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Old Feb 5, 2013, 11:13 AM   #26
newdeal
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...

totally unrelated but while my Dell server is excellent I have never had a Dell laptop that was even half way decent. Their current notebook designs are terrible clunky, thick, heavy dinosaurs imo. They really need to hire a person to redesign their entire line of notebooks.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 11:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
While it was no secret, since word hit the streets a couple of weeks ago, its still quite shocking to see.

Hopefully they'll turn it around. I hate to see any company fail; We're talking about people's livihoods and their ability to support their families.

From Engadget



I wonder what the terms of the loan are and what's MS' expectation. Rumors were swirling that Dell was going to push harder into the Linux sector perhaps now they'll focus more attention on windows since MS lent them a boat load of money.
I don't get the MS angle either, Xbox aside, Microsofts attempts at hardware have been less than awe inspiring....Perhaps they feel that riding Dell will help to reinvigorate them in some way, but I'd sure like to see the terms of that loan too.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 11:18 AM   #28
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I didn't even know Dell was doing that bad... You see Dell's everywhere. A $2 billion loan says something though.....
It's not about revenue, it's about profits.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 11:19 AM   #29
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I don't get the MS angle either, Xbox aside, Microsofts attempts at hardware have been less than awe inspiring....Perhaps they feel that riding Dell will help to reinvigorate them in some way, but I'd sure like to see the terms of that loan too.
I think this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
Rumors were swirling that Dell was going to push harder into the Linux sector perhaps now they'll focus more attention on windows since MS lent them a boat load of money.
has a lot to do with it. Losing the locked in sales of OSes to the #3 PC manufacturer would be a big blow that even MS could not absorb so easily.

IIRC it has happened before. At one point Dell was pushing Linux on their netbooks and MS came in with a lower license cost.

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Old Feb 5, 2013, 11:20 AM   #30
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Steve Jobs beat Michael Dell from the grave. I am so happy on so many levels, one of them being I hate Michael Dell and his right-wing politics.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bantz View Post
I love my Dell laptop, i7 15inch and amd graphics for about 400
The Inspiron 15z Ultrabook + Touch, which is the model the closest to the MacBook Pro 15" in terms of hardware, costs about $1400...
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:03 PM   #32
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It is amusing to see Dell giving the money back to the shareholders because of his comments regarding Apple so many years ago.

However, right now the analysts are so down on Apple, it would be nice for them to be free of the analysts. Imagine for a minute that Apple averaged 25% worse than last year in profits over the next 10 years. Mind you they are projected to have a 71% increase in profits in the next 3 to 5 years.

Apple made over $40B last year. Their current market cap is $430B and analysts are still dumping on them. They have $130B in cash. At a rate of $30B profit per year, Apple would have enough cash in ten years to buy back all their shares at today's market cap.

The immediate response to something like that is "well, of course Apple's market cap will go up as their cash reserves increase". I agree with that, but one has to wonder why analysts are dumping on Apple and screaming "sell sell sell" when current profit projections have them making enough cash to buy back the most expensive and profitable company in the world in ten years' time.

On another note.... Amazon has made $5B profit in total in the last ten years. They've reported losses or near-zero profits in the past several quarters. Current 3-5 year outlook projects a 4% decline in profits. Assuming they doubled their profits from their first decade in their second decade they would make only $10B. Their market cap is currently 27% of Apple's ($118B versus $430B), yet even if they defied projections and doubled their profitability in ten years they would only make about 3% of the profit that Apple would make in the next decade if Apple experienced a 25% decline rather than the 71% projected increase.

Would you buy a money-printing machine that prints $1 per year for $118 or would you rather have one that prints $30 per year for $430? Think about that.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by DavidLeblond View Post
I remember when Dell use to make quality PCs.
I wonder when that was - it must have passed me unnoticed.

I remember the amalgamation of PriceWaterhouse and Coopers and Lybrand into PWC. One was using IBM, the other Dell computers. I also know the figures of the repairs Dell had to do and the figures of IBM repairs and it did not put Dell in a favorable light.

Having said this - I am quite happy with my two Dell monitors but they are the high end ones. (U2412M and U2713H)
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:41 PM   #34
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...... hahahaha....... poor Dell, was NOT that good to begin with. Oh well, their glory days are over.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:48 PM   #35
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Would you buy a money-printing machine that prints $1 per year for $118 or would you rather have one that prints $30 per year for $430?
Obviously you did not get burned in the dot com crash. Think about it.

