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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:06 PM   #1
linkgx1
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Windows 8-was Microsoft wrong?

I've been reading Windows 8 lately, and I'm still stuck on 7 (I bought the upgrade, but have yet to use it).

But I did try it a few times and must admit it's innovative, but a little bit confusing.

I noticed the touch interface is MUCH better than using a mouse. But the problem lies in whether or not Microsoft was right to make an OS like they did. I'm still trying to figure it out. I mean, should they have made desktop Windows like 7 and just made "tablet mode" for tablet/hybrid devices?

I noticed that in most stores, the computers are desktops and not a bunch of desktops. So when people see Windows 8, they are not getting the optimal experience.

But, then again, if Microsoft did not make something touch focus, they would continually lose markeshare to Google and Apple.

Does anyone feel the same or have a suggestion on what M$ should have done? Thanks!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:36 PM   #2
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Seriously just use the damm thing and give it time, my brother wich is someone i consider technical challenge love windows 8 and have not been confused by it till these date.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:54 PM   #3
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I was playing with a windows 8 tablet and really liked it. I haven't tried it on a pc with a mouse though, so not sure how that would change the experience. We're they wrong? I don't think so. I think they are for once ahead of Apple in innovation.

I asked in another forum whether people would like OS X to go touch screen, most people said No. Personally, I would love a touch screen OSX. For 80% of what I do, touch screen would be great, it would just be where accuracy is needed like in illustrator or photoshop that a mouse(or pen) would be better suited.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:03 PM   #4
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It does confuse people, but its not that hard to learn if you just take a second and realize its not the same and you will need to learn a few things. I spent about 20 minutes on Skype with my GF's dad explaining how to do certain things, how it works and why there's the new interface.
He went from "This is the worst ever." to "Okay, thats kind of cool". I dont know where he's at now though, but Im kind of interested.

For a friend of mine who uses a Mac. He was like "I just dont get why some things open in Metro or why I cant get things to open on the desktop (Chrome)."

Valid thing to get confused on because it is strange that only the default browser can open in Metro and opening it in different spots opens different versions.

So back to the topic at hand, Im still not sure if Win8 was the right idea. I think that it should be treated as a stepping stone and not the final destination for sure though. Its definitely causing mixed reactions which isn't good, but if it gets cleaned up and they can get people on board with it, it may be very good for them.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:12 PM   #5
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Making an OS a combination of touch and keyboard/pen/mouse/trackpad just doesn't make sense for most applications. Even in cases of photo or graphic manipulation, if you're talking about working on a desk - whether using a laptop or desktop, you're looking at the screen at an angle, but mostly on an upright plane. That's natural, right? You can slightly tilt your head and have your eyes focused on the screen. If you're doing this now, while reading this post, now take your hands from the keyboard and hold both up to the screen.

Heck, even start using your fingers to point and drag across the screen. Maybe pretend to zoom in and manipulate individual pixels as you would while working in Photoshop. Now don't put your hands down, keep working. Gee, isn't that just the most natural behavior you can think of? What? Did you say you ended up pushing the screen back as you worked? Maybe you found yourself constantly moving closer to the screen so your arms weren't so stretched, only to be too close to the screen so you move back again.

It's a bone headed implementation - not unexpected from MS. If you really wanted to make a finger or pen driven computer, you'd replace the keyboard with a full keyboard sized trackpad. Then you can keep your head from bending down and eyes focused ahead while your hands are at their natural position on the horizontal plane in front of you.

I'm guessing this is where things are going to go - the question is who will bring it to fruition first - my bet will not be on MS's side.

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:18 PM   #6
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I really love the tablet experience of Windows 8 on my Nexus 7 (via Splashtop).
Thumb resize. Thumb resize. Thumb resize.

The whole gesture based system works perfectly once you get used to it and metro apps are well suited for touch. My desktop experience on the other hand prefers the traditional Windows 7 way of doing things so for that I bought Start8 to bring back the old start menu and use that pretty much elusively with desktop mode when using keyboard and mouse.

Having access to the tablet side via my Nexus does make me appreciate Windows 8 more than I would of I just used it as a desktop operating system.

