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Old Feb 8, 2013, 06:54 PM   #26
citizenzen
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Are you suggesting no one be allowed to wear t-shirts?
At least not "wife-beaters" ... the AR-15 of t-Shirts.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 07:02 PM   #27
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at least not "wife-beaters" ... The ar-15 of t-shirts.
Blah the smiley seems to be broken. Oh well. It was still funny.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 07:12 PM   #28
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A serious question for gun enthusiasts:

Please explain the philosophical connection you make between owning an AR-15 (the firearm in question) and your sense of personal "freedom."

Because I don't see it.

To me "freedom" is the ability to live and work where I want to. Its the ability, if I choose to do so, to criticize my elected officials. To love the person (or people) I want to. To travel where I want to. To listen to the sort of music I like, to wear clothes I like. To worship (or not) God in the manner that best meets my own spiritual needs. To read, and write, the sort of literature I enjoy.

And I have a very hard time imagining a world where my ownership of any sort of firearm has much bearing whatsoever on my ability to do any of the things that I equate with personal freedom.

I'll not dispute, for a moment, the fact that firing off a couple of magazines of .223 ammo down at the firing range can be a thrilling experience. But no more so than the thrill I get from, for example, mastering a new rock riff on my guitar. (The difference, in case you missed it, is that it would be impractical for me, or anyone else, to murder twenty innocent school kids with my Stratocaster.)

But let us not fall victim to the gun enthusiasts' conceit that owning an AR-15 confers or guarantees their (or my) "freedom" on anyone. It doesn't.

My "freedom" is the result of my living in a nation of Laws. A representative democracy, where our leaders are chosen via secret ballot. That our national security is upheld by a well-funded professional military. That our domestic security is protected by professional law enforcement agencies. And that our Government is staffed by equally qualified professionals. And that we live in a nation with a vigorous free press. That we have an independent Judiciary, where any citizen can go to court to address wrongs done to him by his neighbors and his Government.

You can argue all you want about the niceties of what the Founders precisely meant by the words "well-regulated militia." But lets not kid ourselves that owning an AR-15 makes you any more free than I am. Because you ain't.
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 09:31 PM   #29
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Old Feb 8, 2013, 09:47 PM   #30
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OP sounds like your friend is either a complete moron or has never heard of gunbroker. Sell it now while prices are sky high. There won't be a ban and prices have already began to fall. DPMS sportical rifles that you could get for 700 before the shooting were selling for 1600+ a week ago, they are now fetching about 1200-1300.

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My "freedom" is the result of my living in a nation of Laws. A representative democracy, where our leaders are chosen via secret ballot. That our national security is upheld by a well-funded professional military. That our domestic security is protected by professional law enforcement agencies. And that our Government is staffed by equally qualified professionals. And that we live in a nation with a vigorous free press. That we have an independent Judiciary, where any citizen can go to court to address wrongs done to him by his neighbors and his Government.
BWAHAHAHA!!! Do you live in a Gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 06:18 AM   #31
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OP...

At that price, run, dont walk to this guys house and sell it. The likelihood of any kind of ban happening any time soon is decreasing every day, and gunbroker prices are dropping also.

2 weeks ago colt 6920s were fetching over 2k, a quick look on that site now shows that many (if not most) have BIN of 2k or less.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 06:29 AM   #32
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A serious question for gun enthusiasts:

Please explain the philosophical connection you make between owning an AR-15 (the firearm in question) and your sense of personal "freedom."

Because I don't see it.

To me "freedom" is the ability to live and work where I want to. Its the ability, if I choose to do so, to criticize my elected officials. To love the person (or people) I want to. To travel where I want to. To listen to the sort of music I like, to wear clothes I like. To worship (or not) God in the manner that best meets my own spiritual needs. To read, and write, the sort of literature I enjoy.

And I have a very hard time imagining a world where my ownership of any sort of firearm has much bearing whatsoever on my ability to do any of the things that I equate with personal freedom.

I'll not dispute, for a moment, the fact that firing off a couple of magazines of .223 ammo down at the firing range can be a thrilling experience. But no more so than the thrill I get from, for example, mastering a new rock riff on my guitar. (The difference, in case you missed it, is that it would be impractical for me, or anyone else, to murder twenty innocent school kids with my Stratocaster.)

But let us not fall victim to the gun enthusiasts' conceit that owning an AR-15 confers or guarantees their (or my) "freedom" on anyone. It doesn't.

