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Old Feb 1, 2013, 02:02 AM   #76
Happybunny
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Why is another school shooting even news any more, it's just another day in the USA?

It would be more news worthy if there was NO school shooting!!!!!
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:20 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
I wonder... at what point can we consider the US a war zone when there's a shooting every couple of weeks...?
When is the last time you've been to a war zone?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 05:40 AM   #78
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Such nonsense. In the first place, the US invited the attack, please read up on the time period preceding the day that would "live in infamy", before you spew that patriotic blather about how the US was just minding its own business, then pow.
OK. I'll bite. The US initiated economic sanctions against the Japanese Empire because it had invaded China and committed atrocities there. This was a nonviolent response to a blatant act of aggression. I fail to understand how anybody could read history and come to the conclusion that the US invited or welcomed an attack that killed more than two thousand US servicemen on the first day alone.

Some people in this forum demonize the US. The US is far from perfect, but it is though some here are determined to see the country in the worst light. The lesson about these shooting is that there is a specific problem with US law regarding guns, not that the entire country. The US has more than a quarter of a billion people in it, they're not all bad....
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 05:48 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
I wonder... at what point can we consider the US a war zone when there's a shooting every couple of weeks...?

On a more serious note, the US doesn't need tighter gun laws, it needs an attitude adjustment regarding guns. The general mentality seems to be stuck in the wild west where everyone fends for themselves, but if you want to consider yourself a modern day society in the 21st century that also means getting with the program; drop the paranoia, embrace cultural and political changes and keep your fellow men and women alive.
You know, Europe, specifically the U.K. is absolutely no panacea. Many of you come here and demonize us and act as if you live in a world that sees not crime, that is far from the truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

"Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.
The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...crackdown.html

"Police have revealed the chilling array of deadly weapons they seized in just four months - including a crossbow and a traditional samurai sword.
The fearsome arsenal, which even includes a gold-plated axe, was put on display yesterday by West Midlands Police as part of a new anti-weapons campaign.
Other dangerous arms featured in the grim haul are nunchuks, knuckle dusters, a giant flick knife and crude planks of wood with nails hammered into them."

I'll even beat you (or some other liberal) to a response to this:

"Its better to get beaten with a blunt object or stabbed multiple times than it is to get shot"...yeah right. Thats the same thing as saying its better to be a victim than it is to be able to defend yourself.

We have our share of problems here, and no one is denying that there is a problem with violent criminals getting guns here..but maybe some of you need to worry more about your own country a little bit more and let us worry about ours.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 05:55 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
You know, Europe, specifically the U.K. is absolutely no panacea. Many of you come here and demonize us and act as if you live in a world that sees not crime, that is far from the truth.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

"Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.
The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...crackdown.html

"Police have revealed the chilling array of deadly weapons they seized in just four months - including a crossbow and a traditional samurai sword.
The fearsome arsenal, which even includes a gold-plated axe, was put on display yesterday by West Midlands Police as part of a new anti-weapons campaign.
Other dangerous arms featured in the grim haul are nunchuks, knuckle dusters, a giant flick knife and crude planks of wood with nails hammered into them."

I'll even beat you (or some other liberal) to a response to this:

"Its better to get beaten with a blunt object or stabbed multiple times than it is to get shot"...yeah right. Thats the same thing as saying its better to be a victim than it is to be able to defend yourself.

We have our share of problems here, and no one is denying that there is a problem with violent criminals getting guns here..but maybe some of you need to worry more about your own country a little bit more and let us worry about ours.
Daily Mail! Good laughs.

Labour brought in changes to PACE, reporting, statistics, a complete overhaul of the system.

The absurd lengths gun-loving apologists will go to defend their ridiculous gun death rate...
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 05:58 AM   #81
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Daily Mail! Good laughs.

Labour brought in changes to PACE, reporting, statistics, a complete overhaul of the system.

