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Old Feb 8, 2013, 06:53 AM   #26
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I do understand what you are saying, my problem is I want to help, but I also want not to derail the whole process. If this was a neutral event I wouldn't bother, but when it's family you do tend to go that extra metre.
Use the Nike approach...

"Just do it"
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 07:12 AM   #27
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It appears it's not really a lottery, if there is any sort of selection committee, "behavioral interview" or anything like that the process is already corrupted.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 10:05 AM   #28
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There is no numbers in hats or tickets pulled out of boxes, although I must say that does sound really socialist, everybody completely equal.





I put this in PRSI but I am at a total loss as to your argument.


Dream on with that one.




Again not a number out of hat or ticket out of box, but I do like the idea it's really socialist.



I'm sad that you see it as petty corruption, pretty corruption that's what I was aiming for, after all it's for one of my little princesses.



This is exactly my point, as a neutral I could not agree more, but I'm not neutral, this is family.



This not Hogwarts, they don't have magic.



Yes I did misuse the word lottery, I had read so often in the British press over (Postcode Lottery) when talking about random services.
I should have used words like pot luck, or even hands of fate.



One of the major reasons why these Free Schools are always over subscribed is they maintain a very low class size, on average nothing above 24 pupils.
The fact that they are over subscribed gives them the right to determine who has access.

Being diaper free is an absolute.
Letters of recommendation from the kindergarden are helpful, as this shows that child used to a school like environment.
Another hurdle is what is called the "Parents contribution" this is a extra fee levied on parents to pay for school trips, music instruments for the school orchestra, iPads for class 2 and above.

The final selection of pupils is based on an interview with the child and parents. The answers that are given are what makes the difference. It would be of great help to know what the interviewer is looking to discover.(It is this that I am looking to get some pointers on what is expected)

This interview is not set until September 2013, but preparation is never wasted.

I also have a very good personal friend who happens to own a music store, and would of course be willing to give a reduced prices, to the school.
Giving everyone a fair chance is certainly not socialism. Socialism would be everybody getting the same education for free. Use whatever influence you can to do whatever you want. That's your choice. Just don't come here and expect people to tell you it's ok. (Well, not everybody....)
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 12:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
I do understand what you are saying, my problem is I want to help, but I also want not to derail the whole process. If this was a neutral event I wouldn't bother, but when it's family you do tend to go that extra metre.
What I was trying to say is that I would not try to take an unfair advantage, but then again I would take every fair advantage (just like all the other families). I was also trying to say that I think we sometimes overestimate the impact of schools on learning compared to the home environment. In any case, I meant no offense and I wish your family luck.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 01:02 PM   #30
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What I was trying to say is that I would not try to take an unfair advantage, but then again I would take every fair advantage (just like all the other families). I was also trying to say that I think we sometimes overestimate the impact of schools on learning compared to the home environment. In any case, I meant no offense and I wish your family luck.
No offense taken, you did make some important points.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 08:33 PM   #31
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All this over a primary school?

That kid isn't under any pressure to succeed.

No siree.

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Old Feb 9, 2013, 09:56 AM   #32
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No offense taken, you did make some important points.
Really though, as I said the entire lottery is already compromised by the judges own bias because it's not completely random. If there are interviews, well, might as well throw the whole thing out because these judges are now influencing the outcome to an extend that it's definitely not a random drawing.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 10:18 AM   #33
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All this over a primary school?

That kid isn't under any pressure to succeed.

No siree.

You just wait, the real action will be when it's a University place.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 11:27 AM   #34
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If the school places are allocated by a lottery then it's wrong. Plain and simple. Tempting - sure, but it's wrong.

Lotteries are used not just to ensure fairness but also to protect the integrity of the staff concerned. If it can be circumvented through a jolly good dinner and a word in the right ear then why not just save time and offer a few quid in an envelope?

I've been a school governor and I would have been really been unhappy about being put in that position.

....

Edit...

Ah, looks like it's an interview process - not a lottery

Last edited by jeremy h; Feb 9, 2013 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Not a lottery after all?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 11:32 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
If the school places are allocated by a lottery then it's wrong. Plain and simple. Tempting - sure, but it's wrong.

