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Old Feb 7, 2013, 07:52 AM   #51
yg17
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
I'm not saying do it tomorrow, but we're moving into a new, digital age. And we need to adjust. Any joe schmo can buy a tablet computer for $79 at Big Lots, or on their smart phone, or use their local library and access email. For super important stuff, sure, pay a high fee,and with volume the cost to send a letter through FedEx or UPS will go down. Still be somewhat expensive, sure, but that's the whole point.
You don't seem to get it. There are plenty of Joe Schmos who cannot afford a $79 tablet at Big Lots and certainly can't afford a smart phone, and if they're elderly or disabled, may have difficulty getting to a public library. For them, the USPS is their connection to the outside world.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 07:57 AM   #52
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You don't seem to get it. There are plenty of Joe Schmos who cannot afford a $79 tablet at Big Lots and certainly can't afford a smart phone, and if they're elderly or disabled, may have difficulty getting to a public library. For them, the USPS is their connection to the outside world.
No, I do get it. I disagree. As I pointed out, this is a gradual shift. Not overnight *bam you don't get mail anymore*.

At some point it will become so inefficient that it will have to be disbanded. Trying to hold back progress because you're afraid that a tiny minority will refuse to adopt isn't a good policy.

What mail do these people get that they 100% can only have it delivered by mail, and can't be replaced by email?

Last edited by eric/; Feb 7, 2013 at 08:15 AM.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 07:59 AM   #53
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You don't seem to get it. There are plenty of Joe Schmos who cannot afford a $79 tablet at Big Lots and certainly can't afford a smart phone, and if they're elderly or disabled, may have difficulty getting to a public library. For them, the USPS is their connection to the outside world.
Not to mention the (mostly older folks) who just don't "get" e-mail/PDFs/...

FWIW it would probably be a whole lot cheaper for the government to issue a Kindle-like device to every household and pay for the device and service.

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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:13 AM   #54
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My point was, the USPS would be forced to run more efficiently in the free market. The government has run it into the ground.
Actually, I'm reasonably certain the USPS was doing fairly well before the government required them to fund pensions 70 years into the future.

Not to mention that privatizing the USPS would be unconstitutional.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:16 AM   #55
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Not to mention that privatizing the USPS would be unconstitutional.
Well the Constitution can be changed.
USPS could evolve into USPS but digital.
And I don't think privatizing it is the answer, removing it is what I advocate.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:36 AM   #56
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Well the Constitution can be changed.
Yeah.

And while we're at it we can get rid of the 2nd Amendment.

Be careful what you wish for.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:55 AM   #57
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Yeah, we need to privatize the post office. How much do you think a letter will cost to mail if privatized? Hint, take a look at FedEx or UPS rates for letters.

The USPS uses no tax money. It is losing money because Congress mandated it. The USPS delivers to any address in the US. Do you think private companies would do that? At a reasonable rate? Here's a hint, FedEx and UPS use the USPS for a **** load of their shipments. 30.4% of FedEx Ground shipments are delivered by the USPS with 8.4% of FedEx Ground revenue is generated by shipments delivered by the Postal Service. UPS also uses them but I can't find any numbers at the moment.

Really good article on USPS.

http://www.esquire.com/features/post...s-trouble-0213
I'm sorry THEY are using tax payer money.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/17/news...mit/index.html

Unfortunately because they are a government agency there is to much red tape for them to change things to react to market conditions. It takes an act of God to cut jobs, close post offices, increase rates, change mail delivery days and so on.

Just look at how much trouble they are going through to just stop delivering mail on Saturday. And they don't even have permission to do that yet so they are still going to deliver it to post offices and not homes to get around it.

Unless they can be spun off to their own entity where they don't have to rely on Congress to make changes to their business operations they will continue to fail.

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Originally Posted by yg17 View Post
You don't seem to get it. There are plenty of Joe Schmos who cannot afford a $79 tablet at Big Lots and certainly can't afford a smart phone, and if they're elderly or disabled, may have difficulty getting to a public library. For them, the USPS is their connection to the outside world.
Just think if the government was running Blockbuster. There would still be Blockbuster stores on every other corner to serve the 4 people a month that don't have internet or the ability to use a Redbox.

Unless the post office can ween itself from congress to make its changes as needed for the current market conditions it will continue to be an inefficient money pit.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:57 AM   #58
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Yeah.

