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Old Feb 7, 2013, 03:52 AM   #126
miniroll32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
iPad wasn't designed with general computing in mind.
Oh really? Then what is 'general computing' besides every day tasks?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 04:08 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
Given that many hardware companies to do not release Linux drivers, it most certainly can be a lot harder to get things working.
There's a huge quantity of very well supported hardware that hasn't had a manufacturer supply a single line of code for... I'm sure you've used PCs for a fair while and understand that driver quality makes or breaks devices.

It's not harder to get things working. As an average user: You switch it on, your distro boots a linux kernel, the linux kernel loads all of the drivers for you.
If something doesn't work you swear at the manufacturer for not releasing specs, deal with the fact it doesn't work and tell yourself off for not checking before buying.

Clicking around the internet downloading random drivers and applications is what the slightly more computer literate would do (which is wrong), my mum wouldn't!

You shouldn't have mentioned drivers, you should have mentioned SecureBoot
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 05:04 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by VoR View Post
There's a huge quantity of very well supported hardware that hasn't had a manufacturer supply a single line of code for... I'm sure you've used PCs for a fair while and understand that driver quality makes or breaks devices.
Yep, I realise this but your talking about brand new hardware which may or may not be supported.

Linux distribution support for laptops can be a bit hit and miss even when we're talking about more established hardware

Quote:
It's not harder to get things working. As an average user: You switch it on, your distro boots a linux kernel, the linux kernel loads all of the drivers for you.
If something doesn't work you swear at the manufacturer for not releasing specs, deal with the fact it doesn't work and tell yourself off for not checking before buying.
You can also check the OEMs site for whatever driver you might need for a given component (rather than the laptop maker) or if an open source one exists, start compiling kernel modules.

----------

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Originally Posted by miniroll32 View Post
Oh really? Then what is 'general computing' besides every day tasks?
Could I use an iPad as a primary work computer? No. Am I going to be typing my thesis on it? no. Am I going to be doing software development on it? no. Is the iPad alone going to meet my data storage needs? No. Am I going to do anything more than very basic photo editing on it? no. Can it interoperate with other computer systems to the degree that I need it to? No.

The iPad is very good at doing a fairly narrow set of tasks but are you seriously claiming it has the same level of utility as a PC?

Are you just arguing for the sake of sport or do you honestly believe that?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 05:38 AM   #129
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:03 AM   #130
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This is one of those silly arguments.

A Personal Computer is a computer (any device that runs code - essentially a big counting machine) used and owned typically by one person or a family unit as opposed to a mainframe, a minicomputer or a supercomputer.

A PC is also distinct from specialist devices like a games console or the computer that monitors your car engine in that it is designed and sold as a general computing device.

Is the iPad typically owned and used by an individual or family unit? Yep. Is it designed to be used for general computing...? Yes again, but this is the more nuanced part of the argument.

What is "general computing"? I would argue that this does not require the ability to write code since about 99% of people who a PC wouldn't have the faintest clue how to do that or any desire to for that matter. General computing is exactly that - general. An iPad is not sold as a specialist device like an XBOX is sold as an entertainment device and a Kindle is sold as a reading device (a kindle is a computer too, remember). It is deliberately sold as a device for a broad range of computing purposes including, but not limited to, web browsing, email, social media, creation of written content, video editing, music, photo editing, playing games, etc.. It can be used, to varying degrees of success, for practically everything that the vast majority of people would use a traditional laptop or desktop computer for.

Is it as good for typing documents as a laptop? No. But then you could say the same about a laptop for creating spreadsheets - nothing compares to a big desktop display for spreadsheets! The question is not how well it does these things but rather if it is able to do these things reasonably well because it is designed to be used as such. I am sure I could run a web browser through the on-board computer in my car if I was clever enough but that would not turn it into a PC.

