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Old Feb 6, 2013, 07:57 PM   #1
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Ayn Rand and Libertarianism

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Originally Posted by iMikeT View Post
If I were you, start becoming skeptical of libertarian free will, it's nothing more than a pipe dream perpetuated by ilks like Ayn Rand. Life is far more complex than the simplistic, black and white world answers that you put out there of simply "just doing it".
Just because I'm tired of seeing Ayn Rand grouped in with libertarians:

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For the record, I shall repeat what I have said many times before: I do not join or endorse any political group or movement. More specifically, I disapprove of, disagree with, and have no connection with, the latest aberration of some conservatives, the so-called “hippies of the right,” who attempt to snare the younger or more careless ones of my readers by claiming simultanteously to be followers of my philosophy and advocates of anarchism. Anyone offering such a combination confesses his inability to understand either. Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:08 PM   #2
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Just because I'm tired of seeing Ayn Rand grouped in with libertarians:
That doesn't mean the right and libertarians haven't glommed on to her.

This is not about what groups she felt affiliated with, it's about what groups find affiliation with her.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:09 PM   #3
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That doesn't mean the right and libertarians haven't glommed on to her.

This is not about what groups she felt affiliated with, it's about what groups find affiliation with her.
The "libertarians" you refer to aren't libertarians.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:11 PM   #4
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Why don't you guys start a separate "Libertarian/Ayn Rand" thread, rather than throwing this one into a different direction?

I'm enjoying the outrageous statements coming from iMikeT.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:13 PM   #5
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Why don't you guys start a separate "Libertarian/Ayn Rand" thread, rather than throwing this one into a different direction?

I'm enjoying the outrageous statements coming from iMikeT.
Sorry if it was off topic. I was just commenting on the misconception posted that Ayn Rand was a libertarian or endorsed libertarianism.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:16 PM   #6
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The "libertarians" you refer to aren't libertarians.
No true Scotsman fallacy.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:20 PM   #7
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No true Scotsman fallacy.
I'm going to report my post to make sure this isn't too off topic before we proceed. If so, I'll ask if it can be separated into it's own thread.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 08:45 PM   #8
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No true Scotsman fallacy.
I don't think so. There are of course varying definitions of libertarianism, but at the basic level libertarianism is a political philosophy that is based around minimizing coercion, and enhancing liberty and mutually agreeable interactions.

Really, it's very, very similar to anarchy, the terms could be used interchangeably for the most part.

So you could probably say in general that all political philosophies aim to achieve what I mentioned above. But the key difference between libertarianism and conservatism is that libertarianism considers the government a source of coercion, and thus must be minimized for that reason.

As mentioned in my link, Ayn Rand considered libertarianism in the same sense that I do, one that's ultimate goal is to minimize coercion, and remove the government, similar to anarchism.

There are other differences between libertarians and conservatives, such as conservatives banning gay marriage and stuff like that. That obviously doesn't enhance liberty.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 10:50 PM   #9
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 11:01 PM   #10
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Yeah, Ayn Rand was also a ****ing hypocrite that first railed against Medicare and then used it under a fake name when she needed it. Where her and her ilk see a conspiracy of coercion around every corner is in reality a much more complex world that is beyond their small minded comprehension.
"Ayn Rand" was a fake name, her given name was Алиса Розенбаум.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 11:50 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
Why don't you guys start a separate "Libertarian/Ayn Rand" thread, rather than throwing this one into a different direction?

I'm enjoying the outrageous statements coming from iMikeT.


You're welcome.

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Just because I'm tired of seeing Ayn Rand grouped in with libertarians:


Just like Ronald Reagan is the modern-day Republican god, Ayn Rand is pretty much the modern-day Libertarian god.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 11:51 PM   #12
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You're welcome.[COLOR="#808080"]
Ayn Rand is pretty much the modern-day Libertarian god.
That would be Ron Paul.
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Old Feb 6, 2013, 11:52 PM   #13
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Yeah, Ayn Rand was also a ****ing hypocrite that first railed against Medicare and then used it under a fake name when she needed it. Where her and her ilk see a conspiracy of coercion around every corner is in reality a much more complex world that is beyond their small minded comprehension.


Exactly. She was nuts, to say the least.

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That would be Ron Paul.


Yeah him too. In fact, he worships her and named his son after her. How about two gods in modern-day libertarianism?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:22 AM   #14
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Just like Ronald Reagan is the modern-day Republican god, Ayn Rand is pretty much the modern-day Libertarian god.
Well that's funny then, because she wasn't a libertarian
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:31 AM   #15
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Well that's funny then, because she wasn't a libertarian
Nor, according to many, would Ronald Reagan nowadays be considered a conservative.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:34 AM   #16
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Nor, according to many, would Ronald Reagan nowadays be considered a conservative.
I guess? Idk. He certainly wasn't a libertarian. I don't think he was a communist or liberal. That doesn't leave a whole lot else does it?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 06:50 AM   #17
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Nor, according to many, would Ronald Reagan nowadays be considered a conservative.
Not a chance in hell. Let's see…

Reagan raised taxes 11 times.
Increased debt ceiling 17 times.
Started us on our path to debt and deficits.
Cut and run after Beirut attack.
Gave amnesty to undocumented immigrants.
Said "One of the most elemental human rights [is] the right to belong to a free trade union." and "Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. "

Let's not forget his record as Governor of California where he signed the Therapeutic Abortion Act of 1967, and signed legislation guaranteeing California public employees the right to bargain collectively.