My "freedom" is the result of my living in a nation of Laws. A representative democracy, where our leaders are chosen via secret ballot. That our national security is upheld by a well-funded professional military. That our domestic security is protected by professional law enforcement agencies. And that our Government is staffed by equally qualified professionals. And that we live in a nation with a vigorous free press. That we have an independent Judiciary, where any citizen can go to court to address wrongs done to him by his neighbors and his Government.

You can argue all you want about the niceties of what the Founders precisely meant by the words "well-regulated militia." But lets not kid ourselves that owning an AR-15 makes you any more free than I am. Because you ain't.

Just because you don't see it does not mean that the rest of us are that blind.


As for the rest of your comments:

"That our domestic security is protected by professional law enforcement agencies."


Its been pointed out here multiple times by myself and others that the job of LEO is not to protect you. That is actually an impossibility. They can investigate crimes after they have happened, but thats pretty much it. Also, many (not all) cops and LEO organizations are highly corrupt and inept.

"That we have an independent Judiciary, where any citizen can go to court to address wrongs done to him by his neighbors and his Government."

Sometimes this works, sometimes it does not.

"And that we live in a nation with a vigorous free press."

News flash...the press these days are pretty much nothing more than political mouthpieces of either party.
There are some exceptions, being that each organization (even Fox) has some news personalities that do a reasonably good job of NOT toeing the party line, but each MSM channel clearly has its own agenda.

"I'll not dispute, for a moment, the fact that firing off a couple of magazines of .223 ammo down at the firing range can be a thrilling experience. But no more so than the thrill I get from, for example, mastering a new rock riff on my guitar."

As someone who has pretty much retired from the band/musician life, I totally disagree with that comment.

"Please explain the philosophical connection you make between owning an AR-15 (the firearm in question) and your sense of personal "freedom.""

Simple...because I can, and because I want to.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 10:05 AM   #33
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Just another myth invented by the pro-gun side.
That's not another myth invented by the pro-gun side.

It was mis-information put out by the media based on a picture that showed the police removing a weapon from the trunk of the crazy kid's car that was incorrectly identified by the liberal media as an AR-15 before we even knew what weapons were used in the shooting. Yes the pro-gun jumped on that information, but it turned out to be wrong.


But it doesn't matter....that is not what this thread is about.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 10:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
"Please explain the philosophical connection you make between owning an AR-15 (the firearm in question) and your sense of personal "freedom.""

Simple...because I can, and because I want to.
Oh, good. That was easy. Then my statement that waving guns and yelling "freedom" is just more macho bravado "look-at-me" stuff is true simply because I want it to be. Sweet!
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 10:59 AM   #35
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Oh, good. That was easy. Then my statement that waving guns and yelling "freedom" is just more macho bravado "look-at-me" stuff is true simply because I want it to be. Sweet!
So? Should people not be allowed to own things because they want to?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 11:52 AM   #36
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So? Should people not be allowed to own things because they want to?
Some things? No.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 11:56 AM   #37
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Some things? No.
Why?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 11:57 AM   #38
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But it doesn't matter....that is not what this thread is about.
What is this thread about?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 12:20 PM   #39
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What is this thread about?
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post

The discussion...In reality, removed from emotion, what good, at this point in time would a ban on any weapon that has been legal to purchase for years do?
  • It won't remove those weapons from the public.
  • It won't stop private party sales.
  • It won't reduce the numbers in public significantly without expensive buy back programs.
  • It won't stop a criminal from getting one and using it.
  • It won't stop a mental case from taking an unsecured weapon and killing people.
I do not see what the benefit will be save for a symbolic gesture to tell people that those weapons are dangerous. Well duh.

Guns are not like coffee makers and computers. They are not throw away items. If they break, they get fixed. The bans do not cover repair parts and even if it did, in this day and age the parts could be ordered from a different country. A ban will not reduce the current number of weapons in a tangible way. Even if you stopped ALL new sales, a hundred years from now there would still be guns, and they would still shoot.


----------

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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
Oh, good. That was easy. Then my statement that waving guns and yelling "freedom" is just more macho bravado "look-at-me" stuff is true simply because I want it to be. Sweet!
Not really. The AR in question, my wife's, is a nice shooting gun. It's comfortable, low recoil so she can shoot it all day without pain, it's light, fitted to her well and the configuration of the weapon makes it a very safe weapon to shoot. She has done very well at the range in the competitive shooting world with it. But she wants to get into something else now and the prices are good for her right now.

Last edited by stridemat; Feb 10, 2013 at 10:21 AM. Reason: Updated post
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 12:22 PM   #40
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One would think that a responsible gun owner would know what laws have been proposed and what EOs Obama signed. Sadly, all we get is the ban guns mantra.
A local columnist went to a rally and asked gun owners to quote the Second Amendment. Hilarity ensued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
OP...

