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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:29 PM   #51
webbuzz
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Originally Posted by SiPi View Post
That is an interesting question to ask
Are you referring to the United Nations?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:37 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Funny then how come our murder rate per capita is much higher than other similar-cultured western nations (Canada, England, Australia, France, etc)?



You can't grow an AK-47 in a shed behind your house like you can a weed plant.



If that was true than England, Canada, etc would have much higher crime rates and firearm murder rates. But it's exactly the opposite.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...loped-country/



TWENTY TIMES.

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Thats because we HAVE GUNS. Too narrow of a statistic to have meaning,

Places that ban guns, evil people attack with baseball bats, crowbars, etc. evil finds a way.
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The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

And it finds a way when the innocent cant defend themselves.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:05 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
Don't be silly. Every country has crime. On balance the US is an excellent place to live. One has to remember that the US has more than a quarter of a billion people, so while these stories are horrible and upsetting, they are hardly the norm. Many people live their entire lives in the US without ever witnessing a crime or being affected directly by one.

In this regard, I find your comment ironic in that here in the UK there is a show about mass murderers and other violent criminals in Australia....
I know every country has crime, there have been a few drive by shootings in Australia lately (Bikie wars). Its more the mass shootings in schools that scares me, stuff like that does not happen Australia on a regular basis like it seems to in America.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:15 PM   #54
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A shooting in Atlanta. SHOCKING


How in the hell did a middle school kid get a gun?

----------

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Originally Posted by torana355 View Post
I know every country has crime, there have been a few drive by shootings in Australia lately (Bikie wars). Its more the mass shootings in schools that scares me, stuff like that does not happen Australia on a regular basis like it seems to in America.
This wasn't a mass shooting.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:42 PM   #55
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News flash: a country at war uses every means possible to vanquish a foe that started the war without warning, committed atrocities and war crimes, and encouraged its soldiers to perform suicide attacks.
Such nonsense. In the first place, the US invited the attack, please read up on the time period preceding the day that would "live in infamy", before you spew that patriotic blather about how the US was just minding its own business, then pow. After that, WRT to the bombings, learn a new (archaic) word, mokusatsu, which adds an interesting layer of uncertainty/controversy to the events. One might well believe that, at least to some extent, the bombs were used because so much money had gone into the program, they felt justified in (the world) seeing results demonstrated.

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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
Are you referring to the United Nations?
There are not a few interesting aspects to this question. For instance, if the Americans start killing each other off in large numbers, how will that impact the rest of the world? Will American influence wane as its population shrinks, as its social order becomes less stable? Or will increasing violence in the US seek release, spilling over the borders to the rest of the world? A serious concern, as an unstable America could wreak a lot of damage across the globe.

If this just gets significantly worse, it should give the rest of world cause for concern. Mobs of angry Americans, doughy as they may be, are not to be reckoned with, and they have a less than stellar record as far as responding to reason.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:54 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Sydde View Post
There are not a few interesting aspects to this question. For instance, if the Americans start killing each other off in large numbers, how will that impact the rest of the world? Will American influence wane as its population shrinks, as its social order becomes less stable? Or will increasing violence in the US seek release, spilling over the borders to the rest of the world? A serious concern, as an unstable America could wreak a lot of damage across the globe.
Quite the imagination you have.

Quote:
If this just gets significantly worse, it should give the rest of world cause for concern. Mobs of angry Americans, doughy as they may be, are not to be reckoned with, and they have a less than stellar record as far as responding to reason.
Thanks for the laugh.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:10 PM   #57
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Hmm... I read this entire thread and not once did anyone mention any sort of responsibility on the part or the parent of the child that did the shooting.

Oh that's right, we can't hold parents or the person responsible accountable for anything anymore. It's pretty much "we can't hold anyone responsible for these things except for law abiding citizens who have not broken the law." Crack down hard on these law abiding folks, but when it comes to those committing the crimes or being an accessory to the crimes... well they can't help it... so give them a pass.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:14 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by nickn View Post
I have seen a huge amount of illegal drugs all over the place. I propose they ban all of them, on a federal level. Oh wait, they already did, over 40 years ago... Look at how well that has worked... Why wont the exact same thing happen with weapons??? Nobody has been able to answer that for me...
I think you can look at other western industrial countries for a clue to the answer.

Many of these nations restrict and regulate drugs similarly to the way drugs are restrict and regulate in the United States. And in these countries despite laws against drugs some level of drug use exists.

Those same nations don't have anywhere near the same number of guns as the United States and generally have stricter gun laws. They also have far less gun violence than the United States.

The key difference would appear to be that similar laws and conditions produce similar results. And that the United States is operating under laws and conditions that are hardly in step with other modern nations.

I believe you're correct in assuming that we'll never totally end gun violence by putting greater restrictions on firearms. But that doesn't mean we couldn't improve conditions with greater restrictions. Other nations have proved it's achievable.

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Originally Posted by nickn View Post
Statistically, WAY more people are killed in car accidents, so i'd recommend you never drive again.
Please define "WAY".

According to the CDC, in 2010 ...
Overall Motor Vehicle Deaths = 35,498

Firearm Deaths = 31,672
A difference of ~11%.