I do think Microsoft didn't have much choice but to go on the path it has taken with Win8. I do hope costumers get to experience it on tablets more.

I was very sceptical of Windows 8 initially but a lot of what I disliked has disappeared the more I use it.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:32 PM   #7
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The win 8 interface is not the end of the world. It is certainly does put more eye candy in front of the user at the expense of a visual/intuitive representation of how the operating system basically functions, though.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 04:45 PM   #8
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The mistake MS made was trying to imitate iOS in terms of having a dumbed down OS, but at the same time keeping the desktop OS pretty much unchanged. Instead they should have put all their energy towards making the desktop touch friendly, larger elements, new paradigms for non touch friendly things, more DPI options, etc etc. with the dual nature its very hard to see which direction MS will continue, or if they try to melds the 2.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:15 PM   #9
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I dunno if maybe Microsoft should drop the metro interface and go back to the drawing board. It seems to have too much of a hate it/Love it polarizing effect on people, and it seems more people dont like it than do.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:01 PM   #10
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The biggest problem with W8 is compatibility. And I find that to be rather funny as an OSX user who is constantly hearing crap from friends who use windows. Although I personally don't really get the touchscreen desktop concept, I think W8 is cool and in time it will take off. It hasn't been out long and it needs some time to get all the third party software grooving on it. Sadly my next desktop (probably buying in a month or so) will be a W8 machine, so I'm sure I will find some pros and cons. My lady prefers windows and I still have my MBP so we decided to get either an HP or a Samsung, haven't decided for sure yet.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by b166er View Post
The biggest problem with W8 is compatibility. And I find that to be rather funny as an OSX user who is constantly hearing crap from friends who use windows. Although I personally don't really get the touchscreen desktop concept, I think W8 is cool and in time it will take off. It hasn't been out long and it needs some time to get all the third party software grooving on it. Sadly my next desktop (probably buying in a month or so) will be a W8 machine, so I'm sure I will find some pros and cons. My lady prefers windows and I still have my MBP so we decided to get either an HP or a Samsung, haven't decided for sure yet.
I know one program that isnt compatible with Windows 8, which is a medical program, but I wouldnt say compatibility is the issue at all. Its rather a non-issue actually.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 08:39 AM   #12
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I think people need to experience Windows 8 on a tablet to truly understand how innovative it is.

Here is a screenshot of true multitasking...something the iPad cannot do right now.

I love my IOS device: I have 2 iPads, but I can't help but use the Surface because it is the next step forward when it comes to the tablet OS experience.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 01:57 PM   #13
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The idea, the vision and the direction is very good and the right one, however, the execusion... typical Microsoft, terrible.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 02:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by borka105 View Post
I think people need to experience Windows 8 on a tablet to truly understand how innovative it is.

Here is a screenshot of true multitasking...something the iPad cannot do right now.

I love my IOS device: I have 2 iPads, but I can't help but use the Surface because it is the next step forward when it comes to the tablet OS experience.
Does the Surface lock up frequently with you? I have a ThinkPad Tablet 2 with Windows 8 Pro, and it locks up and blue screens probably a once per day. The reliability reminds me of going back to Windows 9x from the Windows NT kernel. I assume you are running Windows RT, so maybe it doesn't have the same issuers as Windows 8 Pro. So far, I am liking my iPad 2 much better, and the ThinkPad X1 Carbon with Windows 7 for very portable device. I have used Windows since 3.0 and am an MCSE and am not new to Windows by any means, but so far Apple has done a much better job in the tablet arena IMO. Perhaps the Surface Pro is a better device than the ThinkPad Tablet 2... I have many ThinkPads and love them, but this one tablet still has a few bugs. Maybe that's why it was delayed a few times...
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 02:25 PM   #15
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Does the Surface lock up frequently with you? I have a ThinkPad Tablet 2 with Windows 8 Pro, and it locks up and blue screens probably a once per day. The reliability reminds me of going back to Windows 9x from the Windows NT kernel. I assume you are running Windows RT, so maybe it doesn't have the same issuers as Windows 8 Pro. So far, I am liking my iPad 2 much better, and the ThinkPad X1 Carbon with Windows 7 for very portable device. I have used Windows since 3.0 and am an MCSE and am not new to Windows by any means, but so far Apple has done a much better job in the tablet arena IMO. Perhaps the Surface Pro is a better device than the ThinkPad Tablet 2... I have many ThinkPads and love them, but this one tablet still has a few bugs. Maybe that's why it was delayed a few times...
I had a thinkpad tablet 2 and it was rock solid, never locking up on me a single time in the 4 weeks I had it. It did have other issues though, the usb port did not work with unpowered devices and last I heard Lenovo was investigating it. Overall windows drivers are also a bit immature, there are some occasional issues with them but nothing earth shattering.

