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Old Feb 10, 2013, 12:41 PM   #101
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Why does the landlord care? The landlord doesn't pay the heating/cooling bills.
Tenants do, and they don't want to be paying extraordinary prices to heat or cool their apartments. So maybe the landlord gets away with it a time or two, but eventually, word would get around and people would just not live there.

This is off topic so I won't comment on it anymore. If you want to make a thread or request a mod move this to it's own thread than I'll discuss it there.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 12:43 PM   #102
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Why would a builder do that? Insulation isn't free.
.... because EVERY home is custom built (one at a time already sold/contracted); there are NO developments (other than lot divisions). It's up to the owner not the builder or regulator. Again misconceptions about living in the country ......
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 12:59 PM   #103
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Thanks to the lack of building regs I bet most homes cost an arm and a leg to heat...

And I bet you have more fire deaths than average...
Yeah, cause no one knows how to build a house properly without the government telling them how.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:00 PM   #104
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Why would a builder do that? Insulation isn't free.
Because the customer agrees to how the house will be built, and what will be put in it, this includes insulation, do you really think people will spend 100,000+ on a house and not make sure it is well made?
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:04 PM   #105
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... do you really think people will spend 100,000+ on a house and not make sure it is well made?
I'm sure it happens all the time.

Or else the assumption is 100% of the homes sold (over $100,000) are well made.

And I don't see how that could be true.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:06 PM   #106
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How are you going to find out how much the house costs to heat without living in it? And what about for houses for rent?
Basic fuel prices can tell you that.

Quote:
20 years after Europe did.
Funny, USA companies are leading on the cutting edge of home cooling and heating, the new Carrier Infinity systems are up to 28 SEER, that type of efficiently isnt even available in Europe.

Im sure you'll tell my my Ponitac G8 is worse than a Twingo because it doesn't get 58mpg? And its not made in Europe?

----------

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I'm sure it happens all the time.
I am sure it does not, everyone I know who has built a house spent lots of time talking with the builder, to make sure everything is exactly how they want it. When you are spending this kind of money, you are educated enough to talk to the builder, and make sure it is made how you want it.

The builder also won't build a bad house, it will ruin their reputation.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:09 PM   #107
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I'm sure it happens all the time.

Or else the assumption is 100% of the homes sold are well made.

And I don't see how that could be true.
With 7-10 builders in the county and 3-4 bankers, the bankers know each builder and their product personally. There are only 3 realtors in the county - they hunt and fish with the builders and bankers. No governmental interference is needed; builder doesn't have a good reputation the owner won't get a loan.

It gets pretty close to 100% if when you build one bad home you will never build another in the county (or adjoining counties either) .

Build 20 bad homes in San Diego County, don't finish some of them, get sued, declare bankruptcy, change the company name, get a new business license, and you are back building in the county .
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:11 PM   #108
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Yeah, cause no one knows how to build a house properly without the government telling them how.
Well I'm sure you can without government regulation - but builders are perfectly capable of cutting corners.

Just like farmers can produce food without the food standards agency - just that a few more people would die from bad food than with regulation.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:16 PM   #109
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.

With 7-10 builders in the county and 3-4 bankers, the bankers know each builder and their product personally. There are only 3 realtors in the county - they hunt and fish with the builders and bankers. No governmental interference is needed; builder doesn't have a good reputation the owner won't get a loan.

It gets pretty close to 100% if when you build one bad home you will never build another in the county (or adjoining counties either) .

Build 20 bad homes in San Diego County, don't finish some of them, get sued, declare bankruptcy, change the company name, get a new business license, and you are back building in the county .
Where are you getting you info from?

There are thousands of builders, you don't have to go to a big one, there are tons of local builders.

And lots of people also get loans from LOCAL banks, thats where I got mine.

Not everything in America is built by a huge company. I had my house built by a local builder, I got my 450,000 dollar loan from a small local bank, I went over the site, the property, and every single detail of my house with my local builder, and I got exactly what I wanted, couldn't be happier
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:19 PM   #110
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Where are you getting you info from?

There are thousands of builders, you don't have to go to a big one, there are tons of local builders.
Thousands of builders in a county of 10,000 ; can you even find Ozark County, Missouri on a map?

There isn't even one stoplight in the county, the nearest Wal-Mart is in Arkansas ........I actually live and built there; when I built there were 4 builders. According to the realtor: one drank too much, one built a good house but cost too much, the other 2 were reasonably priced and built good houses. The banker concurred.

THERE ARE STILL NO BUILDING CODES or Business Licensing outside county seat (Gainesville pop 629) city limits.

Last edited by TPadden; Feb 10, 2013 at 01:28 PM.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:28 PM   #111
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Basic fuel prices can tell you that.



