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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:16 PM   #126
torana355
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Originally Posted by classicaliberal View Post
This is because you place far too much value on media sensationalism, and not near enough on cold, hard, statistics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
That link has Australia with one of the lowest homicide rates and America with one of the worst.... Not sure what your point is?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:25 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by prostuff1 View Post
No conceal carry course teaches "shoot to disable". When you feel the need to pull your gun and have to fire it is ALWAYS shoot to kill. That means aiming at center mass so you have the best chance of stopping the target.
I never said anything about a conceal carry course, now did I? What I did say is that someone with military training such as the person I replied to should have that type of training, know the difference between the two, and know when to use one or the other. The fact that he would bypass one and go straight to the other shows the hairtrigger some people are on today.

Quote:
I have talked to a number of people in law enforcement, including family members, and they have told me that there train with handguns is a double tap to the body area and then a shot at the head.

My conceal carry course taught us to double tap to center of mass and repeat until the target was down and no longer posed a threat.
My father was 30+ years on the force in Omaha as a local LEO. He was definitely trained to do the former, as he had taught me as well, in case that ever came up. But you have perfectly described the telling lack between what normal civilians are taught verses those in the military or Law Enforcement. Furthermore, you have also described how normal civilians wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two and go off of the only training they've had. I would call that a lack of training by the conceal carry courses.

BL.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:28 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
UK crime is at it's lowest. Down 29% from 10 years ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...-england-wales
US violent crime rate is down for the 5th straight year and I suspect the general crime rate is too

Link
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:36 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
I never said anything about a conceal carry course, now did I?
I will concede that you did not mention anything about conceal carry.

Quote:
What I did say is that someone with military training such as the person I replied to should have that type of training, know the difference between the two, and know when to use one or the other. The fact that he would bypass one and go straight to the other shows the hairtrigger some people are on today.
I would argue that you don't shoot to wound/disable/etc.

Quote:
My father was 30+ years on the force in Omaha as a local LEO. He was definitely trained to do the former, as he had taught me as well, in case that ever came up.
Then training must have changed and/or is different in my area. The conceal carry class I took was taught by a cop and he said they do not shoot to disable. When they pull there gun they fully intend on stopping the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Quote:
But you have perfectly described the telling lack between what normal civilians are taught verses those in the military or Law Enforcement.
Of course a conceal carry training course is going to be less rigorous than full on LEO or military. We need a cop to chime in and let us know how current train methods are done and if they are told to "shoot to disable"

Quote:
Furthermore, you have also described how normal civilians wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two and go off of the only training they've had. I would call that a lack of training by the conceal carry courses.
What is there to differentiate?

If someone is coming at me, in my home, etc and I can not escape and feel that I am in mortal danger and fear for my life I am not going to aim at the targets feet and fire twice. That only gives that target more time to get closer. I am going to aim at center mass and pull the trigger as many times as need to neutralize the threat.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:39 PM   #130
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Ever tried diplomacy?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:41 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
I never said anything about a conceal carry course, now did I? What I did say is that someone with military training such as the person I replied to should have that type of training, know the difference between the two, and know when to use one or the other. The fact that he would bypass one and go straight to the other shows the hairtrigger some people are on today.



My father was 30+ years on the force in Omaha as a local LEO. He was definitely trained to do the former, as he had taught me as well, in case that ever came up. But you have perfectly described the telling lack between what normal civilians are taught verses those in the military or Law Enforcement. Furthermore, you have also described how normal civilians wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two and go off of the only training they've had. I would call that a lack of training by the conceal carry courses.

BL.
How about some non-anecdotal evidence? like this..

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/c...KIeHqY85ZHJSYI

"Under present NYPD training, cops are taught to shoot at the center of their target and fire their weapon until the threat has been stopped."

or this:

http://www.roybedard.com/2011/04/cen...oting-to-kill/

"“Two shots to the body, center mass…follow it with one to the head. The use of a firearm is deadly force, folks and your shots need to stop the threat. Remember, the ultimate responsibility for taking another human life is yours. No one else can make that decision for you. You have to be prepared both physically and mentally. To stop a deadly threat you have to know when and where to shoot. I want to see good target placement and a tight group on your chest shots. Are there any questions? OK… Is the line ready? The line is ready… on the command… draw and fire!”

like i said...I never heard of anyone being trained to wound.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:45 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by skunk View Post
Ever tried diplomacy?
That's my strategy. I don't carry a gun. I don't carry a knife.

I try to go through life armed with noting more than peace, compassion, patience, empathy and temperance.