And while we're at it we can get rid of the 2nd Amendment.

Be careful what you wish for.
I don't care about the 2nd amendment. Literally couldn't possible care any less about it than I do now. You could take it, and the whole Constitution and burn it for all I care.

So let's not drag this off topic.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:05 AM   #59
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Congress, in all of their infinite wisdom, forced USPS to fund their pensions 70 years ahead. So right now, they're paying for the pensions of employees who haven't been born yet. That's why they're struggling.
This wasn't wisdom, this was the GOP taking huge amounts of money from UPS and FedEx, not to mention hating unions. This was nothing more than an effort to force a perfectly reasonable government program into the hands of people who could then try to profit at your expense.

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I'm sad to see the Post Office, an institution older than our Constitution, get gutted the way it has mostly for the purpose of busting unions.

Damn Bush and all his right-wing cronies who siphoned money out of the Post Office by requiring it to pay $5 billion per year into a pension plan for people who aren't even born yet.... seriously?
Another post that needed reposting. This is a giant power grab. Nothing more.

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Of course not. However, it shouldn't take 6 months to implement a one day stoppage.
Yes, so why does private industry take so much longer to release a new phone, a new car, a new anything? You can't compare the efficiencies of government to the profit motive of big business, big business will lose every time.

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Then ups is expensive for doing the same thing and FedEx is GROSSLY expensive for the exact same thing.

I don't see how they stay in business.
PROFIT! That's why Republicans are trying to destroy the USPS. They want to force you to pay more so that their friends can make more.

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Like many gov't enterprises, the US Postal Service is very inefficient but unlike regular free-market businesses, it's not allowed to fail. This long overdue measure along with the postage hike will only slow the sinking of the titanic which should have been privatized years ago.
The USPS is incredibly efficient. Far more than any private alternative. You can't prove me wrong, because there is no such proof.

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Originally Posted by yg17 View Post
Inefficient? Who the hell else is going to take a letter across the country in under a week for 46 cents?

Again, the only reason the USPS is in this mess is because Congress forced them to fund retirement pensions for employees who aren't born yet.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

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My point was, the USPS would be forced to run more efficiently in the free market. The government has run it into the ground.
No, the GOP forced it into the ground by forcing it to prepay pensions that no private business has to. FedEx and UPS would both already be out of business if they were forced to deal with the same ridiculous requirements.

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Yeah.

And while we're at it we can get rid of the 2nd Amendment.

Be careful what you wish for.
Please, can we? Can we replace the 2nd amendment with some reasonable gun laws?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:07 AM   #60
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The USPS is incredibly efficient. Far more than any private alternative. You can't prove me wrong, because there is no such proof.
That's called an Argument from Ignorance
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:10 AM   #61
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That's called an Argument from Ignorance
Really, because the USPS has been in business since the inception of our country, and has done a business that no private industry has been able to usurp for less money than anyone else can manage.

That's called an argument from reality.

Try again.

(edit) Speaking of which, why is there no "private insurance provider" who can do a better, more cost efficient, more successful health insurance program for a massive group of seniors who need health insurance? Why? Because government is more efficient. Right?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:12 AM   #62
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USPS is still cheaper to ship small packages than UPS (verified last week). Small package 1Lb, 2 Oz- USPS $8, UPS $11. I want to keep them around. If they save $2 Billion by cutting Sat deliveries, so be it.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:24 AM   #63
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I'm sorry THEY are using tax payer money.
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The [U.S. Postal Service] does actually have a detailed plan for becoming fully self-reliant over the next few years. Abolishing Saturday delivery is just one small part of that plan; all of it, by law, requires Congressional buy-in. Ö The big problem is simple, but huge: Congress isnít playing along, and instead is just making matters worse, unhelpfully micromanaging everything from postage rates to delivery schedules to health-care contributions. Ö
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Under the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act, Congress has for years forced the USPS to pre-fund 75 yearsí worth of pensions for its employees, a requirement not made of any other public or private institution. That means that the Postal Service is footing the bill for employees it hasnít even hired yet.
Just another "crisis" caused by our Congress. I bet if you look into it, the Congressmen who supported this receive big contributions from UPS, FedEx, DHL etc.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:27 AM   #64
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USPS is still cheaper to ship small packages than UPS (verified last week). Small package 1Lb, 2 Oz- USPS $8, UPS $11. I want to keep them around. If they save $2 Billion by cutting Sat deliveries, so be it.
Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, FedEx and UPS both are using USPS for "last mile" service. Many of my packages delivered with the private companies make a pit stop at the PO.