As a tablet it absolutely trounced the ipad, not even close in competition. Still, windows has a bit to go to optimize their drivers, and they also really need to fix the schizophrenia that is windows 8.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 03:01 PM   #16
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I had a thinkpad tablet 2 and it was rock solid, never locking up on me a single time in the 4 weeks I had it. It did have other issues though, the usb port did not work with unpowered devices and last I heard Lenovo was investigating it. Overall windows drivers are also a bit immature, there are some occasional issues with them but nothing earth shattering.

As a tablet it absolutely trounced the ipad, not even close in competition. Still, windows has a bit to go to optimize their drivers, and they also really need to fix the schizophrenia that is windows 8.
That's really odd... I think Lenovo makes some of the best Windows products on the market, but this little guy so far has not been that great. I am starting to wonder if it may be defective.

When it hangs, it becomes completely non responsive, and will stay that way for probably two or three minutes. Then it will finally blue screen with a power management related error. I have restored it (or "reset my PC" in Windows 8 terms) and also ran all Lenovo System Updates and Windows Updates. Not sure what else to do.

I also tried to install Windows 8 Enterprise from a clean installation, but can't install it from USB because touch does not work during Windows 8 Setup, and when using a USB keyboard with a built-in USB 2.0 hub to connect the flash drive to supply the Windows 8 installation media, it cannot locate the flash drive after Setup starts, although it finds it okay on boot and boots from the drive.

I am going to keep messing with it to see what I can do.

I will say that the build quality is excellent, and I am impressed that the glass screen does not collect fingerprints as bad as I expected.

Also, the ThinkPad bluetooth keyboard works well with the iPad 2, which was a nice surprise!
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 03:32 PM   #17
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That's really odd... I think Lenovo makes some of the best Windows products on the market, but this little guy so far has not been that great. I am starting to wonder if it may be defective.

When it hangs, it becomes completely non responsive, and will stay that way for probably two or three minutes. Then it will finally blue screen with a power management related error. I have restored it (or "reset my PC" in Windows 8 terms) and also ran all Lenovo System Updates and Windows Updates. Not sure what else to do.

I also tried to install Windows 8 Enterprise from a clean installation, but can't install it from USB because touch does not work during Windows 8 Setup, and when using a USB keyboard with a built-in USB 2.0 hub to connect the flash drive to supply the Windows 8 installation media, it cannot locate the flash drive after Setup starts, although it finds it okay on boot and boots from the drive.

I am going to keep messing with it to see what I can do.

I will say that the build quality is excellent, and I am impressed that the glass screen does not collect fingerprints as bad as I expected.

Also, the ThinkPad bluetooth keyboard works well with the iPad 2, which was a nice surprise!
Honestly if you are still in the return period exchange it for another one. I follow others pretty closely on the windows tablet/lenovo forums and while the TPT2 does definitely have it's share of issues I don't see many, if anyone complain about such severe crashes.

I really really loved the thinkpad tablet 2, such an insanely cool little tablet with the wacom digitizer, it was so thin, and to have full windows 8 Pro for 10 hours. I mainly returned mine to buy a surface Pro next week, but I still am considering buying another thinkpad tablet 2 just to have the insane battery life.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 03:35 PM   #18
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I challenged all my family and installed 8 on their laptops. they are not technical users just normal and they all hated it and moved back to 7 or installed some start menu.

