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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:04 PM   #26
webbuzz
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
This would require some serious negotiation between our national legislators—pauses for laughter— but we can compromise.
Reciprocity is already negotiated among states.

Here is a good resource showing reciprocity by state and type of resident.

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_ca...city_maps.html


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Bans that are limited to only a state or county are difficult to maintain and that might be worth horse-trading for a stronger regulation nationwide that still protects gun owners.
It goes beyond the state and county levels in some states. Illinois is a prime example, with two municipalities with their own firearms laws.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:05 PM   #27
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Anyone that goes through the effort to get a CCW is not usually who I'm worried about on the street.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:11 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
Reciprocity is already negotiated among states.

Here is a good resource showing reciprocity by state and type of resident.

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_ca...city_maps.html
Sure, but this still remains complicated. If this isn't a problem for gun owners then maybe we just need to continue on, but I don't think what we're doing works.


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...It goes beyond the state and county levels in some states. Illinois is a prime example, with two municipalities with their own firearms laws.
I thought Chicago's was actually for Cook County, but you're right, there are laws that are limited to municipalities, counties and states.

I'm merely trying to find some room for compromise to create good law based on what people have told me. I expect and even hope that everyone is unhappy to some degree, but I'm trying to discover what is fair and useful.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:11 PM   #29
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Anyone that goes through the effort to get a CCW is not usually who I'm worried about on the street.
It doesn't sound as if it required much effort in these cases.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:15 PM   #30
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It doesn't sound as if it required much effort in these cases.
It still required effort, which is not the trademark of someone who's looking to get into trouble.

It happens, but it's not the norm for gun crime.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:29 PM   #31
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Sure it is, but this seems like a problem. I've heard gun owners complain about the difficulties and confusion about transporting a gun across state lines, such as having a gun in the dash of a car. Can it be loaded? In which state? This isn't an ideal situation.

I make sure that I know the local laws. Understanding reciprocity is important as well.


Sure, but again, that depends on the state. Do you think that this causes problems and confusion?

No. The dealer or FFL understands the laws.

Sorry, not a napkin, but "water-stained sheets of paper" or "hand-scrawled index cards" as this NYTimes story notes, the ATF struggles with identifying the owner of a particular firearm.


One shop in Biggerville, Penn. couldn't account for 3,732 guns, but has remained open for 14 months after an ATF audit.

I agree, that is a problem and needs to be corrected.

And, gun shops have openly fought requirements to help track firearms sales even for 'gun-walking' cases in Ariz.


As for what would I change, I'd require gun dealers to have a computerized system to track sales. A failure to properly do so would result in closure and liability, including fines and forfeiture. All weapons would be subject to NICS and gun sales would not be possible without transfer papers equivalent to the transfer of an automobile.
From your article
Quote:
In his defense, Taylor said he began entering sales data into a computer in 2004, only to see it crash and wipe out his records. At an ATF hearing in Harrisburg in August 2011, Taylor was apologetic and promised to turn things around. But he met with little sympathy from the agency.

The BATFE couldn't even track 3,000 weapons during Fast and Furious, agents perjured themselves on 4473's and nothing has happened to them.

I do agree that shops like Taylors' should be shut down and fined.

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Originally Posted by skunk View Post
It doesn't sound as if it required much effort in these cases.
Background checks were performed (NICS).

Fingerprints are required.

Proof of training is required.

Same as a Pennsylvania LTCF.

----------

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Sure, but this still remains complicated. If this isn't a problem for gun owners then maybe we just need to continue on, but I don't think what we're doing works.
It is hit and miss. But, individuals should still understand local laws.


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I thought Chicago's was actually for Cook County, but you're right, there are laws that are limited to municipalities, counties and states.
Chicago firearms laws are more restrictive than Cook County, not by much though. Other cities within Cook County have restrictions on magazines
Franklin Park
Oak Park
Riverdale

The City of Aurora has restrictions on magazine capacity

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I'm merely trying to find some room for compromise to create good law based on what people have told me. I expect and even hope that everyone is unhappy to some degree, but I'm trying to discover what is fair and useful.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:43 PM   #32
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...The BATFE couldn't even track 3,000 weapons during Fast and Furious, agents perjured themselves on 4473's and nothing has happened to them.
And, you'll find my patience with the BATF's 'gun-walking' is equally limited. Those guys totally screwed up.

Quote:
...I do agree that shops like Taylors' should be shut down and fined.
These shops need to be professionalized, so to speak, so their records are accurate. With this, we can move toward a stronger NICS and try to ensure that people who shouldn't have weapons can't get them.

This isn't a silver bullet, but it's the place to start.

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...It is hit and miss. But, individuals should still understand local laws.
Sure, but we don't see such variability with other items of ownership, like cars, nor on rights: there isn't state variability on the First Amendment.


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...Chicago firearms laws are more restrictive than Cook County, not by much though. Other cities within Cook County have restrictions on magazines
Franklin Park
Oak Park
Riverdale

The City of Aurora has restrictions on magazine capacity...
Thanks for the clarification. I'm not well-versed on specific laws, especially in Illinois.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 05:55 PM   #33
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And, you'll find my patience with the BATF's 'gun-walking' is equally limited. Those guys totally screwed up.
If you buy the right-wing version hook, line and sinker.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 05:58 PM   #34
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If you buy the right-wing version hook, line and sinker.
What version is that?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 06:17 PM   #35
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Hitler... disarmed..... Germany
Stalin.... disarmed...... Russia
Mao........ disarmed....... China

Once there was The _United_ States Of America

Now it's all about playing the victim & blaming one party (not mine) it's about piling more laws on top of the un-enforced existing laws, its about talking points and more government.