At that price, run, dont walk to this guys house and sell it. The likelihood of any kind of ban happening any time soon is decreasing every day, and gunbroker prices are dropping also.

2 weeks ago colt 6920s were fetching over 2k, a quick look on that site now shows that many (if not most) have BIN of 2k or less.
I gotta' agree with glocke12 here. Go sell the pink gun and make some money, when the market cools, buy another. They'll be available because there's no political will to ban the AR-15 or its variants. Hue and cry, sure, but a ban will die in the House. We'll be lucky to get anything out of Congress that's worth a damn.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 12:28 PM   #41
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Why?
We've been through it a hundred times before. I don't think we need to rehash the same circular arguments.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 12:32 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
OP...

At that price, run, dont walk to this guys house and sell it. The likelihood of any kind of ban happening any time soon is decreasing every day, and gunbroker prices are dropping also.

2 weeks ago colt 6920s were fetching over 2k, a quick look on that site now shows that many (if not most) have BIN of 2k or less.
but just a few weeks ago you were panic buying;

Quote:
Americans are panicking, and are speaking with their wallets. If the majority of citizens here in the US want these banned as the news reports say, why have people been flocking to gun stores to get whatever semi-auto weapon they can?

I include myself here. The sunday after the shooting, I purchased another black rifle off of Gunbroker (Colt Socom II for those who care), and the next day I called my local gun store and put a Colt AR15 on layaway, Tuesday night I picked it up, only after selling some music equipment and a cherished Martin D41 in order to pay for these new rifles.
Back then you were telling us an extensive ban was definitely coming....... what happened? have you come to your senses?

Do you think MuddyPaws1 should tell his wife to wait until after the next school massacre so she can get a better price?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 12:33 PM   #43
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We've been through it a hundred times before. I don't think we need to rehash the same circular arguments.
Well, assuming we've been through this argument, apparently we do need to rehash it if you're still making claims like this.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 01:59 PM   #44
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but just a few weeks ago you were panic buying;



Back then you were telling us an extensive ban was definitely coming....... what happened? have you come to your senses?
Actually it was closer to 5-6 weeks ago..Sure I was panicking....and I am glad I did because I was able to buy a couple of additional rifles before all hell broke loose price wise. At that point in time a ban was more likely to occur than not occur because emotions were running high after Sandy Hook. Since than reason seems to be returning to many. Was I wrong to think that a ban would happen quickly ? Possibly...Were my fears ungrounded ? No...

At the federal level the battle is far from being over, and at the state level there are still many reasons to be concerned in many places.

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Do you think MuddyPaws1 should tell his wife to wait until after the next school massacre so she can get a better price?
Really?
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 02:38 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Actually it was closer to 5-6 weeks ago..Sure I was panicking....and I am glad I did because I was able to buy a couple of additional rifles before all hell broke loose price wise. At that point in time a ban was more likely to occur than not occur because emotions were running high after Sandy Hook. Since than reason seems to be returning to many. Was I wrong to think that a ban would happen quickly ? Possibly...Were my fears ungrounded ? No...

At the federal level the battle is far from being over, and at the state level there are still many reasons to be concerned in many places.



Really?
I'm not really clear how the probability of a ban has changed significantly in the past few weeks...

Congress were hardly going to pass one immediately...
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 03:41 PM   #46
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Well, assuming we've been through this argument, apparently we do need to rehash it if you're still making claims like this.
I'm making a claim that I don't think people should be able to own:
- Fully automatic weapons
- Large magazines for semi automatic weapons
- Weapons-grade nuclear/radioactive material
- Chemicals which can be used in biological warfare
- Grenades
- Missile launchers

...amongst other things. Just because you want them shouldn't necessarily entitle you to such. Why? Because I believe in societal good, not necessarily individual desire. I do not expect or care if you agree, which I know you don't.

Oh, and also...my post that you responded to asking whether people should be able to own things had no bearing on anything i actually said. I simply said that I think owning multiple guns was a machismo thing. Whether or not you want to or it should be allowed wasn't brought up, until you brought it up. I would giggle and roll my eyes at someone wearing checkerboard bellbottoms, a mad-hatter hat, with an ironic mustache, riding a unicycle as well. But I wouldn't say he couldn't do it.