I believe lots of desktop/laptop without touch will be disappointed.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 04:04 PM   #19
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Does the Surface lock up frequently with you? I have a ThinkPad Tablet 2 with Windows 8 Pro, and it locks up and blue screens probably a once per day. The reliability reminds me of going back to Windows 9x from the Windows NT kernel. I assume you are running Windows RT, so maybe it doesn't have the same issuers as Windows 8 Pro. So far, I am liking my iPad 2 much better, and the ThinkPad X1 Carbon with Windows 7 for very portable device. I have used Windows since 3.0 and am an MCSE and am not new to Windows by any means, but so far Apple has done a much better job in the tablet arena IMO. Perhaps the Surface Pro is a better device than the ThinkPad Tablet 2... I have many ThinkPads and love them, but this one tablet still has a few bugs. Maybe that's why it was delayed a few times...
Yes, I am suing the Surface RT with Type Cover.

While I have read many negatives on this forum about the RT version, I think it's a great tablet and does what it is designed to do.

I paid a premium for a thin tablet that has excellent battery life. The Surface RT serves as my consumption device (internet, Netflix, music), and for basic notes (office suite). I bought it to replace my iPad 3 and it does just that...

The desktop mode finally allows an ARM Tablet user to manage their apps and files. I think reviewers miss this important feature. Also, being able to open up task manager and know how much memory each running app is taking up is great.

What's taken me the longest to get used to is the 10.6" screen. It's narrower and wider than the iPad.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 04:37 PM   #20
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I challenged all my family and installed 8 on their laptops. they are not technical users just normal and they all hated it and moved back to 7 or installed some start menu.

I believe lots of desktop/laptop without touch will be disappointed.
I find this hard to believe
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 04:46 PM   #21
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I'm not sure I'm a fan of the swipe to the left, swipe to the right, swipe in a circle, swipe up and down, swipe a peace symbol, swipe a picture of Steve Ballmer stuff..

Eventually the swipes get so vague and odd. I wonder if there are swipes that do opposite things between different touch OSes.

It'd be like if you took a desktop program and got rid of half the menus and had to use hotkeys for stuff instead.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 12:51 PM   #22
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I find this hard to believe
Why ? because we are on macrumors ? It was only 4 laptops.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 01:34 PM   #23
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Why ? because we are on macrumors ? It was only 4 laptops.
That you would buy 4 copies of Windows 8 and install them on families computers when they didnt want it.

When you installed it did you show them how to use it?
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 01:46 PM   #24
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That you would buy 4 copies of Windows 8 and install them on families computers when they didnt want it.

When you installed it did you show them how to use it?
I did not buy I gave them evaluation version.
They are using windows since they know computers, the first question of course was where did the start disappear.

All are 18+
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 01:46 PM   #25
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There are some idiosyncracies where it is clear Microsoft wanted so badly to introduce a new paradigm, they stupidly sacrificed usability.

One example is the lack of a startup button. I didn't say start menu, but I see no reason why they couldn't add something, anything, to indicate where to go for the startup screen. Or the charms menu, which have a number of ways to be triggered, some of the inconsistent. It's kind of a chore to do things as simple as shutting down.

For most of us (I imagine MR users are pretty savvy), it's not too hard to figure out what's changed. But imagine the average user (my parents), who already struggle with Windows 7. How the hell are any of them supposed to know how to access these menus?

This will be a future phone conversation for sure...

Me: So go to the bottom left corner for the start screen, where the start button used to be.
Mom: There's no start button anymore.
Me: I know, but just go there and click it, trust me, it'll work.
Mom: But there's nothing there, where do I go?!
Me: To the bottom left corner. Just do it. You can't see it anymore, it's invisible, but it's there, I promise.
Mom: Okay. A screen came up with my apps. How do I get back to my desktop?

I agree wholeheartedly that this is an excellent mobile/touch UI, but pretty useless (or worse, obstructive) on traditional PC. I wish Microsoft implemented this as a sort of software layer that could be enabled or disabled, so they could still have the best of both worlds in a single OS, but many of the annoyances could be avoided on regular computers.
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