The absurd lengths gun-loving apologists will go to defend their ridiculous gun death rate...
So you are denying the UK crime rate ? Do you have alternative stats? or proof that it is not that high?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 06:02 AM   #82
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So you are denying the UK crime rate ? Do you have alternative stats? or proof that it is not that high?
We got tough on guns, it worked.

We're getting tough on knife crime too.

During the year to June 2012 there were approximately 29,613 recorded offences involving knives or other sharp instruments, accounting for 7% of selected offences, a similar proportion to previous years. The number of knife offences recorded was 9% lower than in the preceding year.

NHS data suggests there were 4,490 people admitted to English hospitals in 2011/12 due to assault by a sharp object. The lowest level since 2002/03.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 06:06 AM   #83
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We got tough on guns, it worked.

We're getting tough on knife crime too.

During the year to June 2012 there were approximately 29,613 recorded offences involving knives or other sharp instruments, accounting for 7% of selected offences, a similar proportion to previous years. The number of knife offences recorded was 9% lower than in the preceding year.

NHS data suggests there were 4,490 people admitted to English hospitals in 2011/12 due to assault by a sharp object. The lowest level since 2002/03.
but in total violent crime you are still ahead of us...please don't twist the facts to indicate otherwise. the fact is you still have a problem.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...d-States/Crime

and according to this the US in 9th in terms of violent crime as a percentage of the population

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ssault-victims

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Old Feb 1, 2013, 06:28 AM   #84
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but in total violent crime you are still ahead of us...please don't twist the facts to indicate otherwise. the fact is you still have a problem.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/...d-States/Crime

and according to this the US in 9th in terms of violent crime as a percentage of the population

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ssault-victims
What does that even mean. You have gun crime, you deal with it. if knife crime pops up, you deal with it. We have problems, we admit them and face them. You have problems, you hide behind your Constitution.

You don't say, 'our gun crime is okay, because some other country has high knife crime'. You compare like for like. You have a gun problem, so you look to countries who have dealt with it. Like the US and Aus.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 08:03 AM   #85
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What does that even mean. You have gun crime, you deal with it. if knife crime pops up, you deal with it. We have problems, we admit them and face them. You have problems, you hide behind your Constitution.

You don't say, 'our gun crime is okay, because some other country has high knife crime'. You compare like for like. You have a gun problem, so you look to countries who have dealt with it. Like the US and Aus.
We hide behind our Constitution? I think you really are misunderstanding his point.

1st, the point he's making is that despite efforts to reduce crime through removing firearms in the UK, the UK is still having crime issues, highest in Europe in fact. So even though the UK banned the firearms, it hasn't fixed the problem, and perhaps has just made it worse or at best had no effect.

2nd, some people certainly do, but the argument here isn't about "hiding behind our Constitution. That's like saying you're hiding behind the law, and it's absurd.

3rd, In the US, despite our gun violence "problems" we acknowledge that with liberty comes responsibility and sometimes tough consequences. When people argue about gun rights in the US it's because we believe, in general, that the citizens of the US have the right to bear arms. It's fundamental to who we are, just as the freedom to protest against your government, and write bad things about it. It's a trio of rights which says that although we have come together to create a government, and a union, we always reserve the right to tear that down. It doesn't matter how much anybody thinks it's a fantasy, it's our right and it's protected in our laws. If nothing more than a symbolic gestured, it's still important to the foundation of the United States.

So I think that your comment about hiding behind the Constitution is pretty absurd. "Oh look at you hiding behind the laws and spirit of your country because I disagree with your position".
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 08:19 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
I wonder... at what point can we consider the US a war zone when there's a shooting every couple of weeks...?

On a more serious note, the US doesn't need tighter gun laws, it needs an attitude adjustment regarding guns. The general mentality seems to be stuck in the wild west where everyone fends for themselves, but if you want to consider yourself a modern day society in the 21st century that also means getting with the program; drop the paranoia, embrace cultural and political changes and keep your fellow men and women alive.
It's not general mentality, it's the way our justice system works. Our laws are that police have no duty to protect us.