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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Actually it was closer to 5-6 weeks ago..Sure I was panicking....and I am glad I did because I was able to buy a couple of additional rifles before all hell broke loose price wise.
So I'm curious about this point. Most of the people who are hardcore "must have guns!" types claim the self-defense need. Unless you have a third arm, I'd say you could never use more than two guns at any given time. Why have so many others? Because I don't think it's not about self defense. It's about toys.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 03:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
I'm making a claim that I don't think people should be able to own:
- Fully automatic weapons
- Large magazines for semi automatic weapons
- Weapons-grade nuclear/radioactive material
- Chemicals which can be used in biological warfare
- Grenades
- Missile launchers
Add to that list some items that are directly firearm related, yet restricted ...
  • Sawed-off shotguns
  • Short-barreled rifles
  • Silencers/mufflers
  • armor-piercing ammo
  • incendiary ammo

You can't own these simply because you want them.

You'll have to jump through extra hoops if you want to legally own them.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 03:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
I'm making a claim that I don't think people should be able to own:
- Fully automatic weapons
- Large magazines for semi automatic weapons
- Weapons-grade nuclear/radioactive material
- Chemicals which can be used in biological warfare
- Grenades
- Missile launchers

...amongst other things. Just because you want them shouldn't necessarily entitle you to such. Why? Because I believe in societal good, not necessarily individual desire. I do not expect or care if you agree, which I know you don't.
Just because you don't want them shouldn't entitle you to such.

And how do you know what's good for society? How is it that what is bad for individuals, is good for society? How do you determine what's good for society?

The problem here, is that you seek to push your opinion, through government bullies, if necessary, whom will use the very same items you seek to ban to actually kill people, just to make sure that individual, law abiding citizens don't have them.

You seek to create force, and conflict, to deprive individual people of items that you arbitrarily deem hazardous and all in the name of "social good".

If anybody needs to have these weapons taken from them, it's governments. Government is the #1 killer. Worldwide. Period. I believe in liberty, democracy, and the decentralization of power. Not bullying, restrictions, and war in order to enforce one point of view on others.

and where in the world you derive some sort of ethical or philosophical justification for killing people to make them do what you want is beyond me.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 03:54 PM   #49
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Just because you don't want them shouldn't entitle you to such.
And just because you believe that anything should be available to anyone doesn't make you right either, as much as you like to think you have figured the world out and everyone else is wrong.

Quote:
I believe in liberty, democracy, and the decentralization of power. Not bullying, restrictions, and war in order to enforce one point of view on others.
I believe in telling people to shove it. Because I can and I want to.

Quote:
and where in the world you derive some sort of ethical or philosophical justification for killing people to make them do what you want is beyond me.
What in the living hell are you talking about? Where you come up with this stuff is beyond me.

At the risk of being called out by mods again after a discussion with you (which I have more opinions about), I will hold off there for now.
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Old Feb 9, 2013, 04:45 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
I'm making a claim that I don't think people should be able to own:
- Fully automatic weapons already illegal unless you acquire the proper licensing.
- Large magazines for semi automatic weapons what's the magic number for you?
- Weapons-grade nuclear/radioactive material who can afford it?
- Chemicals which can be used in biological warfare See above. If you know how to get a hold of it, then you are not an average citizen.
- Grenades already illegal
- Missile launchers already illegal
I don't get the large capacity magazine argument. I will give you this, the drum magazine is way over the top for non military use. They are impractical to carry extra's for one thing. Changing out a magazine does not take that much time so I don't see what limiting the amount of ammo a magazine can carry as the person can just carry a bunch of extra magazines.

As for why we have so many:
We have guns specifically for home defense, we have guns that are collectors items, we have guns that modeled after historical firearms (civil war type black powder rifles and pistols), we have guns that we shoot trap and skeet with, we have guns that we take to the range with to have fun. We have guns that we hunt with. We have guns that we handed down from other family members. I have a commemorative pistol that was a limited run just for my unit from my last deployment. My dad keeps a majority in a large safe when not in use and even I don't know the code. I keep my one pistol in it's originally purchased box unloaded and hidden out of view from anyone (I don't have a safe yet).

It's almost a sport to us. We don't go to competitions because we would lose badly, but we go to have fun together and learn more about the equipment we are using. We even reload/cast a majority of our own ammo because it's cheaper. It's dad's way to pass the time during his downtime from the farm.

I honestly don't know what types of regulations are ever going to solve this issue unless the person is dealt with first and foremost. I think it was this thread where the current gun legislation had another mental health legislation added on to it. Why? Why not make it separate. They are only doing it to bad mouth the people who vote against the gun legislation and say "Look, these guys voted against this mental health reform. They obviously don't want to help people."
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