And according to a Bloomberg News article, the CDC, gun deaths are estimated to exceed traffic deaths in 2015 (see chart below)*.

So there's a good chance you'll only have a few more years to trot out that talking point. Use it while you can.

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Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
If you list the number of dictators that have been funded by European countries. We don't even have to talk about the colonial times....
OMG. Do you really want to review the number of dictators backed by the United States?

Is you memory and knowledge of that issue really that short?



*Estimated gun vs. traffic deaths
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:18 PM   #59
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Hmm... I read this entire thread and not once did anyone mention any sort of responsibility on the part or the parent of the child that did the shooting.
I hold the parents in New Mexico responsible for not securing their firearms that were later used by their own son to murder them and two of his siblings.

I will also view the parents in Atlanta responsible if they likewise did not keep their guns securely locked away.

Does that help?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:29 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I hold the parents in New Mexico responsible for not securing their firearms that were later used by their own son to murder them and two of his siblings.

Does that help?
Well I am certainly glad that you do, but it does seem that we have gotten to a point where we don't value any sort of personal responsibility at all.

I pose a question to you... I notice you are advocating hard for new gun laws... will those new gun laws even work if no one has any sort of responsibility? I assume you have to believe that all these people doing bad things are going to start taking personal responsibility and follow all the new laws you want and stop doing the wrong thing.

Look we have debated back and forth on this topic and I respect you. I do feel you are a liberal that is open to new ideas and although it can be hard to tell at times I do believe you value the 2nd Amendment. I should let you know that I am also quite liberal on social issues, however I stand firm on the 2nd Amendment and do not believe that some sort of an "assault weapons" ban is going to make any difference. I am not some sort of gun nut and the two rifles I own (yes they are so-called scary black guns) have always been properly stored and used only 100% legally for target shooting or hunting.

They are nothing more then basic semi-auto rifles and those types of rifles are used WAY LESS then any sort of handgun in a crime. I do everything properly and safety is my number one priority.

I am responsible for those rifles just like I am responsible to stop at a red light.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:44 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
I pose a question to you... I notice you are advocating hard for new gun laws... will those new gun laws even work if no one has any sort of responsibility? I assume you have to believe that all these people doing bad things are going to start taking personal responsibility and follow all the new laws you want and stop doing the wrong thing.
First, let's establish what "new gun laws" I'm advocating for. I'm advocating for restricting magazine size (preferably six bullets), fixed magazines and outlawing add-ons that allow semi-automatics to fire at automatic rates.

I do understand that won't do anything to take existing ones out of circulation.

However, over time, we can reduce the numbers of weapons with these capabilities. That is my only goal or expectation ... slow and protracted reduction in numbers of guns with those specific capabilities.

I don't believe that people will stop doing bad things or start taking personal responsibility.


Edit: I respect you too. I think we could share a beer.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
Hmm... I read this entire thread and not once did anyone mention any sort of responsibility on the part or the parent of the child that did the shooting.

Oh that's right, we can't hold parents or the person responsible accountable for anything anymore. It's pretty much "we can't hold anyone responsible for these things except for law abiding citizens who have not broken the law." Crack down hard on these law abiding folks, but when it comes to those committing the crimes or being an accessory to the crimes... well they can't help it... so give them a pass.
This is because, if you read my OP, I mentioned that I am reserving my opinion and comments on what may have happened until after the facts are uncovered. So it may behoove you to not jump to immediate conclusions until this is investigated.

Rest assured, parental responsibility will come up, but let's find out the FACTS first before assuming things.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen
Edit: I respect you too. I think we could share a beer.
Are you implying we should have a Macrumours Beer Summit?

BL.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
Ahhhhhh I see Macrumors is soft on crime!! tsk tsk

Back on topic. I think our problem in the US comes down to the family unit.

1. Broken homes reared by single parents well into the red
2. Ridiculous work hours creating latchkey kids by the millions
3. A love affair with violence whether it be in music, cinema or games.
you left off a love affair with guns
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:06 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
This is because, if you read my OP, I mentioned that I am reserving my opinion and comments on what may have happened until after the facts are uncovered. So it may behoove you to not jump to immediate conclusions until this is investigated.

Rest assured, parental responsibility will come up, but let's find out the FACTS first before assuming things.

EDIT:


Are you implying we should have a Macrumours Beer Summit?

BL.
Works for me. I love my beer and I love good discussion and friendly debate. Look a South Dakota liberal is a completely differently animal. Most of us are liberal only because we are libertarian in our social views. We believe that as long as people follow the law and pay their taxes they should be free to chose their path. I value low taxes, personal responsibility and the right to bear arms... but I also value people marrying the person they love regardless of their sex and women making the choice when it comes to their bodies. I am not concerned if my next door neighbor is a pot smoker, but if they are hurting people in the process then I have a big issue with it. Same way with guns. I don't care what you own as long as it is owned legally and you only use it in legal ways. If you break the law then the law should come down harshly on you.

Sometimes I really think the gun debate is more a rural versus urban debate then a liberal versus conservative debate. I grew up around guns and feel completely comfortable around them. For the most part guns are only used legally where I live and when they aren't examples are made of the people using them in the wrong way. We own guns to hunt, take care of rabid animals, and for personal protection when law enforcement may be miles away.