Warren decision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_...ct_of_Columbia

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Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is an oft-quoted[2] District of Columbia Court of Appeals (equivalent to a state supreme court) case that held police do not have a duty to provide police services to individuals, even if a dispatcher promises help to be on the way
If we aren't going to take responsibility for our own personal safety, noone else is.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 08:41 AM   #87
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Same old wooly NRA peddled nonsense
Of course you can hide behind the law. To say that's 'absurd' reveals your lemming mentality. If a law is doing our society harm, we repeal it. We say it's wrong. With gun crime, Americans put some musket law from a different era above the lives of the people. It's cultist, bizarre and wrong.

You hide behind your Constitution, in the same way a religious nut hides their bigotry with a Bible.

The point about UK knife law is a pathetic NRA peddled smoke and mirror exercise. A confused number of Americans use that as some sort of justification for not dealing with guns. We had high gun crime, and we dealt with it, now we have high knife crime, and we're dealing with it. Whatever comes along, we will deal with it - head on. No excuses. We band locked knives on the street, we banned sale of knives to under 18s in shops. We're increasing stop and searches.

By contrast, when America has high gun crime, they run out and buy more guns.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 08:51 AM   #88
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Of course you can hide behind the law. To say that's 'absurd' reveals your lemming mentality. If a law is doing our society harm, we repeal it. We say it's wrong. With gun crime, Americans put some musket law from a different era above the lives of the people. It's cultist, bizarre and wrong.
the fact that the law was from a different era is irrelevent. So was freedom of speech, press, and petition.So I think from now on we can just go ahead and not even bring that up.


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Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
The point about UK knife law is a pathetic NRA peddled smoke and mirror exercise. A confused number of Americans use that as some sort of justification for not dealing with guns. We had high gun crime, and we dealt with it, now we have high knife crime, and we're dealing with it. Whatever comes along, we will deal with it - head on. No excuses. We band locked knives on the street, we banned sale of knives to under 18s in shops. We're increasing stop and searches.
I see you missed my point.

When people bring up the most violent country in Europe, aka the UK, it's not because "we don't want to deal with guns", it's because it demonstrates that banning guns isn't a catch-all solution. We will deal wiht guns, up until the point it restricts our liberty, and at that point we'll just have to either live with it, or find ways to reduce problems associated with our liberties without restricting them. Have you noticed there is absolutely 0 discussion about banning firearms completely? Have you noticed nobody even thinks about banning handguns (despite they are by far the #1 tool of gun related homicides)? It's because in the US we're just arguing over details about our liberty, no different than should we or should we not let Westboro Baptist Church protest soldiers funerals.

And people draw the comparison between the US and UK, because the UK continues to ban and ban and ban things that people use for crime, yet it does nothing for crime except infringe on what would be absolutley unacceptable here, things like "stopping and searching people". That's tyrannical, to say the least, and we won't put up with it. I speak for myself, but I submit that I likely speak for many Americans when I say we wouldn't put up with such stops, or banning of so many things in a second, and would rather have crime than let bad guys, thugs, and criminals, commit crimes and in turn have things taken from us.

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By contrast, when America has high gun crime, they run out and buy more guns.
Only because of the possibility of a ban. Man, it's such a problem with all those law-abiding citizens going out and buying something.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 08:55 AM   #89
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If you only watched the news of any locale, you'd probably be terrified to live there. We're not so bad.
No, compared to the rest of the developed world, your gun death/injury stats are just.... WAY high.

As in... hundreds of times above the norm.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 08:56 AM   #90
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And people draw the comparison between the US and UK, because the UK continues to ban and ban and ban things that people use for crime, yet it does nothing for crime except infringe on what would be absolutley unacceptable here, things like "stopping and searching people". That's tyrannical, to say the least, and we won't put up with it. I speak for myself, but I submit that I likely speak for many Americans when I say we wouldn't put up with such stops, or banning of so many things in a second, and would rather have crime than let bad guys, thugs, and criminals, commit crimes and in turn have things taken from us.