Just as a Gameboy is a games console but is far more limited than a PS3, an iPad is a personal computer even if it is more limited than a full blown workstation. An iPad is a tablet PC. A Macbook is a laptop PC and an iMac is a desktop PC. It really isn't that complicated.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:20 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by CShort View Post
If you are going to combine Apples iPad with desktops then you better combine the XBox too and all other gaming machines.
The iPad doesn't compare to a fully featured desktop operating system as much as a gaming console/device which also has web, email, etc. does.

Come back with meaningful stats. next time.
the XBox isn't cannibalizing the PC.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:26 AM   #132
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AdWords

I heard that the new AdWords (not rolled out yet in my country) classifieds tablets in the same group as desktops... Before it was together with smartphones... So yes, at least from a marketer's point of view tablets should be considered pcs... They are in the same market. I have opted for iPad as my primary personal device, and I guess my second best choice would be an Air... Not Xbox or a phone... I consider myself experienced mainstream user...
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:50 AM   #133
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Here's a personal stat - I'm a business owner (frozen yogurt shop) and for 5 years we have used an HP desktop computer as our POS (connected to a touchscreen monito, cash drawer and receipt printer). I'm replacing the HP desktop computer with an iPad 2. It will run my POS and do everything else that I've needed a computer for (web browser, docs, etc). So, the iPad, in my case, is certainly filling the shoes of a "computer."
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 07:29 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
I will say that if I didn't have the bluetooth keyboard, I'd probably be much more guarded with my praise. Having an actual physical keyboard right in front of you does make it a much, much more useful tool. My experiences with Pages while sitting my iPad in portrait, plus seeing people do actual webpage work in Diet Coda is one of the major reasons why I'd class it as an actual PC (or PC-Lite since my big compromise a few posts back).

But if Apple didn't give us that choice, and we were forced to use the onscreen keyboard for everything? Nuh uh. I'd call it a straight up content consumption device, and nothing more.
Yeah I guess that is fair point. The onscreen keyboard is a major productivity killer. Then again bringing an actual keyboard defies the purpose of a ultra light form factor. If that was me .. I would have bought an MBA I guess.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:36 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Zunjine View Post
This is one of those silly arguments.

A Personal Computer is a computer (any device that runs code - essentially a big counting machine) used and owned typically by one person or a family unit as opposed to a mainframe, a minicomputer or a supercomputer.

A PC is also distinct from specialist devices like a games console or the computer that monitors your car engine in that it is designed and sold as a general computing device.

Is the iPad typically owned and used by an individual or family unit? Yep. Is it designed to be used for general computing...? Yes again, but this is the more nuanced part of the argument.

What is "general computing"? I would argue that this does not require the ability to write code since about 99% of people who a PC wouldn't have the faintest clue how to do that or any desire to for that matter. General computing is exactly that - general. An iPad is not sold as a specialist device like an XBOX is sold as an entertainment device and a Kindle is sold as a reading device (a kindle is a computer too, remember). It is deliberately sold as a device for a broad range of computing purposes including, but not limited to, web browsing, email, social media, creation of written content, video editing, music, photo editing, playing games, etc.. It can be used, to varying degrees of success, for practically everything that the vast majority of people would use a traditional laptop or desktop computer for.

Is it as good for typing documents as a laptop? No. But then you could say the same about a laptop for creating spreadsheets - nothing compares to a big desktop display for spreadsheets! The question is not how well it does these things but rather if it is able to do these things reasonably well because it is designed to be used as such. I am sure I could run a web browser through the on-board computer in my car if I was clever enough but that would not turn it into a PC.

Just as a Gameboy is a games console but is far more limited than a PS3, an iPad is a personal computer even if it is more limited than a full blown workstation. An iPad is a tablet PC. A Macbook is a laptop PC and an iMac is a desktop PC. It really isn't that complicated.
So well put.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:50 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by 2IS View Post
Nope, can't do that, but it has a computer and it's personal. Those were the criteria were they not? What makes a PC a PC? Your definition? His? Apples? because non are the same.

Apple calls the iPad a "post PC" device, so by definition, the inventors of this product are not defining it as a PC.

