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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:01 PM   #76
eric/
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That's all well and good if your gun never leaves your private property, but that's not always the case.
And when it does, there are rules for keeping it in your car.



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And you can also help and care about other people without thinking about your own self interests.
Yup. I donate to charity, because I like helping people, and helping people makes me feel good.



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Shooting at and detonating IEDs to attempt to kill occupying troops isn't substantial evidence?
Are all Iraqis doing that? Do all Iraqis agree with those individual actions?
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:12 PM   #77
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To be honest, I don't care about the morality of the situation. Yes I just said that.

Guy was saving the lives of American troops..thats all I care about. Whether we should, or should not have been there in the first place is another topic entirely and one I am not interested in having as it is not all that relevant to this thread.

Also, if I were living under the shadow of regime ruled by an evil and cruel dictator I would probably welcome the Chinese.
This is the difference between Vietnam vets with PTSD who kill and Iraq Vets with PTSD who kill.

There are fewer vietnam vets who wind up killing americans than there are iraq veterans who wind up killing americans.

Why ? The lack of morality.

A good portion of vietnam vets were drafted. They went to fight because they had to. That or go to canada. This put a sense of morality in the vietnam war.

The war in iraq is completely different. All of the veterans are volunteers. They joined knowing there was a good chance of going to iraq .

I can only surmise that iraq veterans are prone to more violence because they wanted to go to iraq and kill the "enemy". This carries over into civilian life if one has PTSD. A lack of morality.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:17 PM   #78
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... however lets just be blunt. what would you rather have? Dead US soldiers or dead Islamist radicals ? "neither" is not an option.
I believe "neither" is entirely an option. That's why I participated in peace marches before the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq War. We didn't have to resort to invasion and occupation to achieve our goals ... we chose to.

I hope we, as a nation, will make wiser choices in the future.

IMO, "neither" is the best choice of them all.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:17 PM   #79
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This is the difference between Vietnam vets with PTSD who kill and Iraq Vets with PTSD who kill.

There are fewer vietnam vets who wind up killing americans than there are iraq veterans who wind up killing americans.

Why ? The lack of morality.

A good portion of vietnam vets were drafted. They went to fight because they had to. That or go to canada. This put a sense of morality in the vietnam war.

The war in iraq is completely different. All of the veterans are volunteers. They joined knowing there was a good chance of going to iraq .

I can only surmise that iraq veterans are prone to more violence because they wanted to go to iraq and kill the "enemy". This carries over into civilian life if one has PTSD. A lack of morality.

good grief...get your Psych degree from a cracker jax box Dr. Peace?

If you are going to make an analysis like that than how about some numbers, such as the number of Iraq war vets who came back and killed vs the number of Vietnam vets who came back and killed?
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:18 PM   #80
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And when it does, there are rules for keeping it in your car.
Too bad most people don't follow those rules. Way too many irresponsible gun owners in this country.

Even a portion of the guns now illegally owned by "criminals" (as we hear from the gun enthusiasts all the time) were originally legally owned and then stolen because someone was too careless with them.


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Yup. I donate to charity, because I like helping people, and helping people makes me feel good.
It wouldn't make you feel good to do something that could help prevent 20 families having to bury their 6 year olds?

Society has given up many things over the years to help make the public safer and there was never this crazy outcry. Why is there such an infatuation with guns? This debate has been going on for 6 weeks since the Newtown tragedy and I have yet to see one person provide a legitimate reason as to why so many people are so infatuated with having a machine designed to end another living being's life.


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Are all Iraqis doing that? Do all Iraqis agree with those individual actions?
You're missing the point yet making my point at the same time. This is exactly what I was trying to point out. The people have different viewpoints. The point was that your opinion (that the Iraqis this guy killed were the "evil doers") is no better than anyone else's opinion, and that there are plenty of Iraqi's who would believe the exact opposite (that the Iraqis he killed were doing good and that he was the "evil doer".) Your opinion isn't anymore right than theirs just because of the country you live in.


Personally I don't actually believe in half the crap I'm arguing on here, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and point out the flaws in many of these arguments here where people don't think outside of their own bubble.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:18 PM   #81
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I believe "neither" is entirely an option. That's why I participated in peace marches before the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq War. We didn't have to resort to invasion and occupation to achieve our goals ... we chose to.

I hope we, as a nation, will make wiser choices in the future.

IMO, "neither" is the best choice of them all.
neither is a cop out when you are making comments that that basically say that the insurgents were justified in their actions.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:19 PM   #82
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No, that's incorrect. You stated that the Iraqi people all believed the sniper was an evil doer, without any sort of substantial evidence indicating that Iraqi people think any such thing.
Yet you claimed the sniper killed "evil doers" without any sort of substantial evidence indicating that they were "evil".