I'd share a beer with you anytime because in the end we could probably agree on a lot of things. I also agree on 100% background checks and I don't have an issue with limiting magazine size (although I feel it only punishes those of us using our weapons in a legal manner).

I think if all of us could look at areas where we can agree instead of focusing on our disagreement we would all be further along.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:08 PM   #65
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Works for me. I love my beer and I love good discussion and friendly debate. Look a South Dakota liberal is a completely differently animal. Most of us are liberal only because we are libertarian in our social views. We believe that as long as people follow the law and pay their taxes they should be free to chose their path. I value low taxes, personal responsibility and the right to bear arms... but I also value people marrying the person they love regardless of their sex and women making the choice when it comes to their bodies. I am not concerned if my next door neighbor is a pot smoker, but if they are hurting people in the process then I have a big issue with it. Same way with guns. I don't care what you own as long as it is owned legally and you only use it in legal ways. If you break the law then the law should come down harshly on you.

Sometimes I really think the gun debate is more a rural versus urban debate then a liberal versus conservative debate. I grew up around guns and feel completely comfortable around them. For the most part guns are only used legally where I live and when they aren't examples are made of the people using them in the wrong way. We own guns to hunt, take care of rabid animals, and for personal protection when law enforcement may be miles away.

I'd share a beer with you anytime because in the end we could probably agree on a lot of things. I also agree on 100% background checks and I don't have an issue with limiting magazine size (although I feel it only punishes those of us using our weapons in a legal manner).
I'll comment on this later.

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If only all of our lawmakers could find the areas they agree on and build on those while debating the rest we would be a lot further along.
Are you implying that Congress would pass better laws if they had some beer and/or were drunk? Pretty sure the rest of the country would be game for that.

BL.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:16 PM   #66
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I'll comment on this later.



Are you implying that Congress would pass better laws if they had some beer and/or were drunk? Pretty sure the rest of the country would be game for that.

BL.
Well I changed my original post... but yeah if they were all happy with a few bruskies they would probably all get along much better.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:19 PM   #67
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This cant keep going on like this.

At some point the international community will have to step in and take action.
I look forward to shooting members of the international community that feel the need to take action on American soil.

There is irony there...
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:23 PM   #68
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I look forward to shooting members of the international community that feel the need to take action on American soil.
And yet do you feel that we are perfectly justified in doing the same thing to other people in other countries? Vietnam? Korea? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Iraq? You do realize that you're setting the double standard here.

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:35 PM   #69
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And yet do you feel that we are perfectly justified in doing the same thing to other people in other countries? Vietnam? Korea? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Iraq? You do realize that you're setting the double standard here.

BL.
Write the president. He deals with justifications.

I'm a soldier. I deal with destroying bad guys, breaking their stuff, and getting paid.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:22 PM   #70
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I'm a soldier. I deal with destroying bad guys, breaking their stuff, and getting paid.
Who are the bad guys?
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:22 PM   #71
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Who are the bad guys?
The people that get destoryed and their stuff broken obviously...
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:25 PM   #72
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The people that get destoryed and their stuff broken obviously...
Might makes right.

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Old Feb 1, 2013, 12:18 AM   #73
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Write the president. He deals with justifications.

I'm a soldier. I deal with destroying bad guys, breaking their stuff, and getting paid.
"I was just following orders" is a very piss poor excuse.

But we get that you are only a soldier who follows the orders of his commanding officer...

But that doesn't mean that you do not have a brain of your own. So I say again: Do you feel that we are perfectly justified in doing the same thing to other people in other countries? Vietnam? Korea? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Iraq? You do realize that you are setting the double standard here.

BL.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 12:32 AM   #74
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"I was just following orders" is a very piss poor excuse.

But we get that you are only a soldier who follows the orders of his commanding officer...

But that doesn't mean that you do not have a brain of your own. So I say again: Do you feel that we are perfectly justified in doing the same thing to other people in other countries? Vietnam? Korea? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Iraq? You do realize that you are setting the double standard here.

BL.
If you're asking me as a civilian what my opinion is, I think most of these 3rd world feces hole nations aren't worth a single American life.

I wouldn't send one drop of aid or military muscle help any of these so called people that like beating women and raping boys and goats, nor would I prop up any governments. If these animals want to slaughter each other by the millions for a socialist/communist Utopia, or some God, then knock yourself out. Just leave me and mine alone.

That's what my civilian side says after being in Iraq and Afghanistan and seeing men sent home missing limbs or dead.

However, as a soldier, I'm not a policy maker. That's for the President of the United States.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 12:49 AM   #75
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I wonder... at what point can we consider the US a war zone when there's a shooting every couple of weeks...?

On a more serious note, the US doesn't need tighter gun laws, it needs an attitude adjustment regarding guns. The general mentality seems to be stuck in the wild west where everyone fends for themselves, but if you want to consider yourself a modern day society in the 21st century that also means getting with the program; drop the paranoia, embrace cultural and political changes and keep your fellow men and women alive.
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