Think about the peak and subsequent decline of the likes of Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, Ericson, RIM amongst others. Have heard the same tribulations about those firms as that I have heard about Apple.

When has a half decent retailer gone broke?
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 12:52 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Bantz View Post
Mass mail info that Dell sell more PCs then Apple?
Making Dell a small fraction of Apple's total profit.

Michael didn't totally shut Dell down, he just managed it into something smaller and less profitable before giving what's left back to the shareholders. Call it a partial shutdown. (What percent?)
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:16 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by applesith View Post
I guess Dell didn't get the memo about the Post-PC era.
There is no such thing as the post-PC era. Anyone who believes that doesn't understand computers. It's not that people don't want or need computers but rather the fact that computing power has increased to the point where upgrade cycles are extremely long now. That is the reason for the sales slump the market has been in.

Gone are the days where upgrades provide dramatic performance improvements. The PC boom was happening when the internet was the driving force for those upgrades. An 5-8 year old computer is enough for what the vast majority of people do with one today.

These incremental upgrades are going to catch up to the phone and tablet market too in a few years and people are not going to need them as often. A few years after that the second hand market will be flooded with completely capable cheap devices and those markets will slump as well.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:16 PM   #38
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He's half-consistent with his own advice, at least. Now all he has to do to get full marks is to shut down his company.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:22 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by MJL View Post
I wonder when that was - it must have passed me unnoticed.

I remember the amalgamation of PriceWaterhouse and Coopers and Lybrand into PWC. One was using IBM, the other Dell computers. I also know the figures of the repairs Dell had to do and the figures of IBM repairs and it did not put Dell in a favorable light.

Having said this - I am quite happy with my two Dell monitors but they are the high end ones. (U2412M and U2713H)
I had a beige Dell something or other... it was a Pentium II. That lasted forever. Was the last Dell I've ever used that lived past a year old.

I also have a Dell monitor at home. No problems with it.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:27 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by MJL View Post

Think about the peak and subsequent decline of the likes of Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, Ericson, RIM amongst others. Have heard the same tribulations about those firms as that I have heard about Apple.
I wouldn't rank MS in the same category as those other companies. They took a hit after the dot-com bust, but stayed almost perfectly stable and healthy from that point on.

If anything, I'd say Apple will more likely follow their trend moreso than RIM and the rest. They'll eventually get to a point where their stocks will take a good hit, but then plateau out with a slight upwards increase for the next 10-15 years.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:28 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by balamw View Post
Losing the locked in sales of OSes to the #3 PC manufacturer would be a big blow that even MS could not absorb so easily.
I think the number of PCs sold is quite independent of what any individual manufacturer does. If Dell stopped selling PCs today, all the others would sell more PCs. Very few people would not buy a PC because Dell stopped selling. If Dell stopped buying Windows licenses, the other manufacturers would buy more licenses.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:29 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by basesloaded190 View Post
They are going private, not out of business.

Oh how the mighty have fallen

Yea, and if you think public owned companies are not a picnic, try one that gets raped by private equity ownership. SilverLake Partners ain't the Boy Scouts and will turn Dell upside down, shake the $$ out of its pockets, install every efficiency that does or does not make sense and scoop a big chunk of change at the end when they spin Dell out/sell/discard it as half the organization they once were.

Been there, done that, lived through it. Shi*t sandies for lunch boys and for many months to come. If you work there, exit, go quickly. Life as you know it is.....OVER!

The Dell ship has sailed and their train has left the station never ever to return!
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:30 PM   #43
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So Michael is kind of doing what he suggested Apple do years ago eh ?
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:31 PM   #44
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Maybe they'll be the premier "Microsoft Signature" company. They'll sell their computers directly through their online store and the Microsoft store...all without the crap/bloat-ware loaded on it. Just pure Windows. No trial version of this or that.

Microsoft already does this with certain configurations of computers. Maybe Dell will enhance that. Dunno.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by slffl View Post
Steve Jobs beat Michael Dell from the grave. I am so happy on so many levels, one of them being I hate Michael Dell and his right-wing politics.
How dare he have an opinion differing from your own!
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:33 PM   #46
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I think the number of PCs sold is quite independent of what any individual manufacturer does. If Dell stopped selling PCs today, all the others would sell more PCs. Very few people would not buy a PC because Dell stopped selling. If Dell stopped buying Windows licenses, the other manufacturers would buy more licenses.
I think you missed the point. It's about Dell continuing to actively sell PC hardware, but promoting them as Linux boxes and not including an OEM Windows license by default.

e.g. Dell's entire lineup of lower end machines become Chromebooks or Ubuntu boxes.