You say anything that can open spread sheets and pictures. So my iPod is a PC according to you

The other guy said anything with a computer that is personal is a PC. All the examples I provided meet that criteria.
Perhaps you don't understand the difference between 'is' and 'has'. A car has a computer, but a car is not a computer. An iPad does not have a computer, an iPad is a computer. A car is no more a computer, than a car is an axle, tire, engine, or gas tank.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
iPad wasn't designed with general computing in mind.
How do you figure? An iPad is capable of running all the same sorts of software as a desktop 'PC'. If the iPad wasn't "designed with general computing in mind", then it sounds like *no* computer is.

----------

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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
You can't even program for the iPad on the iPad-- you need a real PC for that. It's not self-sufficient.
Codea. Look it up. You *can* code for the iPad on the iPad.

Of course, given that the *vast* majority of PC users couldn't code for their PC *on* their PC if their lives depended on it, I don't see that as being a particularly good definition unless you think that the *vast* majority of bog-standard Windows boxes aren't PCs.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 08:54 AM   #137
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I really wish someone would popularise a term for digital devices that we all can use, so we don't end up with pages and pages of arguments over how to categorise a "PC".

To me, that's just a tangent from the key points of the story: Apple's doing quite well: Mac sales doing good and iPad sales excellent. And that tablet devices are overtaking 'conventional' devices in popularity.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:01 AM   #138
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In that case, the iPad which cannot play Flash, cannot connect to USB devices, cannot open more than one app at a time, cannot modify or even view the file system, cannot be used to write apps for itself, cannot run powerful pro-level apps, and cannot have apps that modify the system in any way, cannot be considered a PC.
You have a list of arbitrary features, none of which have *ever* been included in the traditional definition of a PC. To top it off, most of them are flat out *incorrect*.

My lone desktop Windows box can't play Flash, does that mean it's not a PC? The very first IBM PC couldn't play Flash, does that mean it wasn't a PC?

My iPad can, has, and does connect to USB devices.

An iPad actually *does* run multiple apps at the same time. It is limited to one user-facing app at a time, but so were early PCs, and *they* were certainly PCs. Heck, they were actually limited to one app at a time *period*, and they were still PCs.

An iPad most certainly *can* modify or view its file system. If it couldn't, you wouldn't be able to install apps, or save files locally.

An iPad *can* be used to write apps for itself locally (see Codea).

Define 'powerful pro-level apps'. If you're talking about CPU/GPU power, then a 5 year-old PC suddenly becomes 'not a PC' because the new 'powerful pro-level apps' take more resources than it can deliver.

Also define 'modify the system'. I can't even begin to figure out what you mean by that.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:08 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by MacRumors View Post
Whether or not iPads and other tablets should be counted as PCs has become a vigorous debate as observers take differing views on how "personal computers" should be defined. But with Apple making the iPad "PC Free" by eliminating the need to sync to a computer via iTunes and increasing numbers of consumers relying on their iPads for everyday computer functionalities such as browsing, email and music, as well as a broad array of apps, lines between the two types of devices are becoming increasingly blurred.
It's simple. An iPad is a portable, touch screen computer that is cheap enough and user friendly for the average person and does not need another computer to activate it (cut the cord). This therefore makes the iPad a personal computer. But I will say it's not a PC in the old traditional sense. it's I believe what the PC market is slowly evolving to in the future.

To me, there are desktops, notebooks, tablets etc etc. All different sub categories of the larger main category that is PC.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:11 AM   #140
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Apple is doomed, doomed, doomed

They're doomed with numbers like that. Particularly when you consider the number of 'proper' PCs running old OS's like XP, Vista, Win 7. Just who uses those things?

Apple's the leading Post-PC company offering products that work well for years. Putting the customer first -- I sure can understand why the union-bashers on Wall Street can't understand why that works. 'Course the naysayers will say nay. But I just think they should stop breeding.