Funny, USA companies are leading on the cutting edge of home cooling and heating, the new Carrier Infinity systems are up to 28 SEER, that type of efficiently isnt even available in Europe.

Im sure you'll tell my my Ponitac G8 is worse than a Twingo because it doesn't get 58mpg? And its not made in Europe?

----------



I am sure it does not, everyone I know who has built a house spent lots of time talking with the builder, to make sure everything is exactly how they want it. When you are spending this kind of money, you are educated enough to talk to the builder, and make sure it is made how you want it.

The builder also won't build a bad house, it will ruin their reputation.
With regards to heating costs - if you think they are dictated by fuel costs alone you're mistaken. A single brick single glaze uninsulated house will use probably 3-4x the fuel of a cavity wall insulated draft proof double glazed house.

With regards to the latter most people don't build their own houses - they usually buy them ready built.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:33 PM   #112
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With regards to heating costs - if you think they are dictated by fuel costs alone you're mistaken. A single brick single glaze uninsulated house will use probably 3-4x the fuel of a cavity wall insulated draft proof double glazed house.

With regards to the latter most people don't build their own houses - they usually buy them ready built.
I am talking if you are building your own house, you know whats in it, and how it will be insulated, its not hard to figure out how much it will cost to heat.

And yes, lots of people living in Tan Town buy their houses already built, but lots of people don't do that as well.

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Thousands of builders in a county of 10,000 ; can you even find Ozark County, Missouri on a map?

There isn't even one stoplight in the county, the nearest Wal-Mart is in Arkansas ........I actually live and built there; when I built there were 4 builders. According to the realtor: one drank too much, one built a good house but cost too much, the other 2 were reasonably priced and built good houses. The banker concurred.

THERE ARE STILL NO BUILDING CODES or Business Licensing outside county seat (Gainesville pop 629) city limits.
I am talking about America as a whole. Not just some ****** town in a ****** state :P
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:35 PM   #113
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Where are you getting you info from?.....
I now see where you got confused - I compared my building in Ozark county, Missouri with my experience in San Diego, Ca ...... sorry .

Never-mind I just read your next post and you just want to be argumentative/ difficult. Great that you can speak for America as a "hole" .
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:45 PM   #114
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I now see where you got confused - I compared my building in Ozark county, Missouri with my experience in San Diego, Ca ...... sorry .

Never-mind I just read your next post and you just want to be argumentative/ difficult. Great that you can speak for America as a "hole" .
Oh I am understanding now, I thought you were saying that America as a country only has a couple builders :P
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:48 PM   #115
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Oh I am understanding now, I thought you were saying that America as a country only has a couple builders :P
"With 7-10 builders in the county" ....... OK; now you fail in both reading comprehension and playing well with others .
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:55 PM   #116
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"With 7-10 builders in the county" ....... OK; now you fail in both reading comprehension and playing well with others .
I apologize for mis reading. It was not meant as any kind of personal attack.

And of course I do! Ive been drinking Bastille French whiskey since 10AM :P
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 01:59 PM   #117
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I apologize for mis reading. It was not meant as any kind of personal attack.

And of course I do! Ive been drinking Bastille French whiskey since 10AM :P
Then that explains the :P's that I might be misinterpreting (or not) as 's ...... either way it was fun playing .
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:16 PM   #118
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Then that explains the :P's that I might be misinterpreting (or not) as 's ...... either way it was fun playing .
Hahaha it does! Its been one of those weeks you know.!

I had the impression that you were like the douchebaggy Europeans I always meet in france who think they are better than everything, it seems I was not reading right, or walking right be honest hahaha :P
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:17 PM   #119
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I am sure it does not, everyone I know who has built a house spent lots of time talking with the builder, to make sure everything is exactly how they want it. When you are spending this kind of money, you are educated enough to talk to the builder, and make sure it is made how you want it.

The builder also won't build a bad house, it will ruin their reputation.
Excerpts from the Chicago Tribune Business section [bolding mine] ...

Quote:
Why new homes aren't perfect
Humans make mistakes, but housing boom, new products play a role, too
March 28, 2004|By John Handley, Tribune staff reporter

A brand new house should be perfect.

It should be defect-free. After all, it cost plenty. It's the most expensive purchase most people will make.

But, as the U.S. housing boom continues unabated, more homeowners are getting a dose of reality, which is: Houses are handmade. They are built over a period of time in many weather conditions. Defects are not only possible; they are probable. That boom also has resulted in a shortage of skilled labor. And new materials and construction methods have created a learning curve for some workers.

Alan Mooney, president of Criterium Engineers, a national real estate engineering firm based in Portland, Maine, explained why defects occur.