Or as some Americans would say, I'm a "surrender monkey".

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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:49 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
That's my strategy. I don't carry a gun. I don't carry a knife.

I try to go through life armed with noting more than peace, compassion, patience, empathy and temperance.

Or as some Americans would say, I'm a "surrender monkey".

I go through life armed with the same compliment, I just carry a gun too
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 04:55 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by skunk View Post
Ever tried diplomacy?
thats my first choice as well, but I like to have a backup plan for when that fails.

----------

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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
Various police departments have taught that, as well as the federal agents I have come into contact with. LEOs, for sure, unless the situation became imminent that shooting to kill is justified.

BL.
read some of the replies about this topic for yourself here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/143...or_kill__.html

like I said, I have never heard of anyone being trained to "shoot to wound".
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 05:00 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
US violent crime rate is down for the 5th straight year and I suspect the general crime rate is too

Link
If you go by the Gallup poll and some other polls, firearm ownership has also been declining during that same time period. There's also an interesting observation that the most violent regions in the country are those with the highest rates of firearm ownership (again, according to polls, so the data isn't perfect).

I wouldn't argue that firearms cause violent crime or violence. They don't. There's no data indicating that they prevent it, either. If we want to cut crime then we need to work on chipping away at poverty and gang culture. However, we also need to recognize that the more firearms there are in an area, the greater the likelihood that they're going to find their way into someone's hands. When they do, the magnitude of injury inflicted will very likely be greater than if they were using something else.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 05:16 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by torana355 View Post
I would be terrified to live in America.
This. Being shot ain't fun and I won't be going there as long as guns are perfectly legal. Kids will continue getting shot until guns are outlawed. I hope you guys still have some kids left by the time you realise.

I'd rather dodge a knife blade than a bullet. Any day.

You guys over there need to do something. Alarm bells should have been ringing ages ago.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 05:53 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by prostuff1 View Post


Of course a conceal carry training course is going to be less rigorous than full on LEO or military. We need a cop to chime in and let us know how current train methods are done and if they are told to "shoot to disable"
Speaking of that, it would be nice if there was more R&D in non-lethal force, especially with similar range and effectiveness. I'm not aware of anything.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 06:38 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
I heard the 8th grader shot in the head was wearing a hoodie.
Sounds like the shooter may have worn one as well.


Last edited by webbuzz; Feb 1, 2013 at 06:39 PM. Reason: typo
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 07:10 PM   #139
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That wasn't the question.

The question is, why do you carry a knife with you?

I use knives everyday as well.

But I leave them at home when I go out.

I can't remember the last time I needed to cut something outside of my home or work.

YMMV.
You have never had to cut anything outside? Huh.

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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
I'm totally down with that and agree wholeheartedly. But as I said before, I'm waiting for the investigation to reveal the facts about what has happened, then will go on the tirade about parents. We don't even know how the kid got the gun let alone what his motives were behind this. Let's wait for that to come out first.
I honestly don't care what the motive of the kid was when it comes to the question of where did a middle school kid get a gun.

I know they have to investigate and that info is important to the crime that the child committed, but there is still another crime that has been committed and something like a ticket or a small fine is not sufficient for allowing a child to get a gun.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 07:22 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
If you go by the Gallup poll and some other polls, firearm ownership has also been declining during that same time period. There's also an interesting observation that the most violent regions in the country are those with the highest rates of firearm ownership (again, according to polls, so the data isn't perfect).
I'd have to see a link
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 07:56 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post

I honestly don't care what the motive of the kid was when it comes to the question of where did a middle school kid get a gun.

I know they have to investigate and that info is important to the crime that the child committed, but there is still another crime that has been committed and something like a ticket or a small fine is not sufficient for allowing a child to get a gun.
Once again, no argument there. I agree that the parents or whoever got him the gun should be arrested and held accountable for this, especially since it is a minor. But I'm more concerned with those in the extreme pro-gun camp saying that this shouldn't deter anyone else from getting a gun.

I'll be a bit more blunt: How many more gun-related child deaths or injuries whether it be by an adult shooter or another child shooter is it going to take for this country to wake up, open their bloody eyes, and handle the immediate situation, which is the procurement and proper storage of guns?

There is only so much more hiding behind the Second Amendment people can do before something much worse happens or efforts to get that clause of it repealed come up.

BL.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 08:26 PM   #142
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
You have never had to cut anything outside? Huh.
Actually, you're right.

I do remember having a difficult time getting into a bag of chips recently.

So I guess I should carry a pair of scissors around.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 09:03 PM   #143
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Actually, you're right.