Apple is doomed, doomed, doomed. It's just it hasn't stopped climbing yet.

Ha Ha.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 09:12 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
Could I use an iPad as a primary work computer? No.
Others can and do actually. Not every device is suited to be a main PC for everyone.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 10:15 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Zunjine View Post
A Personal Computer is a computer (any device that runs code - essentially a big counting machine) used and owned typically by one person or a family unit as opposed to a mainframe, a minicomputer or a supercomputer.
I agree with you there. BUT, one needs to be able to a) PRODUCE the code on the device itself and b) not have arbitrary restrictions placed upon that code.

Quote:
What is "general computing"? I would argue that this does not require the ability to write code since about 99% of people who a PC wouldn't have the faintest clue how to do that or any desire to for that matter.
Disagreed. It doesn't matter if it's just 1% of the population who actually writes code. Without them, and without their ability to write code, devices such as the iPad and even PCs would be useless to the other 99%. And the fact of the matter is, you can't publish code on an iPad, so without a PC, the iPad would be useless.

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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
Codea. Look it up. You *can* code for the iPad on the iPad.
I did. So it turns out you can write code on the iPad for the iPad in one language, and that's a good start. BUT, you can't actually go and PUBLISH that code from your iPad to the App Store (which is of course the only distribution method for apps). In fact, they describe the process on their web site, and it's actually quite complicated. And what good is being able to write the code from the device if you can't go the whole nine yards and publish it from there too?

Quote:
Of course, given that the *vast* majority of PC users couldn't code for their PC *on* their PC if their lives depended on it, I don't see that as being a particularly good definition unless you think that the *vast* majority of bog-standard Windows boxes aren't PCs.
It doesn't matter what people actually use their PCs for. As mentioned above, without the ability for 1% of users to program for a platform, that platform would be useless to the other 99%. Not to mention I don't think that's the only definition of a PC. But it is a big one.

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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
You have a list of arbitrary features, none of which have *ever* been included in the traditional definition of a PC. To top it off, most of them are flat out *incorrect*.
These are all things you can do on any modern PC. If you want to make irrelevant, unreasonable comparisons between the iPad and PCs from the '70s, that's up to you but computers have come a long ways. An iPad is simply no match for any modern PC.

EDIT: Thinking about it, maybe it isn't such an irrelevant comparison after all. An iPad is about on par with a PC from the early '90s, at least in some ways.

Quote:
The very first IBM PC couldn't play Flash, does that mean it wasn't a PC?
First irrelevant comparison....

Quote:
My iPad can, has, and does connect to USB devices.
Okay, connect up a mouse and let's see what happens.

Quote:
An iPad actually *does* run multiple apps at the same time. It is limited to one user-facing app at a time
...

So clearly you understood what I was getting at, but would rather argue semantics.

Quote:
but so were early PCs, and *they* were certainly PCs. Heck, they were actually limited to one app at a time *period*, and they were still PCs.
Second irrelevant comparison....

Quote:
An iPad most certainly *can* modify or view its file system. If it couldn't, you wouldn't be able to install apps, or save files locally.
Again, semantics. As a user with a bone-stock iPad, I cannot modify the filesystem.

It seems you expect me to write a legalese-type document that covers any and every possible nuance in everything I say that could leave a loophole. Frankly I don't have the time. You know what I mean.

Quote:
An iPad *can* be used to write apps for itself locally (see Codea).
See above.

Quote:
Define 'powerful pro-level apps'. If you're talking about CPU/GPU power, then a 5 year-old PC suddenly becomes 'not a PC' because the new 'powerful pro-level apps' take more resources than it can deliver.
When your five-year-old PC was new, it could certainly run whatever version of FCP or Photoshop that was current at the time-- and it can still run those apps today. There are no apps with the same level of sophistication that can run with the same functionality on an iPad because the iPad is simply too crippled. Yes, more crippled than a five-year-old PC. As an iPad owner, if it came to any task any more involved than composing a short email or surfing Facebook, I'd much rather reach for the five-year-old PC. In fact, for the longest time, I did. I only traded my 2006 MBP in for a new rMBP when they came out last year. I used to use my old machine and my iPad about 60/40. Since getting my rMBP, I honestly have not touched my iPad in the past 2 months. The iPad is simply much slower and much more crippled.