Pot meet kettle.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:20 PM   #83
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good grief...get your Psych degree from a cracker jax box Dr. Peace?

If you are going to make an analysis like that than how about some numbers, such as the number of Iraq war vets who came back and killed vs the number of Vietnam vets who came back and killed?
See now. I gave an opinion and you the iraq guy shot back with personal hatred.

You are proof enough.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:22 PM   #84
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See now. I gave an opinion and you the iraq guy shot back with personal hatred.

You are proof enough.
not hatred..sarcasm. learn the difference. if anything MR has taught me its that if you are going to post something on here as fact than you better have some figures or references to back it up. If you are going to say something like this:

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This is the difference between Vietnam vets with PTSD who kill and Iraq Vets with PTSD who kill.

There are fewer vietnam vets who wind up killing americans than there are iraq veterans who wind up killing americans.

I can only surmise that iraq veterans are prone to more violence because they wanted to go to iraq and kill the "enemy". This carries over into civilian life if one has PTSD. A lack of morality.
you better have something to back it up with.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:22 PM   #85
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neither is a cop out when you are making comments that that basically say that the insurgents were justified in their actions.
You really are making leaps here.

I have not said the insurgents were justified in their actions.

I have only questioned assigning "evilness" to their intents.

And I've pointed out that if the tables were turned, many Americans would do the same thing that these insurgents were doing.

So IMO, you and eric/ need to think a little more carefully before writing people off as evil.

That is all.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:23 PM   #86
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Too bad most people don't follow those rules. Way too many irresponsible gun owners in this country.
Ok?

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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Even a portion of the guns now illegally owned by "criminals" (as we hear from the gun enthusiasts all the time) were originally legally owned and then stolen because someone was too careless with them.
So.... ban guns because bad people steal them?


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It wouldn't make you feel good to do something that could help prevent 20 families having to bury their 6 year olds?
Sure it would. What should I do that will prevent that?

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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Society has given up many things over the years to help make the public safer and there was never this crazy outcry.
And generally speaking I think that's a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Why is there such an infatuation with guns? This debate has been going on for 6 weeks since the Newtown tragedy and I have yet to see one person provide a legitimate reason as to why so many people are so infatuated with having a machine designed to end another living being's life.
I don't think it's infatuation. It's just that people don't believe that just because some people go out and do something terrible that everybody should have something taken away from them.



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You're missing the point yet making my point at the same time. This is exactly what I was trying to point out. The people have different viewpoints. The point was that your opinion (that the Iraqis this guy killed were the "evil doers") is no better than anyone else's opinion, and that there are plenty of Iraqi's who would believe the exact opposite (that the Iraqis he killed were doing good and that he was the "evil doer".)
Well, yeah, from the United States standpoint all of those individuals were evildoers. I've not stated anything to the contrary. It's only been you who has claimed to speak on behalf of an entire country.

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Personally I don't actually believe in half the crap I'm arguing on here, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and point out the flaws in many of these arguments here where people don't think outside of their own bubble.
I like to argue too. It's fun. And I try to do the same, hopefully encourage people to step outside their normal way of thinking and examine their beliefs.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:23 PM   #87
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See now. I gave an opinion and you the iraq guy shot back with personal hatred.

You are proof enough.
I think it's pretty apparent that this statement:

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There are fewer vietnam vets who wind up killing americans than there are iraq veterans who wind up killing americans.
was not presented as an opinion.

I'd be curious to see a source as well.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:24 PM   #88
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Yet you claimed the sniper killed "evil doers" without any sort of substantial evidence indicating that they were "evil".

Pot meet kettle.
Well they were evil, in the eyes of the United States.

If you want to debate 'evil", just be forewarned, I'm not going to waste my time. Replace it with bad, or whatever else you want.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:25 PM   #89
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Well they were evil, in the eyes of the United States.

If you want to debate 'evil", just be forewarned, I'm not going to waste my time. Replace it with bad, or whatever else you want.
How about replacing it with, "on the other side"?
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:25 PM   #90
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How about replacing it with, "on the other side"?
What difference does it make?
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:26 PM   #91
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What difference does it make?
My description does not include a moral judgement like "evil" or "bad".
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:32 PM   #92
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"Evil doers"?



I think you give the guy too much credit.

Somebody told him, "You shoot this guy over there."

And he did as ordered.
You have no idea. None. Zero.

I'd like to see your oh so simple assessment of combat from a two way range.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:32 PM   #93
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My description does not include a moral judgement like "evil" or "bad".
but what difference does it really make here? I don't think that trying to remove the morality here makes a difference, and I think that the US still has labeled these people bad, certainly bad enough to kill them or have them ordered killed.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:33 PM   #94
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Well they were evil, in the eyes of the United States.
Evil, period.