Getting rid of the USPS just means that UPS and FedEx will end up charging more or reducing services.

B
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:35 AM   #65
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Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, FedEx and UPS both are using USPS for "last mile" service. Many of my packages delivered with the private companies make a pit stop at the PO.

Getting rid of the USPS just means that UPS and FedEx will end up charging more or reducing services.

B
I think we should get rid of those services all together.

And if we're subsidizing the USPS for those services, it's not really fair to try and make that argument. I

f it's able to operate and turn a profit, than surely UPS and FedEx would be able to do so also in it's place. The government is notoriously inefficient and not as cost effective as companies are, that's just the nature of the beast. A good example is as rdowns pointed out, USPS having to fund pensions for the next 75 years. Private companies don't get congressional mandates like that.

I just don't buy the argument that because USPS has existing infrastructure and deals with companies, that those companies couldn't possibly do what USPS does cheaper.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:39 AM   #66
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I just don't buy the argument that because USPS has existing infrastructure and deals with companies, that those companies couldn't possibly do what USPS does cheaper.
Then why aren't they offering services at or below USPS' cost? Why do UPS and FedEx use the USPS to deliver some of their packages? The only logical answer, USPS is cheaper than expanding their infrastructure.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:42 AM   #67
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Just another "crisis" caused by our Congress. I bet if you look into it, the Congressmen who supported this receive big contributions from UPS, FedEx, DHL etc.
No, I call BS. This isn't a problem caused by Congress, but by a very specific subset of Congress. Republicans.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:42 AM   #68
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Then why aren't they offering services at or below USPS' cost? Why do UPS and FedEx use the USPS to deliver some of their packages? The only logical answer, USPS is cheaper than expanding their infrastructure.
So because it's cheaper right now for them to pay USPS for a few services, we shouldn't get rid of the USPS?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:47 AM   #69
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I just don't buy the argument that because USPS has existing infrastructure and deals with companies, that those companies couldn't possibly do what USPS does cheaper.
If they could do it cheaper, why would they choose to pay more by subcontracting to USPS in the first place? They do it because it makes economic sense to do so: e.g. http://www.minyanville.com/business-.../2012/id/42951

IMO this is just another example of Starve the Beast, artificially creating a crisis to support politically motivated budget cuts.

B
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:52 AM   #70
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If they could do it cheaper, why would they choose to pay more by subcontracting to USPS in the first place? They do it because it makes economic sense to do so: e.g. http://www.minyanville.com/business-.../2012/id/42951
right, that's how it is. It doesn't make sense right now for them to change their business model because it's predicated by the existence of the USPS. If it did change, they would have to change and evolve with it. Instead of relying on the USPS to deliver their last mile stuff, they would purchase or build infrastructure to make such deliveries, and then the two (maybe a new player as well) would compete to reduce prices.

I'm not arguing that they don't use the USPS or that it's cost effective for those companies to use it.

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IMO this is just another example of Starve the Beast, artificially creating a crisis to support politically motivated budget cuts.

B
I'm not advocating that. I'm proposing we gradually reduce or eliminate paper mail completely, then we could eliminate the USPS, or change it's mission.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:56 AM   #71
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I'm not advocating that. I'm proposing we gradually reduce or eliminate paper mail completely, then we could eliminate the USPS, or change it's mission.
I'm saying that's what congress has already done to the USPS. This mandate to prefund pensions is just a way of starving the besat.

B
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:57 AM   #72
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Don't care really. All the good ***** gets delivered to me via UPS/FedEx anyways.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 10:01 AM   #73
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I'm saying that's what congress has already done to the USPS. This mandate to prefund pensions is just a way of starving the besat.

B
Oh. Yeah that's bad. I agree.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 10:05 AM   #74
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Don't care really. All the good ***** gets delivered to me via UPS/FedEx anyways.
You do realize you pay a premium for that... You could get the same goods for less if they used the USPS.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 10:16 AM   #75
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No, I call BS. This isn't a problem caused by Congress, but by a very specific subset of Congress. Republicans.

Yes mcrain, the Democrats are ****ing saints. Those damn Republicans screw everything up on their own.


The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act passed the House by a voice vote and unanimous consent in the Senate.
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