Lotteries are used not just to ensure fairness but also to protect the integrity of the staff concerned. If it can be circumvented through a jolly good dinner and a word in the right ear then why not just save time and offer a few quid in an envelope?

I've been a school governor and I would have been really been unhappy about being put in that position.
I did use the word lottery wrong please read post 21.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
If the school places are allocated by a lottery then it's wrong. Plain and simple. Tempting - sure, but it's wrong.

Lotteries are used not just to ensure fairness but also to protect the integrity of the staff concerned. If it can be circumvented through a jolly good dinner and a word in the right ear then why not just save time and offer a few quid in an envelope?

I've been a school governor and I would have been really been unhappy about being put in that position.

....

Edit...

Ah, looks like it's an interview process - not a lottery

See you already have
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 11:53 AM   #36
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I've often thought that when schools are heavily oversubscribed then a lottery system for everyone who eligible by catchment for example, is a very fair way of doing it. (Most of the complaints against them seem to come from people who are used to wielding influence!)

If selection is based on parental interviews then I would class the admissions procedure as 'selective' and open to influence, admissions tutoring and all that stuff anyway. (Faith schools here use that sort of system to operate a covert selection process. Helps keep out the riff raff but ensures the state will still pay for what is effectively a highly selective school.)
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 01:00 PM   #37
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I did use the word lottery wrong please read post 21.
Just donate a bunch of money to the school.

You'll get a building with your name on it. (a BUNCH of money)

And your little princess will be able to attend the primary school of her your choice.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 01:12 PM   #38
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.....If selection is based on parental interviews then I would class the admissions procedure as 'selective' and open to influence, admissions tutoring and all that stuff anyway......
not to mentions simple bribes.....er, I mean "tips" for good service
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 01:40 PM   #39
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Just donate a bunch of money to the school.

You'll get a building with your name on it. (a BUNCH of money)

And your little princess will be able to attend the primary school of her your choice.
You don't know how near the mark you are, my great grand father did exactly that. The school is still in existence today, it's now a middle school.

Putting your name on a school has since been made impossible, I think that happened some time around 1925.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 01:52 PM   #40
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There are first world problems and then there are elite first world problems.

This is the latter.

I am against preferential treatment. Why? Because I feel that one's circumstance in life and the resulting affiliations shouldn't be the deciding factor over a more qualified or deserving student (heck, even equal) who didn't have the luck of an "influential" grandpa.

What I do know is that your grand daughter will be fine in life because of her circumstances (through you I assume in part). As such, the other poor student who may get past over now because of your actions may not have that same luxury and his/her getting in and this may be his ticket to advance himself.

However, the world is never fair and those in the upper echelons of society seek to maintain it that way and make it hard for those trying to move up to do so.

Do as you will but I am of the opinion that it disappoints/saddens me as I am sure this won't be the only instance in which you feel to help her out by creating an unfair advantage that others won't simply ever have.


I have friends who have their entire college educations paid for, get brand new cars, have businesses "handed" down to them and they have no idea what it is like to pay for things. My good buddy's now ex-fiance was one of those girls and she admittedly looked down on him because he didn't have much spending money as he had to foot his own way through school and whatnot.

Granted it's all perspective. I am sure many would love to have "my" problems of being raised in a stable, good, supporting home even if it wasn't financially well off. But that is perspective too when you look at those in developing countries. Alot to be thankful for

In short, if it is ethical, do it. If not, I wouldn't.

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Old Feb 9, 2013, 02:00 PM   #41
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There are first world problems and then there are elite first world problems.

This is the latter.

I am against preferential treatment. Why? Because I feel that one's circumstance in life and the resulting affiliations shouldn't be the deciding factor over a more qualified or deserving student (heck, even equal) who didn't have the luck of an "influential" grandpa.

What I do know is that your grand daughter will be fine in life because of her circumstances (through you I assume in part). As such, the other poor student who may get past over now because of your actions may not have that same luxury and his/her getting in and this may be his ticket to advance himself.

However, the world is never fair and those in the upper echelons of society seek to maintain it that way and make it hard for those trying to move up to do so.

