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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:40 AM   #1
rdowns
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This is why we need national gun laws

Just shaking my head over "outraged" gun owners. I wonder where else this crap can happen. Oh yeah, good going Florida.

Penn. closes loophole allowing mail order of concealed gun permits from Florida


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Gun owners in Pennsylvania are expressing outraged after the state Attorney General announced that she was closing a loophole that allowed residents who were unqualified for a conceal-carry gun license to mail order permits from Florida.

Pennsylvania Attorney General Kathleen Kane on Friday said that gun owners would no longer to be able to use Florida’s more-relaxed rules to obtain a concealed-carry permit in order skirt Pennsylvania’s requirements.

“Our state’s gun traffic and permits should never be bypassed,” Kane explained at a press conference.

A “morals clause” in Pennsylvania’s gun law allowed cities like Philadelphia to reject permits based on “character or reputation” of the applicant. Florida has no such rule, and a loophole allowed Pennsylvania residents to mail order permits from the Sunshine State. A reciprocity agreement between the two states meant that Pennsylvania had to honor the Florida permits.


Raw Story (http://s.tt/1zDQG)
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:52 AM   #2
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All I can say is ......
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:57 AM   #3
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All I can say is ......
All I can say is Huh Penn. ? How is it someone can get a state issued permit from a different state than the one you reside in ?

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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:59 AM   #4
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Just shaking my head over "outraged" gun owners. I wonder where else this crap can happen. Oh yeah, good going Florida.

Penn. closes loophole allowing mail order of concealed gun permits from Florida
What does this have to do with Florida? Florida did not change any of their rules just Pennsylvania.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:01 PM   #5
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What does this have to do with Florida? Florida did not change any of their rules just Pennsylvania.
Is it not Florida issuing the license to someone from a different state than the one the licensee resides in ?

This is a states issue not a federal one.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:04 PM   #6
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What does this have to do with Florida? Florida did not change any of their rules just Pennsylvania.

The fact that Florida will issue a permit via mail order to an out of state person refused a permit elsewhere. I wonder if Florida does this for any of the other 35 or so states it has reciprocal agreements with.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:07 PM   #7
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Well idk about needing national gun laws. Maybe states just need to make theirs more effective.

Besides, how many people mail order their concealed carry permits?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:13 PM   #8
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Well idk about needing national gun laws. Maybe states just need to make theirs more effective.

Besides, how many people mail order their concealed carry permits?
Who cares how many people? The people who would be doing it would be the ones who probably shouldn't be carrying anyway. Whether that number is 10 or 1000, it's still too many.

Edit: From the article:

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Firearms instructor Richard Oliver told the Philadelphia Daily News that many of the 4,000 Pennsylvania gun owners who obtained Florida permits did so because the requirements in Philadelphia were too restrictive.
And regarding the mail order CCW - I wonder what requirements you would need and how you would prove them?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:14 PM   #9
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Well idk about needing national gun laws. Maybe states just need to make theirs more effective.

Besides, how many people mail order their concealed carry permits?
Who cares how many? Are you really OK with a state issuing a permit where another has denied it?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:16 PM   #10
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Who cares how many? Are you really OK with a state issuing a permit where another has denied it?
I didn't say I was ok with it, in fact, I said states should straighten out their laws. I was wondering just how big of a problem this was. Was everybody in the state doing it? Or a dozen people?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:19 PM   #11
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I didn't say I was ok with it, in fact, I said states should straighten out their laws. I was wondering just how big of a problem this was. Was everybody in the state doing it? Or a dozen people?

As the article stated, 4,000.

4,000 people running around with CCWs in a state that denied them. THat's ****ing crazy.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:21 PM   #12
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As the article stated, 4,000.

4,000 people running around with CCWs in a state that denied them. THat's ****ing crazy.
Ah, guess I missed it. Idk if I would call it "XXX" crazy. I think that's a little shrill. The state should react appropriately and cease letting these permits be issues, and go find the individuals that have had them issued and resolve the problem.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:26 PM   #13
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It only takes one person to go on a killing spree.