I do remember having a difficult time getting into a bag of chips recently.

So I guess I should carry a pair of scissors around.
I am surprised you open your own chips.



I guess it's just different worlds. I use a knife probably every day at work, several times a week in the garage or out on the property, all the time around the house (last night to open a DVD), often in the truck...it's a dang handy tool. I'm getting ready to go use one to gut a deer as soon as dinner is done.

I don't know why you would even bother to question why someone would carry a pocket knife or belittle them because they do.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 09:27 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
I guess it's just different worlds. I use a knife probably every day at work, several times a week in the garage or out on the property, all the time around the house (last night to open a DVD), often in the truck...it's a dang handy tool. I'm getting ready to go use one to gut a deer as soon as dinner is done.
That's cool.

So keep a knife in your garage or in your truck.

But if you have a knife in a sheath on your hip when you're sniffing cantaloupe at your local supermarket (and how else are you going to find a ripe cantaloupe?) then I'd say you're carrying the Grizzly Adams thing a little too far.

Last edited by citizenzen; Feb 1, 2013 at 09:39 PM. Reason: misspelled "you're"
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:15 PM   #145
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This. Being shot ain't fun and I won't be going there as long as guns are perfectly legal. Kids will continue getting shot until guns are outlawed. I hope you guys still have some kids left by the time you realise.

I'd rather dodge a knife blade than a bullet. Any day.

You guys over there need to do something. Alarm bells should have been ringing ages ago.
Guns will never be outlawed in the United States. It would be impossible to disarm the entire population.

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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
That's cool.

So keep a knife in your garage or in your truck.

But if you have a knife in a sheath on your hip when you're sniffing cantaloupe at your local supermarket (and how else are you going to find a ripe cantaloupe?) then I'd say you're carrying the Grizzly Adams thing a little too far.
It's called a pocket knife. It fits in your pocket. I'm not talking about something like this....



Why are you bothered if someone wants to have a pocket knife?
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 12:01 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
Why are you bothered if someone wants to have a pocket knife?
My line of questioning began with these posts.

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Originally Posted by niuniu View Post
We have a lot of knife law on length and function. Wiki As you read through it you'll notice a lot of areas for interpretation of definition, so if you're wondering, we interpret knife law strictly.

Where I live we have all the most restrictive knife laws, including the most recent one, the

Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 makes it an offence to sell knives to someone under 18 years of age (including any blade, razor blade, any bladed or pointed article, or any item made or adapted for causing personal injury.)
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Originally Posted by prostuff1 View Post
So i skimmed through the link, did not read it in great detail i admit.

I have, am, and will likely break all of those laws... in one day.
I have a pocket knife on me that would likely be considered a "locked knife". I also carry a "box cutter" or razor knife for opening packages and the like at work. I also have a "survival" knife in the emergency kit in my car.

The next thing you will start doing is banning the sale of kitchen chefs knives... because they are pointy and sharp...
I asked prostuff—and later you—why you feel compelled to carry a knife.

I tend to question why any civilian feels the need to carry weapons.

It strikes me as odd and a trifle uncivilized.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 12:25 AM   #147
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My line of questioning began with these posts.





I asked prostuff—and later you—why you feel compelled to carry a knife.

I tend to question why any civilian feels the need to carry weapons.

It strikes me as odd and a trifle uncivilized.
I don't see a pocket knife as a weapon. I see it as a tool. Sometimes I have my pocket knife, sometimes I have leatherman, sometimes I have a gerber. I like my pocket knife because I don't have to sharpen it, just pop a new razor sharp blade in and go. But the letherman and gerber come in handy quite often with the other tools in them. Some people carry their iPad everywhere they go. I don't. Who cares.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 12:29 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post

like i said...I never heard of anyone being trained to wound.
Might even be illegal in some states. My last LEO CCW instructor was pretty clear. You shoot to stop. Never give warning shots or shoot to wound or you could have legal problems.

And it's pretty clear that the only way to stop someone with certainty is to hit the brain, or sever the spinal cord, but under stress, aiming center mass is the best bang for your buck.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 03:00 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I tend to question why any civilian feels the need to carry weapons.

It strikes me as odd and a trifle uncivilized.
Are you ****ing kidding me?



You consider that a weapon and uncivilized?

You've got issues.
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Old Feb 2, 2013, 03:02 PM   #150
citizenzen
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You consider that a weapon and uncivilized?
I hardly consider that a knife.

Perhaps you can lend it to MuddyPaws the next time he needs to gut a deer.

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