And cowards.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:35 PM   #95
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So.... ban guns because bad people steal them?
Well, one of the main arguments of the pro-gun people is that if we take away the good guys guns than only the criminals will have guns.

If a portion of the criminals guns are coming from originally-legal sources, than eliminating the legal guns would also eliminate this source for criminals to obtain the guns too.

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Sure it would. What should I do that will prevent that?
Reasonable federal regulations would be a start.

How about outlawing all handguns? The majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns, yet the majority of sport and hunting use for guns can and many times is done with long guns. The hunters and target/sport shooters/people who live in the sticks would still be able to have their rifles yet we would be working to reduce the availability of the weapons which are most used in firearm killings.


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And generally speaking I think that's a bad thing.
That's where you and I differ I guess.

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I don't think it's infatuation. It's just that people don't believe that just because some people go out and do something terrible that everybody should have something taken away from them.
For some people you're probably right.

But it seems like there are some people who actually do have a sick infatuation with guns, and those are the people who you probably wouldn't want owning guns to begin with.


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Well, yeah, from the United States standpoint all of those individuals were evildoers. I've not stated anything to the contrary. It's only been you who has claimed to speak on behalf of an entire country.
Yes, this is the US standpoint. That's what I would expect it to be.

I just don't agree with the insinuation earlier that it's more valid than their viewpoint.

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I like to argue too. It's fun. And I try to do the same, hopefully encourage people to step outside their normal way of thinking and examine their beliefs.
Good. I just hope nobody takes any of this personally.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:39 PM   #96
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So, Mr. LaPierre, I'm sure at the gun range, there were plenty of good guys with a gun. Why didn't they stop a bad guy with a gun?
How about bad guys with no gun?
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:42 PM   #97
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Well, one of the main arguments of the pro-gun people is that if we take away the good guys guns than only the criminals will have guns.

If a portion of the criminals guns are coming from originally-legal sources, than eliminating the legal guns would also eliminate this source for criminals to obtain the guns too.
So what you propose is to eliminate the right of 300+ Americans, to remove guns out of the hands of a few bad people.


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Reasonable federal regulations would be a start.

How about outlawing all handguns? The majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns, yet the majority of sport and hunting use for guns can and many times is done with long guns. The hunters and target/sport shooters/people who live in the sticks would still be able to have their rifles yet we would be working to reduce the availability of the weapons which are most used in firearm killings.
Well, at least here you have a consistent argument, and aren't arbitrarily going after AR-15s and 30 round clips.

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That's where you and I differ I guess.
With freedom comes responsibility, and risk. And those are things I'm willing to endure, in order to live in a free society.


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For some people you're probably right.

But it seems like there are some people who actually do have a sick infatuation with guns, and those are the people who you probably wouldn't want owning guns to begin with.
Well ok, so... take my gun from me? I conceal carry mine, and I target shoot. I'd most likely give somebody my wallet before I shot them, but I would light somebody up if they broke into my apartment. I just don't understand why there is a push to punish a lot of people who really don't ever do anything wrong.



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Yes, this is the US standpoint. That's what I would expect it to be.

I just don't agree with the insinuation earlier that it's more valid than their viewpoint.
Well it's more or less valid to whoever is the viewer. To the USG, those people deserved to die, from the insurgent viewpoint, kill the Americans.


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Good. I just hope nobody takes any of this personally.
I never do. I have a lot of fun discussing topics here over other forums because we're not united by a political affiliation here, but by our enjoyment of Apple products. So that brings a diverse group of people here, and a lot of different opinions. But I'll still argue to the death different talking points.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:44 PM   #98
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not hatred..sarcasm. learn the difference. if anything MR has taught me its that if you are going to post something on here as fact than you better have some figures or references to back it up. If you are going to say something like this:



you better have something to back it up with.
If I knew it was a fact I would link to an article stating so.

Now can you link to a fact that there are more vietnam vets who commit murder than there are iraq vets ?

Also I was speaking about morality. Something you exemplified with your earlier statement.
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:47 PM   #99
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Well, yeah, from the United States standpoint all of those individuals were evildoers. I've not stated anything to the contrary. It's only been you who has claimed to speak on behalf of an entire country.
I see what you did there. It was intentional, right?
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Old Feb 3, 2013, 03:53 PM   #100
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How about outlawing all handguns? The majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns, yet the majority of sport and hunting use for guns can and many times is done with long guns.
That's not strictly true, handguns are used for shooting at the range - and I'm not really sure the UK's handgun ban has really achieved anything.

Far more important is keeping all guns out of the hands of the mentally ill as best as possible.
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