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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:12 AM   #1
niuniu
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Better roads, more bikes, less cars

Was temped to stick this in Community, but it only takes a couple of Brits to get involved to turn a simple cycling topic into a bloodbath.

Driving deaths are unacceptably high, under-sentenced (again, in the UK at least) and cars are a huge source of pollution. We should be moving toward a more Dutch-centric infrastructure with wide cycle lanes, heated and lighted.

It can also helps with obesity and heart disease, the latter of which is the highest cause of death (in the UK at least). To push people towards cycling we could be increasing tax on cars and making congestion charges in cities more widespread.

How life could be


How life is (in the UK)

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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:20 AM   #2
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Driving deaths are unacceptably high, under-sentenced (again, in the UK at least) and are a huge source of pollution.
How are driving deaths a huge source of pollution?

Personally, I think bikes should be banned from roads that don't have a dedicated bike lane or a sidewalk.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:22 AM   #3
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How are driving deaths a huge source of pollution?

Personally, I think bikes should be banned from roads that don't have a dedicated bike lane or a sidewalk.
Or we could ban cars from roads that don't have a dedicated car lane.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:26 AM   #4
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I think we should work on improving roads for bikers across the US as well. I think we need more trains too.

Removing cars from the road is good because of the reasons you mentioned, but also for economic efficency. Trucks are spending less time stuck in traffic when there are less cars on the road.

Only problem with the US, not so much the UK, is the US is huge. For most places this is impractical at best (bikes that is).
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:26 AM   #5
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How are driving deaths a huge source of pollution?

Personally, I think bikes should be banned from roads that don't have a dedicated bike lane or a sidewalk.
Why?
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:29 AM   #6
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Why?
Safety. Getting in the way of traffic.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:32 AM   #7
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Safety. Getting in the way of traffic.
Well, I was hoping he would answer....
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:38 AM   #8
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:42 AM   #9
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Why?
Because they're a hazard to traffic. This whole notion that "bikes have the same road rights as cars" was a mistake from the beginning. Roads are built for cars to move people efficiently from place to place and bikes are a dangerous hindrance.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:44 AM   #10
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Because they're a hazard to traffic. This whole notion that "bikes have the same road rights as cars" was a mistake from the beginning. Roads are built for cars to move people efficiently from place to place and bikes are a dangerous hindrance.
Vehicle traffic is the hazard. To other traffic, to cyclists, pedestrians and animals and the environment.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:49 AM   #11
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Lucky for me then that I live in a place that doesn't overly pander to cyclists.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:51 AM   #12
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Lucky for me then that I live in a place that doesn't overly pander to cyclists.
Me, me, me.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:52 AM   #13
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How are driving deaths a huge source of pollution?

Personally, I think bikes should be banned from roads that don't have a dedicated bike lane or a sidewalk.
It's illegal in most places to cycle on the sidewalk.

I agree, cycling should be advocated way more. I wouldn't go as far as to say that cars need to be taken off the road, but I think most places could benefit from more advanced cycling infrastructure.

I rode my bike 3009 miles during the period between April 12, 2012 and December 30, 2012. I'm 16, don't have a license, and don't drive. So my bike is my main source of transportation and exercise.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 10:55 AM   #14
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It's illegal in most places to cycle on the sidewalk.

I agree, cycling should be advocated way more. I wouldn't go as far as to say that cars need to be taken off the road, but I think most places could benefit from more advanced cycling infrastructure.

I rode my bike 3009 miles during the period between April 12, 2012 and December 30, 2012. I'm 16, don't have a license, and don't drive. So my bike is my main source of transportation and exercise.
Seems pretty reasonable. It's kind of obvious why bikes are banned from sidewalks. Where I live we have a bike lane through some of town, though it's limited.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:02 AM   #15
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Because they're a hazard to traffic. This whole notion that "bikes have the same road rights as cars" was a mistake from the beginning. Roads are built for cars to move people efficiently from place to place and bikes are a dangerous hindrance.
If the correct training was in place - for both drivers of vehicles and operators of bicycles - it would cease being a hazard.