"Houses are built of wood, which is an imperfect material. They are built on earth, which can move, and on some sites that wouldn't have been considered 10 or 20 years ago. They are built out in the weather, not in a controlled atmosphere. They are built by people, who are not standardized or computerized. People can make mistakes."

Mooney said that nationwide as many as 15 percent of new residences have serious defects. He said the most common defects involve roofs and water intrusion in windows and doors.

"In the 19th Century, houses were built by master builders. Today, there is a lack of skilled craftsmen. Windows leak because they were not installed properly, not because they are defective. It's a challenge today to find skilled labor and supervisors," Mooney said.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...om-alan-mooney
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:42 PM   #120
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Excerpts from the Chicago Tribune Business section [bolding mine] ...
Quote:
Why new homes aren't perfect
Humans make mistakes, but housing boom, new products play a role, too
March 28, 2004|By John Handley, Tribune staff reporter
(bolding mine)

Do you think anything has changed since then?
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 02:45 PM   #121
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(bolding mine)

Do you think anything has changed since then?
The housing boom sure changed.

But that doesn't change the fact that houses were being built with defects.

Do you think that somehow in the last eight years that number dropped from 15% to 0%?

Do you believe that existing homes being sold are defect free?

To believe that would be the height of naiveté.

So I'd suggest you don't answer "yes" to those questions.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:03 PM   #122
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Because the customer agrees to how the house will be built, and what will be put in it, this includes insulation, do you really think people will spend 100,000+ on a house and not make sure it is well made?
You must be referring only to custom-built homes. Because I can assure you that many, many people buy $100,000+ on a house and have no idea exactly how well it's made. When we bought ours, along with the buyers of 409 other houses in our development, everything looked great. As it turns out, there were numerous building deficiencies, and they are starting to turn up in droves.

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Thousands of builders in a county of 10,000 ; can you even find Ozark County, Missouri on a map?

There isn't even one stoplight in the county, the nearest Wal-Mart is in Arkansas ........I actually live and built there; when I built there were 4 builders. According to the realtor: one drank too much, one built a good house but cost too much, the other 2 were reasonably priced and built good houses. The banker concurred.

THERE ARE STILL NO BUILDING CODES or Business Licensing outside county seat (Gainesville pop 629) city limits.
And do you think that no building codes is as reasonable for large metro areas as it might be for a town where everyone knows everyone else?

Do you honestly think that without building codes and inspections that builders (those who aren't building for a one-off client) will build an honest well-built house? No, for the most part they will cut corners and do it as cheaply and do whatever it takes to make it LOOK acceptable without doing it right.

Read my reply above. Our builder cut a lot of corners. Few were apparent at the time, but they are starting to show. I'm pretty sure his reputation is still solid outside of our community.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:05 PM   #123
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The housing boom sure changed.

But that doesn't change the fact that houses were being built with defects.

Do you think that somehow in the last eight years that number dropped from 15% to 0%?

Do you believe that existing homes being sold are defect free?

To believe that would be the height of naiveté.

So I'd suggest you don't answer "yes" to those questions.
Why so defensive? I was simply asking if you think anything had changed since then.

Like possibly (from the article you posted):
Quote:
That boom also has resulted in a shortage of skilled labor. And new materials and construction methods have created a learning curve for some workers.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:09 PM   #124
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The housing boom sure changed.

But that doesn't change the fact that houses were being built with defects.

Do you think that somehow in the last eight years that number dropped from 15% to 0%?

Do you believe that existing homes being sold are defect free?

To believe that would be the height of naiveté.

So I'd suggest you don't answer "yes" to those questions.
....... And I'd suggest it would be even more naive to believe increasing governmental regulations will reduce the defects. The point of diminishing returns in any cost benefit analysis is eventually reached and is the turn around point in everything BUT governmental endeavors .

It may seem to many that this discussion has really wandered off topic - I agree that it has wandered but disagree that it is off topic. For me it all boils down to where you see the solution to the problem, whether building a house or preventing firearm deaths, increasing regulation or increasing enforcement of current regulation.

Last edited by TPadden; Feb 10, 2013 at 03:34 PM.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 03:35 PM   #125
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....... And I'd suggest it would be even more naive to believe increasing governmental regulations will reduce the defects. The point of diminishing returns in any cost benefit analysis is eventually reached and is the turn around point in everything BUT governmental endeavors .
Yet I didn't address that question at all.

The question I addressed is below, bolded in red ...

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Because the customer agrees to how the house will be built, and what will be put in it, this includes insulation, do you really think people will spend 100,000+ on a house and not make sure it is well made?
There is nothing magical about houses or the $100,000 price that would prevent people from doing what they have been doing for millennia ... making mistakes ... cutting corners ... poor planning ... poor craftsmanship ... using poor materials ... or buying defective products.

None of those things is avoided simply because one spends $100,000 on a home.
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