox an application with it's own dedicated window ? In other words not part of the native Finder.

Now Imagine a dropbox concept that is integrated into the Finder window.

This is it.
No it's not, it's just a folder that automatically syncs .. not a stand alone app. Dropbox is "integrated in the finder", because it is just a "smart" folder.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:09 PM   #47
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From a first impression it looks like Final Cut Server in the Cloud

http://www.iamorganized.com/what_is_iao

Maybe Apple has plans to introduce Final Cut Server in the cloud.

First thing that comes to mind is Shotgun Software's Shotgun and Tank

SouthPaw Tactic is another similar tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Small White Car View Post
A lot of this reminds me of what Apple has done in Final Cut X. Yes, FCX is a hot mess for editing video, but as a content manager it's truely remarkable. It's clearly a prototype for where Apple is going with file management. It's much better than the Mac's (and Dropbox's) folder system, iOS's 'no system', or iCloud's 'app-based system.'

All 3 methods have serious drawbacks and FCX seems to be taking the lead in finding a solution. These patents feel like the next step on that journey.

It can't come soon enough.




Ah, good analogy. That's exactly what Final Cut does. It's not getting a lot of attention, but it's Final Cut's one big improvement over the old one. Someone in Apple gets it, hopefully it spreads.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:37 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
I don't use dropbox so correct me if i'm wrong. Isn't dropbox an application with it's own dedicated window ? In other words not part of the native Finder.

Now Imagine a dropbox concept that is integrated into the Finder window.

This is it.

Might want to try using dropbox first before saying something like this!
Dropbox is perfectly integrated into the file system and does not interfere with anything you do.
It is seamless, safe, and easy.
It also works properly, which I cannot say for something like Google Drive.

----------

Is it just me or is that narrator's voice (accent) incredibly unusual, and somehow really irritating?? I don't normally mind accents but that one was horrible.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:59 PM   #49
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Instead, there should be labels or tags, similar to Gmail's labels.
Exactly, tagging is the future, like in Adobe Lightroom. What if your image belongs to 2012, San Francisco, Mom, and red dress at the same time? How do you create such folder structure? Are you going to nest by date first, and then by place, or the other way around? Folders alone are very limiting. Folders should be used for rough grouping, such as Work, Music, Photography, Lifestyle. But at some point you have to start applying tags.

A good example is Webbla, a bookmark manager. It allows you to create folders based on catagories, but within each folder you organize your links by tagging them. For example, I may tag one web link as "Photography, technique, forum, landscape". That's the way you can later find anything quickly.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:09 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rocco83 View Post
I really want to know what people are doing that they are forgetting where they save files. I do web editing, graphics, music editing, video editing, and have a ton of text documents at any given time. By simply being half organized I have zero problem pulling up any given document at any given time.

I am not adverse to change, but I really do not see how this is so much better than folders. Must be a lot of people out there who do not understand that their folders do not have to be named: "untitled folder"
The problem with folders is that a file can only be located within one folder at a time when it actually could need to be associated with multiple different folders. This happens all the time. Do I put this receipt in the "2012 taxes" folder, the "Receipts" folder, or the "Client X" folder?

If you've ever used Gmail, you can see how this would work great with the way iCloud works. I love the way iCloud associates documents with the application that creates it. It makes it really easy to find your files and you save time and frustration by not having to figure out where to store them. The only downside is when you want to view files by project rather than type. It seems that applying tags to iCloud documents so you can view files in other ways would make it the best of both worlds.
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