Do as you will but I am of the opinion that it disappoints/saddens me as I am sure this won't be the only instance in which you feel to help her out by creating an unfair advantage that others won't simply ever have.
I agree with you, and if this was a neutral event, I would see that way too. But as I have written before this is family, I want to help, but not to the extent that I derailed the whole process.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 02:09 PM   #42
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I agree with you, and if this was a neutral event, I would see that way too. But as I have written before this is family, I want to help, but not to the extent that I derailed the whole process.
I would argue family is the primary reason one would ever intervene for a privileged position/treatment.

As I wrote in my edited post above, I would do what you think is ethical personally. However, nothing is stopping you from taking steps, ethical or nonethical, to give her all the "leg-up" she can get and you can provide.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 02:10 PM   #43
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I've often thought that when schools are heavily oversubscribed then a lottery system for everyone who eligible by catchment for example, is a very fair way of doing it. (Most of the complaints against them seem to come from people who are used to wielding influence!)
......
I've often thought that when schools are heavily oversubscribed then the standards are too low .

Competitive eligibility is a very fair way of distributing limited resources ........

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Old Feb 9, 2013, 02:42 PM   #44
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There are first world problems and then there are elite first world problems.

This is the latter.
No kidding.

I have a couple of points before I have to actually get something done today ...

According to this article, the Netherlands ranks 7th in the world education rankings from the study by the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

It stretches credulity to ask us to believe that this one school (I'm assuming we're talking about public schools) is so much better than any of the other available public schools.

If that were the fact then the question IMO would not be how do I get my grand daughter in the one good school available to me, it would be instead, how can I help raise the quality of all our local public schools to give all of our children a quality education?

But most importantly, in my experience it's the person more than the school that makes a difference in one's success. If your grand-daughter is intelligent, inquisitive, focused and hard-working, then she's going to succeed in life regardless of where she is educated in your public school system.

This quest to put her in the "best" school—especially because we're talking primary education—seems quite misguided. You should be focusing on her character, her mind, her activities and enrichment. That will go so much further to benefit her life than placement in any primary school.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 03:16 PM   #45
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I've often thought that when schools are heavily oversubscribed then the standards are too low .

Competitive eligibility is a very fair way of distributing limited resources ........
What's "competitive eligibility"?
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 04:35 AM   #46
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I can sympathise with the situation... family is a strong motivator and education is vital. However, I hope the people that would do this don't complain when they lose out on jobs because if nepotism or 'jobs for the boys' or when politicians use their power and influence to help their friends.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 05:54 AM   #47
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I can sympathise with the situation... family is a strong motivator and education is vital. However, I hope the people that would do this don't complain when they lose out on jobs because if nepotism or 'jobs for the boys' or when politicians use their power and influence to help their friends.
or girls in this modern world.

But joking aside that is the dilemma how much help is to much?

To do nothing is not a option, after all it's family.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 09:14 AM   #48
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What's "competitive eligibility"?
Same thing as anything competitive...... It's a simple concept of winners and losers. There are 2 ways to select a winner in a "fair" competition. First way is the person who finishes first, the second is to randomly select from all the entrants. The non competitive method is to select either all the entrants or just the one you like.

I prefer the first competitive way, if you think 2+2= anything other than 4 you get to go somewhere else. You may prefer one of the others. .

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Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:37 PM   #49
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Same thing as anything competitive...... It's a simple concept of winners and losers. There are 2 ways to select a winner in a "fair" competition. First way is the person who finishes first, the second is to randomly select from all the entrants. The non competitive method is to select either all the entrants or just the one you like.

I prefer the first competitive way, if you think 2+2= anything other than 4 you get to go somewhere else. You may prefer one of the others. .
So are you saying that we should select 5 year olds based on their abilities?

Or are you saying that we should select 5 year olds based on the abilities of their parents?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 04:07 PM   #50
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So are you saying that we should select 5 year olds based on their abilities?

Or are you saying that we should select 5 year olds based on the abilities of their parents?
By whatever criteria you want ..... make either the parents or 5 year olds run a race or put them in a cage and select the last one standing.
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