Right now, Chromebooks are manufactured and promoted by lower tier hardware manufacturers like Acer and Samsung. If HP, Lenovo or Dell jump on the bandwagon it's not good for Microsoft.

EDIT: Uh-oh http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerkay...to-look-legit/

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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:37 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by balamw View Post
I think you missed the point. It's about Dell continuing to actively sell PC hardware, but promoting them as Linux boxes and not including an OEM Windows license by default.

e.g. Dell's entire lineup of lower end machines become Chromebooks or Ubuntu boxes.

Right now, Chromebooks are manufactured promoted by lower tier manufacturers like Acer and Samsung. If HP, Lenovo or Dell jump on the bandwagon it's not good for Microsoft.

EDIT: Uh-oh http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerkay...to-look-legit/

B
Yep. That's why MS gave them a loan so they could push linux adaption. So you missed the point. Might want to read the post he replayed to as well and comprehend the conversation they are having.
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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:40 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by MJL View Post
Obviously you did not get burned in the dot com crash. Think about it.

Think about the peak and subsequent decline of the likes of Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, Ericson, RIM amongst others. Have heard the same tribulations about those firms as that I have heard about Apple.

When has a half decent retailer gone broke?
Woolworth's went out of business. That was unimaginable at a time.


Also the dot-com crash happened when the dot-com bubble burst.
The situations are not the same. We are not in a Hardware bubble.
In the dotcom bubble, lots of companies were (supposedly) making a lot of money and projecting to make even more. Therefore "analysts" said they worth a lot of money.
As soon as people realized there wasn't really any money being made, everyone dumped their stock.

If every PC / phone / tablet maker was projecting exceptional growth and (supposedly) going to be making a lot of money, then the situations would be comparable.
But Apple seems to be succeeding where many others are not. This doesn't look like a bubble to me.

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Old Feb 5, 2013, 01:47 PM   #49
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Yep. That's why MS gave them a loan so they could push linux adaption.


I implied as was done earlier in the thread that part of the reason MS may have loaned Dell money was so they would NOT push linux on their hardware.

gnasher apparently interpreted this as Dell stopping selling PCs, which is NOT what maflynn or I were talking about.

EDIT: Being very explicit. Stopping this: Dell releases powerful, well-supported Linux Ultrabook from becoming mainstream is probably worth a few bucks to Microsoft.

And the post he quoted and replied to was mine.

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Old Feb 5, 2013, 02:02 PM   #50
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...
I wonder what the terms of the loan are and what's MS' expectation.
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Originally Posted by Megagator View Post
I wonder what Microsoft wants with Dell.... Maybe finally get into the computer hardware business and sell 100% Windows computers?
Microsoft primarily wants what Silverlake wants. A return on the investment. This is a reasonable place to put a relatively small subset of Microsoft cash position. [ An infinitely better place than buying Yahoo would have been at that inflated price. ] Microsoft has about $60B to invest and more cash coming in.


The core question should more so be what does Silverlake want. What is their liquidity event expectations. If they are looking to recoup their money "fast" (2-3 years ) then that is likely trouble. If it is a long term strategic move then not.

If Dell is allowed to replow almost all the profits back into either current debt retirement and/or realigning the business to take advantage of growing , rather than shrinking, sectors then this can pay off for all involved in 3-6 years quite well.

If it is the unimaginative "private equity" pump and dump. Then Dell is dead zombie walking. Given Michael Dell has a 15+% interest in the whole thing that isn't the most likely path. It is doubtful he is out to demolish the Company with his name on it.

Microsoft's terms are probably along the line that the others (Sliverlake or Dell co. ) can buy them out at some nominal rate early if Microsoft needs to cash out early. Incrementally they'll get bought out over time.

It is doubtful this is about "making" Dell do more or less Linux stuff. Dell is heavily positioned toward making a dent in the server market. That means Linux (along with Windows) or it means losing. I don't think Microsoft is out to loose $2B.

Last edited by deconstruct60; Feb 5, 2013 at 02:16 PM.
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