I'm long time road biker, and frankly on any roads other than highways the 2 should be able to coexist. If the biker is following the rules of the road and drivers are paying attention (which they should be doing anyway) there really shouldn't be that many issues.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:04 AM   #16
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Lucky for me then that I live in a place that doesn't overly pander to cyclists.

...and has one of the highest pedestrian/cyclist death rates in the US.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:04 AM   #17
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Lucky for me then that I live in a place that doesn't overly pander to cyclists.
From my experience driving in most places in Florida - you all would be better off pandering to cyclists and taking all of the 95 year old drivers off of the road. You do that and it would be safer for everyone.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:06 AM   #18
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Because they're a hazard to traffic. This whole notion that "bikes have the same road rights as cars" was a mistake from the beginning. Roads are built for cars to move people efficiently from place to place and bikes are a dangerous hindrance.
It's problematic when bicyclists don't respect either car or pedestrian rules. Many of them coast through stop signs. Other than that, not everyone can afford a car, and public transportation is horrendous in much of the US, including many of its larger cities.

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From my experience driving in most places in Florida - you all would be better off pandering to cyclists and taking all of the 95 year old drivers off of the road. You do that and it would be safer for everyone.
This needs to happen in a lot of other areas too, and it further supports my concern that public transportation is often terribly inefficient in the US. Old people with failing vision shouldn't be behind a wheel, yet they also shouldn't be confined to their homes.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:06 AM   #19
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From my experience driving in most places in Florida - you all would be better off pandering to cyclists and taking all of the 95 year old drivers off of the road. You do that and it would be safer for everyone.
...... while you're at it ban all Northerners over the age of 65 from entering the state !
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:08 AM   #20
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The reason in the UK and USA that you don't have good cycle paths is simple you are not the Netherlands.

We have 16,000,000 population and 18,000,000 cycles.
We have 135,000 kilometers of roads all types, and 35,000 kilometers of cycle paths.

No single reason accounts for why cycling is so popular in the Netherlands; rather the combination of many 'bicycle friendly' factors reinforce each other:

There is a continuous network of cycle paths, clearly signposted, well maintained and well lit, with road/cycle path junctions that often give priority to cyclists. This makes cycling itself convenient, pleasant, and safe.
The Netherlands is a relatively densely populated and very flat country, which means that journeys tend to be well within the capabilities of the average cyclist. Cycling is very cheap and has low overheads.
The needs of cyclists are taken into account in all stages of urban planning. Urban areas are frequently organised as woonerfs (living streets), which prioritise cyclists and pedestrians over motorised traffic.
Most children between the age of 10 and 16 cycle to school, and they develop an early appreciation of the freedom that cycling gives.

Secondary school children quite commonly cycle over 15 km (9.3 mi) in each direction to school. This is perhaps why Dutch utility cyclists are fast, and has helped the Dutch have a presence in competitive cycle racing which is surprisingly large given the small population of the country.

Utility bicycles which are low in maintenance and suited to load carrying are very popular. However, all other types of cycles are accommodated on the cycle paths, from racing bikes with tri-bars through streamlined velomobiles. The cycle path network supports use at such speeds. There is also a good network of bicycle shops throughout the country.

The Netherlands employs a standards-based approach to road design, where conflicts between different modes of transport are eliminated wherever possible and reduced in severity as much as possible where elimination is not possible. The result of this is that cycling is made both objectively and subjectively safe. Towns have been designed with limited access by cars and limited (decreasing over time) car parking. The resulting heavy traffic and very limited car parking makes car use unattractive in towns.

"Strict liability", supported in law in the Netherlands, leads to driver's insurance being deemed to be responsible in a collision between a car and a cyclist. Dutch drivers are trained for the interaction with cyclists, for example by checking and re-checking their right-hand side before making a turn to the right.

Bicycle helmets are hardly ever worn in the Netherlands - the same can be said for Denmark, and for other places with much traffic by bicycle. Cyclists of all ages, and the government, consider the bicycle helmet unnecessary and there is no 'helmet law'.