I for one couldn't be more proud of those second amendment patriots who rose up and stopped the tyranny that NYC practices with its stop and frisk program, used over 600,000 times in 2011.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 09:02 AM   #91
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No, compared to the rest of the developed world, your gun death/injury stats are just.... WAY high.

As in... hundreds of times above the norm.
Maybe we should kick people off our Olympic team for holding a gun while on vacation

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I for one couldn't be more proud of those second amendment patriots who rose up and stopped the tyranny that NYC practices with its stop and frisk program, used over 600,000 times in 2011.
link?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 09:15 AM   #92
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We band locked knives on the street,
I am not overly familiar with the term "locked knives" but from a quick search it appears you are talking about pocket knives. Is there a blade length that is banned or is it all "locked knives"?

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we banned sale of knives to under 18s in shops.
Really, for all knives?

Quote:
We're increasing stop and searches.
So even more invasion of privacy. Can these stop and searches be done without warning or other offense (just a "hey I am going to search you for knives now"?).
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 09:27 AM   #93
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I am not overly familiar with the term "locked knives" but from a quick search it appears you are talking about pocket knives. Is there a blade length that is banned or is it all "locked knives"?


Really, for all knives?


So even more invasion of privacy. Can these stop and searches be done without warning or other offense (just a "hey I am going to search you for knives now"?).
We have a lot of knife law on length and function. Wiki As you read through it you'll notice a lot of areas for interpretation of definition, so if you're wondering, we interpret knife law strictly.

Where I live we have all the most restrictive knife laws, including the most recent one, the

Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 makes it an offence to sell knives to someone under 18 years of age (including any blade, razor blade, any bladed or pointed article, or any item made or adapted for causing personal injury.)
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 09:53 AM   #94
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I would be terrified to live in America.
This is because you place far too much value on media sensationalism, and not near enough on cold, hard, statistics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 09:59 AM   #95
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We have a lot of knife law on length and function. Wiki As you read through it you'll notice a lot of areas for interpretation of definition, so if you're wondering, we interpret knife law strictly.

Where I live we have all the most restrictive knife laws, including the most recent one, the

Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 makes it an offence to sell knives to someone under 18 years of age (including any blade, razor blade, any bladed or pointed article, or any item made or adapted for causing personal injury.)
So i skimmed through the link, did not read it in great detail i admit.

I have, am, and will likely break all of those laws... in one day.
I have a pocket knife on me that would likely be considered a "locked knife". I also carry a "box cutter" or razor knife for opening packages and the like at work. I also have a "survival" knife in the emergency kit in my car.

The next thing you will start doing is banning the sale of kitchen chefs knives... because they are pointy and sharp...
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:03 AM   #96
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:16 AM   #97
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The next thing you will start doing is banning the sale of kitchen chefs knives... because they are pointy and sharp...
We do already. Over 18s can buy them, but can't be kept in public without a good reason (ie travelling by car to a picnic).
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:47 AM   #98
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I have a pocket knife on me that would likely be considered a "locked knife".
Why do you carry a knife?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:51 AM   #99
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Why do you carry a knife?
Why does it matter? Do we really need to question why people want to carry or own things?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:11 AM   #100
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Why do you carry a knife?
Any number of things.

In general it is used with the lunches that I pack. I usually have an apple, pear, peach, etc and usually cut it up for lunch.

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We do already. Over 18s can buy them, but can't be kept in public without a good reason (ie travelling by car to a picnic).
So much for me being able to get the Christmas gift my sister and I got my mom when I was 16. My sister and I went in on a block set of Henckels for her christmas that year... that would not have been possible from what I gather you are saying above.
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