Lets also not forget he was a Hollywood actor, head of the Screen Actors Guild (A UNION!) and supported the 1994 assault weapons ban post-Presidency.

Other than that, I think they'd embrace him.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 07:11 AM   #18
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@eric/

It appears I was wrong and you do know the difference between libertarianism/anarchism and "Libertarianism",for that I apologise.

That even the sentimental romantic novelist Rand realised this shows just how stupid the present day "Libertarians" are.
As a president from the past might have said "the trouble with the French is they don't have a word for libertarianism" (what he is supposed to have said [although it's disputed ] "the trouble with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur" the point being entrepreneur is a French word as indeed is libertarian,Snopes poo poo's this but Shirley Williams says she heard him say it so I'm going with Williams).
The word evolved in the nineteenth century at a time anarchists were under heavy attack from the state and began calling themselves libertaires to confuse their attackers.

Reagan by the way was a prick of the highest order the results of his and Thatchers attack on the living standards of ordinary people are still being felt allover the world.I was in NY when he died and can not believe the outpouring of grief for such a bastard.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 12:10 PM   #19
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The "libertarians" you refer to aren't libertarians.
Man, I'm having such a hard time finding a True Scotsman today...can you help me?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 12:22 PM   #20
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Man, I'm having such a hard time finding a True Scotsman today...can you help me?
This is not a case of "true Scotsman" this is a case of a small group using a term which for well over one hundred years has referred to a political philosophy which is 180 degrees from their philosophy and trying to claim it as their own.
A similar attempt to use "true Scotsman" could be aimed at democracy because the "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" and the "Deutsche Demokratische Republik" call themselves Democracies does that in fact make them Democracies?

(not that anyone will pin down a definition of Democracy it's to easy to say we are democratic they are not so the term has been used by some of the most vile authoritarians on the planet).
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 12:56 PM   #21
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This is not a case of "true Scotsman" this is a case of a small group using a term which for well over one hundred years has referred to a political philosophy which is 180 degrees from their philosophy and trying to claim it as their own.
A similar attempt to use "true Scotsman" could be aimed at democracy because the "Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" and the "Deutsche Demokratische Republik" call themselves Democracies does that in fact make them Democracies?

(not that anyone will pin down a definition of Democracy it's to easy to say we are democratic they are not so the term has been used by some of the most vile authoritarians on the planet).
Thanks.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 01:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Just because I'm tired of seeing Ayn Rand grouped in with libertarians:

link
I read Atlas Shrugged so many years ago, I can't remember what it's about... sad. Was it pushing what conservatives today would latch onto as conservative values? Or was it just some character doing "the right things"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:
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The book explores a dystopian United States where many of society's most productive citizens refuse to be exploited by increasing taxation and government regulations and go on strike. The refusal evokes the imagery of what would happen if the mythological Atlas refused to continue to hold up the world. They are led by John Galt. Galt describes the strike as "stopping the motor of the world" by withdrawing the minds that drive society's growth and productivity. In their efforts, these people "of the mind" hope to demonstrate that a world in which the individual is not free to create is doomed, that civilization cannot exist where every person is a slave to society and government, and that the destruction of the profit motive leads to the collapse of society. The protagonist, Dagny Taggart, sees society collapse around her as the government increasingly asserts control over all industry.
This just not ring a bell... hmm, maybe I read Fountain Head instead.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 01:08 PM   #23
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I read Atlas Shrugged so many years ago, I can't remember what it's about... sad. Was it pushing what conservatives today would latch onto as conservative values? Or was it just some character doing "the right things"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:


This just not ring a bell... hmm, maybe I read Fountain Head instead.
I read both as well. I liked them. I interpreted them the same way your quote did. Minds need to be free.
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 01:13 PM   #24
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I read both as well. I liked them. I interpreted them the same way your quote did. Minds need to be free.
I haven't read Fountain Head, but I really liked Atlas Shrugged, though I think there was a lot of boring dialog, Rand could have make the book half the size and removed some of the boring parts. Is The Fountainhead worth the read?
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Old Feb 7, 2013, 01:16 PM   #25
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I haven't read Fountain Head, but I really liked Atlas Shrugged, though I think there was a lot of boring dialog, Rand could have make the book half the size and removed some of the boring parts. Is The Fountainhead worth the read?
I liked it better myself.
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