Quote:
Also define 'modify the system'. I can't even begin to figure out what you mean by that.
On my MBP, I removed the notification center icon using a simple Terminal command. On my iPad, I can't remove the Calendar app no matter how hard I try (jailbreaking aside). On my MBP, I changed the default browser to be Firefox. On the iPad, I'm stuck with Safari. All these little things the user ought to have control over, they don't on the iPad.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 10:43 AM   #143
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Sorry guys, but the iPad is more of a "computer" than an X-box 360. Sorry but web apps like Office 365 do not count as "office" apps on an X-box. The X-box is primarily a game console and there are no "native" productivity or remote access apps on it.

The iPad does have business apps such as Citrix receiver, Logmein client, Gotomeeting, Joinme, Webex, Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Quick Office, Concur (expenses) and a plethora of other productivity and art creation applications including Photoshop touch.

From a business users, perspective, it is a reasonable replacement for a netbook for a road warrior, if and only if, they have a workplace that has the right infrastructure such as Citrix Zen desktop in place to be able to work remotely from anywhere. If they don't have that infrastructure in place, they will only be able to do things like get their email, calendars, edit some documents with something like Quick Office or participate in a meeting presentation/conference call.

So even without something like Zen desktop at their main office, they can still do a lot while on the road.

Most business users have no need to "program" especially when they are on the road but if they do, then their company likely has something like Citrix in place to facilitate that sort of remote access.

PS. You can technically "write" web apps directly on the iPad.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 11:39 AM   #144
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If you are going to combine Apples iPad with desktops then you better combine the XBox too and all other gaming machines.
The iPad doesn't compare to a fully featured desktop operating system as much as a gaming console/device which also has web, email, etc. does.

Come back with meaningful stats. next time.
Some people like my parents will buy an iPad instead of a new PC/Mac. No one buys an XBox instead of a PC/Mac.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 11:41 AM   #145
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Most business users have no need to "program" especially when they are on the road but if they do, then their company likely has something like Citrix in place to facilitate that sort of remote access.
Running on what, an iPad? Oh, no a server. So it requires a PC* to do the heavy lifting, once again proving iPads are not PCs

*Yes you can argue semantics, a server is not a "PC." But it doesn't exactly run a phone OS either.

Quote:
PS. You can technically "write" web apps directly on the iPad.
Oh, web apps, woohoo. Because web apps that allow you to scan documents or edit video or create spreadsheets just work so well in a browser that refreshes all its tabs every other time you reopen it

Web apps simply don't cut it. Even Apple recognizes this, thus the reason for the App Store. But the fact remains I cannot write any native on the iPad, and from there distribute it to other iPad users without using a PC.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 12:34 PM   #146
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Perhaps you don't understand the difference between 'is' and 'has'. A car has a computer, but a car is not a computer. An iPad does not have a computer, an iPad is a computer. A car is no more a computer, than a car is an axle, tire, engine, or gas tank.[COLOR="#808080"].
So if I pull out the computer portion from a car I own, does that turn it in to a PC? Still no right? Thats what I thought. Perhaps you don't get the logic behind your own example.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 12:52 PM   #147
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Running on what, an iPad? Oh, no a server. So it requires a PC* to do the heavy lifting, once again proving iPads are not PCs

*Yes you can argue semantics, a server is not a "PC." But it doesn't exactly run a phone OS either.
*WHOOSH*
The "post pc world" idea Steve Jobs touted was not a post server or post internet world. The internet you use on your tablet, phone or X-box runs on "servers". He envisioned a time when there would still be servers and some "PC" machines but most people would use them as "servers" if they had one. The client is still running on the iPad and it is still interfacing with any local files you have on your device and any wireless printers in the vicinity. The server is not doing any of that.
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Oh, web apps, woohoo. Because web apps that allow you to scan documents or edit video or create spreadsheets just work so well in a browser that refreshes all its tabs every other time you reopen it