These factors together far outweigh the negative factors of wet and windy weather, strong headwinds due to the flat terrain, and frequent bicycle thefts. Nearly a third of all journeys made in the Netherlands are made by bicycle. Even the over 65 age group make nearly a quarter of their journeys by bicycle. Within some cities, over half of all journeys are made by bicycle.

By 2012 cycling had grown tremendously in popularity. In Amsterdam alone, 490,000 freewheeling fietsers take to the road to cycle 2 million kilometres every day according to statistics of the city council. Despite 35,000 kilometres of bicycle paths, the 18 million bicycles (1.3 per citizen old enough to ride) are clogging the busiest areas. A quarter of all deadly accidents in the Netherlands involve cyclists, the Cycling Association said.[3]

Infrastructure

Many roads have one or two separate cycleways along them, or cycle lanes marked on the road. Cycling on the main carriageway is not permitted on roads where adjacent segregated cycle facilities exist so, where they exist, the use of such facilities is legally compulsory.[4] On other roads and streets, bicycle and motor vehicles share the same road-space, but these are usually roads with a low speed limit.[citation needed]

Tunnels and bridges may or may not be accessible for cycling; if pedal cycles are prohibited, there is usually a separate facility. For example, the Western Scheldt Tunnel is not accessible for pedestrians, cyclists or moped riders. They have to use the ferry at another location, or take the bus through the tunnel. Unlike the vast majority of bus services in the Netherlands, three services that cross this tunnel carry bicycles and mopeds.[5] There is a fee for this service and reservation is recommended.

Pedestrians use the pavement where one is available, otherwise they use the same position on the road as the cyclists: on the cycleway or lane if available, otherwise on the road (but in the latter case pedestrians preferably walk on the left, while cyclists go on the right). Roads and tunnels accessible for cyclists are also accessible for pedestrians. Most pedestrian paths are available to cyclists who dismount and walk the bike.

Cycle lanes


Cycle lanes that may be used by motorists as well
Cycle lanes in the Netherlands, as they are in most countries, are situated at the nearside of the road (the right-hand side in the Netherlands). They are marked by either a dashed line or a solid line. Lanes marked by a dashed line may be used by motorists provided that they do not impede cyclists. Those marked with a solid line may not be used by motorists. These solid lines are interrupted on crossings to allow motorists to enter or leave the road. Obviously, parking is not allowed on either type of lane.

Cycle lanes are usually made in red or black concrete. The red color has no legal meaning; the legal status of the lane is determined by the solid or dashed line by which it is separated from the other lane(s).

National guidelines advise a minimum width of 1.25 m for cycle lanes.

When a cycle lane is present on a road, cyclists are obliged to use it. Since 15 december 1999 mopeds are not allowed on cycle lanes.

The average city street in my home town



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:09 AM   #21
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I would take public transport, but a bike is not feasible for me. I'd like to get to work, in a timely manner, not sweaty, and not freezing my ass off.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:11 AM   #22
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...... while you're at it ban all Northerners over the age of 65 from entering the state !
But then how would the state of Florida collect taxes?

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Sometimes I wish I lived in the Mecca that is the Netherlands.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:11 AM   #23
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But then how would the state of Florida collect taxes?
.... from bicycle sales !
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:14 AM   #24
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Sometimes I wish I lived in the Mecca that is the Netherlands.
I've only been to Amsterdam and its very pretty. The language is a little tough to get your head around IMO.
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Old Feb 1, 2013, 11:16 AM   #25
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It's problematic when bicyclists don't respect either car or pedestrian rules. Many of them coast through stop signs. Other than that, not everyone can afford a car, and public transportation is horrendous in much of the US, including many of its larger cities.
.
I agree - though, in my experience it's been the opposite. The cars have been more of a hazard to me than I've been to myself - but I've been riding for a long time, and I understand what I have to do to ensure I'm as safe as possible.

There should be training for both parties.

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...... while you're at it ban all Northerners over the age of 65 from entering the state !
Add state income tax back and they'll all stop coming!
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