Or join the L.A.P.D.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:27 PM   #14
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Well idk about needing national gun laws. Maybe states just need to make theirs more effective.

Besides, how many people mail order their concealed carry permits?
Actually, I think relegating gun laws to the states has been a bad idea. First, we see a wide range of different laws, which makes it complicated and difficult for gun owners to know state law and requirements for concealed carry/open carry/transport.

Moreover, a single national law could beef up the NICS requirements and eliminate gun-walking from one state to another, which is effectively illegal though rarely prosecuted.

It would have to be a true compromise: gun owners might end up more restricted in some cases, but they'd get the benefit of regularization of gun laws. We could also take this opportunity to regularize the requirements of licensed dealers—that some keep records on napkins should be cause for a loss of license and failure to keep accurate, up-to-date records should come with prosecution.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:29 PM   #15
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Actually, I think relegating gun laws to the states has been a bad idea. First, we see a wide range of different laws, which makes it complicated and difficult for gun owners to know state law and requirements for concealed carry/open carry/transport.

Moreover, a single national law could beef up the NICS requirements and eliminate gun-walking from one state to another, which is effectively illegal though rarely prosecuted.

It would have to be a true compromise: gun owners might end up more restricted in some cases, but they'd get the benefit of regularization of gun laws. We could also take this opportunity to regularize the requirements of licensed dealers—that some keep records on napkins should be cause for a loss of license and failure to keep accurate, up-to-date records should come with prosecution.
Not necessarily a bad idea, but I think there will be a conflict because you'll have states such as California, with stricter gun laws competing against states that don't have laws as strict. So idk how you balance that out without banning things.

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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:30 PM   #16
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Florida still performs a NICS check and requires applicants provide fingerprints when applying for a non-resident CWFL. It would be nice to know the reasons why Pennsylvania denied these individuals a LTCF.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:33 PM   #17
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Florida still performs a NICS check and requires applicants provide fingerprints when applying for a non-resident CWFL. It would be nice to know the reasons why Pennsylvania denied these individuals a LTCF.
But do they have to show proof that they know how to shoot? That they've taken X hours of classes? Or can anyone just apply for it?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:36 PM   #18
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Only things I could think of is, not really surprised, most gun laws have bleeding holes in them due to politicians being in the pockets of the NRA.

The other thing, seeing the AG's name, I immediately thought of;




Yeah... I know, I read too many comics (and to explain the joke, Batwoman, an openly lesbian superheroine, is Gotham City socialite Kate Kane).
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:45 PM   #19
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Actually, I think relegating gun laws to the states has been a bad idea. First, we see a wide range of different laws, which makes it complicated and difficult for gun owners to know state law and requirements for concealed carry/open carry/transport.
Do you know the state laws in every state you visit? It is up to the individual to understand state and local firearms laws.

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Moreover, a single national law could beef up the NICS requirements and eliminate gun-walking from one state to another, which is effectively illegal though rarely prosecuted.

It is not illegal to purchase a rifle or handgun in a different state in which you reside. There are laws that must be followed (depending on state).

A long gun can purchased in many states and you can walk out with it. Some states will require the long gun be shipped to an FFL in your state.

A handgun can be purchased in many states. The handgun will have to be shipped to an FFL in your state.

A firearms dealer, gun shop, retail store or an FFL, is not going to jeopardize their license, and risk of jail time or fines.

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It would have to be a true compromise: gun owners might end up more restricted in some cases, but they'd get the benefit of regularization of gun laws. We could also take this opportunity to regularize the requirements of licensed dealers—that some keep records on napkins should be cause for a loss of license and failure to keep accurate, up-to-date records should come with prosecution.
There are already federal laws that regulate firearms dealers. Do you have a source for dealers that keep records on napkins? They are required to keep the form 4473 for each firearm sold for 20 years. The BATFE does audit dealers and FFL's at random, those that fail are fined and can lose their license.