Web apps simply don't cut it. Even Apple recognizes this, thus the reason for the App Store. But the fact remains I cannot write any native on the iPad, and from there distribute it to other iPad users without using a PC.
You would be surprised what a web app can do these days. You can do a lot with HTML5 and Java script and those apps can leverage features found on the device it is running on. Take the google maps web app for example. It can make use of your location, your gestures and other features of your device.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 01:33 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
So is my Casio calculator if we dismiss any realistic definition like you are doing.



So an iPad is much more a computer than laptops and desktops?

How?

----------



So your implication here being that people are buy iPads as PC replacements. Tell me this then, how many people in the world who own an iPad do not also have a PC in their household?



Except for screen size how is an iPhone not functionally identical to an iPad?

----------



How do I program software for an iPad? I can do it on an iPad since it's a PC...right?
I replaced my laptop with an iPad and use it independently from my iMac. I still don't understand why people take this so seriously/personally:

The iPad IS a PC in every sense a laptop and desktop are PCs. There are numerous industries being revolutionized because of the iPad (education, medicine, etc.) and in some ways it has MORE uses than a laptop or desktop has.

Pure computing power doesn't make a computer a computer. Otherwise, when was the "computer" invented?

Those who argue an iPad isn't a PC take a very general term (PC, which has included devices spanning decades of various utility) and somehow contort it to mean something very specific based on some personal vendetta I don't even begin to understand....

These are the same people who likely are crying for Apple to "innovate" and "evolve" yet they cling to some archaic definition of what a PC is.
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Last edited by jrswizzle; Feb 7, 2013 at 01:45 PM.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 01:46 PM   #149
2IS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrswizzle View Post
I replaced my laptop with an iPad and use it independently from my iMac. I still don't understand why people take this so seriously/personally
"independently" from your iMac? what does that mean? If it was truly a PC replacement you wouldn't have an iMac... I use my iPad independently from my toothbrush, wtf does that prove other than I need both and one is not a replacement for the other?

People who don't call iPad's PC's aren't being general at all, quite the opposite actually.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 01:51 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by lifeinhd View Post
-deleted for space-
Like I said - taking a very general term and contorting it to fit a miniscule part of the population's needs.

You said you can manipulate your MBP using terminal but then throw out the ability to manipulate an iPhone/iPad through a jailbreak?

Here are some definitions for you (straight from the dictionary):

computer: Also called processor. an electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations.

-Is the iPad a computer? Yes.

Microcomputer: a compact and relatively inexpensive computer, with less capacity and capability than a minicomputer, consisting of a microprocessor and other components of a computer, miniaturized where possible: used in small business, by hobbyists, etc

-Is the iPad a microcomputer? Yes.

Personal Computer: a microcomputer designed for individual use, as by a person in an office or at home or school, for such applications as word processing, data management, financial analysis, or computer games.

-Is the iPad a Personal Computer? Yes.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2IS View Post
"independently" from your iMac? what does that mean? If it was truly a PC replacement you wouldn't have an iMac... I use my iPad independently from my toothbrush, wtf does that prove other than I need both and one is not a replacement for the other?

People who don't call iPad's PC's aren't being general at all, quite the opposite actually.
So by your logic, when I owned both a MBP and an iMac, the MBP wasn't a PC? It's not possible to own MULTIPLE personal computers for various utility (travel, portability)?

I was stating that I can use my iPad independently of my iMac in the same way I used my MBP independently of my iMac - the argument that the iPad isn't a PC because you require a "real computer" to use the iPad isn't valid in the slightest.

That's what I'm saying - people who say iPad's aren't PCs are being TOO specific given the true definition of a PC.
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