Tell me, what would you change?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:47 PM   #20
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Not necessarily a bad idea, but I think there will be a conflict because you'll have states such as California, with stricter gun laws competing against states that don't have laws as strict. So idk how you balance that out without banning things.
This would require some serious negotiation between our national legislators—pauses for laughter— but we can compromise. I think giving up direct bans, while making requirements for ownership, sales, and even liability would be the way to go.

Bans that are limited to only a state or county are difficult to maintain and that might be worth horse-trading for a stronger regulation nationwide that still protects gun owners.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:52 PM   #21
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But do they have to show proof that they know how to shoot? That they've taken X hours of classes? Or can anyone just apply for it?
Yes.

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Florida law requires you to submit proof of competency with a firearm in order to qualify for a concealed weapon license. A copy of a CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION or similar document from any of the following courses or classes is acceptable:
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/fir...mentation.html

edit: Some states that require training for a CCW, will not honor a CCW from a state that does not require training for a CCW.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:55 PM   #22
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This would require some serious negotiation between our national legislators—pauses for laughter— but we can compromise. I think giving up direct bans, while making requirements for ownership, sales, and even liability would be the way to go.

Bans that are limited to only a state or county are difficult to maintain and that might be worth horse-trading for a stronger regulation nationwide that still protects gun owners.
Yeah, that sounds like a much better plan to solve this type of problem. I don't think I'd like to see liability, but it would depend on the details.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:55 PM   #23
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Why are states issuing permits of any kind to non-residents? You can't get a drivers license in a state you don't reside in, gun permits shouldn't be any different.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:56 PM   #24
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All I can say is Huh Penn. ? How is it someone can get a state issued permit from a different state than the one you reside in ?

That was my exact thought. Sounds like Florida needs to alter their laws as well. Why the heck was it legal to mail order a conceal carried license in the first place, much less to an entirely different state? So how does one go about closing this loophole? Do you stop the mail? Make it to where Florida is no longer able to to sell to PA residents? I'm still reading this thread, but was it legal to have one of these permits the whole time, or would someone have been prosecuted to having the improper permits if they were caught with it.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:01 PM   #25
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Do you know the state laws in every state you visit? It is up to the individual to understand state and local firearms laws.
Sure it is, but this seems like a problem. I've heard gun owners complain about the difficulties and confusion about transporting a gun across state lines, such as having a gun in the dash of a car. Can it be loaded? In which state? This isn't an ideal situation.

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...It is not illegal to purchase a rifle or handgun in a different state in which you reside. There are laws that must be followed (depending on state).

A long gun can purchased in many states and you can walk out with it. Some states will require the long gun be shipped to an FFL in your state.

A handgun can be purchased in many states. The handgun will have to be shipped to an FFL in your state.

A firearms dealer, gun shop, retail store or an FFL, is not going to jeopardize their license, and risk of jail time or fines.
Sure, but again, that depends on the state. Do you think that this causes problems and confusion?

Quote:
...There are already federal laws that regulate firearms dealers. Do you have a source for dealers that keep records on napkins? They are required to keep the form 4473 for each firearm sold for 20 years. The BATFE does audit dealers and FFL's at random, those that fail are fined and can lose their license.

Tell me, what would you change?
Sorry, not a napkin, but "water-stained sheets of paper" or "hand-scrawled index cards" as this NYTimes story notes, the ATF struggles with identifying the owner of a particular firearm.


One shop in Biggerville, Penn. couldn't account for 3,732 guns, but has remained open for 14 months after an ATF audit.

And, gun shops have openly fought requirements to help track firearms sales even for 'gun-walking' cases in Ariz.


As for what would I change, I'd require gun dealers to have a computerized system to track sales. A failure to properly do so would result in closure and liability, including fines and forfeiture. All weapons would be subject to NICS and gun sales would not be possible without transfer papers equivalent to the transfer of an automobile.
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