Fasten your seatbelts boys & girls, it's gonna get rough.

Think not? Think again.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 06:36 PM   #36
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What version is that?
The right-wing one.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 06:42 PM   #37
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The right-wing one.
That's your response?

Not surprised at all.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 07:16 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by maxosx View Post
Hitler... disarmed..... Germany
Stalin.... disarmed...... Russia
Mao........ disarmed....... China

Once there was The _United_ States Of America

Now it's all about playing the victim & blaming one party (not mine) it's about piling more laws on top of the un-enforced existing laws, its about talking points and more government.

Fasten your seatbelts boys & girls, it's gonna get rough.

Think not? Think again.
Made me think of this graphic.



On a more base level, I'd rather have a political acumen that was closer to any of the founders, than any socialist, communist or dictator.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxosx View Post
Hitler... disarmed..... Germany
Stalin.... disarmed...... Russia
Mao........ disarmed....... China

Once there was The _United_ States Of America

Now it's all about playing the victim & blaming one party (not mine) it's about piling more laws on top of the un-enforced existing laws, its about talking points and more government.

Fasten your seatbelts boys & girls, it's gonna get rough.

Think not? Think again.
The idea that Hitler "disarmed Germany" is false. It's a fantasy.

In reality he made it easier for Germans to acquire guns. He removed the regulations restricting the purchase of rifles, shotguns and ammunition, lowered the age requirement for purchasing guns still covered by the regulations, and expanded the number of people who were exempt from the remaining permit requirements.....for Germans it became easier to acquire guns under Hitler than it had been before him
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:38 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
That's your response?

Not surprised at all.
My apologies. I was at work and didn't have the time to look up this article from CNN / Fortune. I suggest anybody with the time and inclination to read it. It will present a perspective on F&F that goes well beyond the cartoonish depiction right-wing sources spewed these past few years.

Quote:
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

By Katherine Eban
Now before you leap to the assumption that I take this article as gospel and 100% true ... you'd be wrong. I don't believe everything written in it. On the other hand I also don't believe the right-wing version of the story which had the FBI virtually handing guns across the border in order to incite violence and frighten U.S. citizens into backing more stringent gun restrictions. Where does the truth lie? IMO, somewhere in between.

Sorry to inject a little nuance into the discussion. I do understand how little that's appreciated around here.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:48 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Made me think of this graphic.

Image

On a more base level, I'd rather have a political acumen that was closer to any of the founders, than any socialist, communist or dictator.
Dude, you need to turn off Fox News.

That graphic is offensive. And frankly, it's ignorant. Amazing how selective you guys can be with your "historical" examples.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:52 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
My apologies. I was at work and didn't have the time to look up this article from CNN / Fortune. I suggest anybody with the time and inclination to read it. It will present a perspective on F&F that goes well beyond the cartoonish depiction right-wing sources spewed these past few years.
Here is an article from ABC and Univision, neither of which are "right-wing" sources.

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/...ry?id=17352694


Quote:
Now before you leap to the assumption that I take this article as gospel and 100% true ... you'd be wrong. I don't believe everything written in it. On the other hand I also don't believe the right-wing version of the story which had the FBI virtually handing guns across the border in order to incite violence and frighten U.S. citizens into backing more stringent gun restrictions. Where does the truth lie? IMO, somewhere in between.
By making statements like "cartoonish depiction of right-wing sources spewed these last few years." It is fairly safe to assume what you believe.

Thank you for the updated response.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:55 PM   #43
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By making statements like "cartoonish depiction of right-wing sources spewed these last few years." It is fairly safe to assume what you believe.
And what do I believe?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:57 PM   #44
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Dude, you need to turn off Fox News.

That graphic is offensive. And frankly, it's ignorant. Amazing how selective you guys can be with your "historical" examples.

I don't have cable, so watching Fox News is impossible for me
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:57 PM   #45
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And what do I believe?
Not the right-wing one?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 08:58 PM   #46
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Not the right-wing one?
Which one?
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 09:01 PM   #47
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The idea that Hitler "disarmed Germany" is false. It's a fantasy.

In reality he made it easier for Germans to acquire guns. He removed the regulations restricting the purchase of rifles, shotguns and ammunition, lowered the age requirement for purchasing guns still covered by the regulations, and expanded the number of people who were exempt from the remaining permit requirements.....for Germans it became easier to acquire guns under Hitler than it had been before him
Thankfully the Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 is well documented

Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.

Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew's possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation.

§3
The Minister of the Interior may make exceptions to the Prohibition in §1 for Jews who are foreign nationals. He can entrust other authorities with this power.


I guess Jews were not Germans since it became so easy for Germans...
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 09:03 PM   #48
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Why are states issuing permits of any kind to non-residents? You can't get a drivers license in a state you don't reside in, gun permits shouldn't be any different.
Because not all states recognize your home state issued CHL.

For example, I live in Oregon and have an Oregon CHL, but Washington does not recognize Oregon CHL's. I regularly cross the state line because, so for me to legally carry my concealed handgun, I have to have a non-resident Washington CHL, or a CHL issued by a state which Washington does recognize such as Utah.

The difference with drivers licenses is that they are universally valid in all states, where CHL's are not. There have been proposals for national concealed handgun licenses, none have ever made it far in Congress.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 09:15 PM   #49
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Thankfully the Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 is well documented

Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.

Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew's possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation.

§3
The Minister of the Interior may make exceptions to the Prohibition in §1 for Jews who are foreign nationals. He can entrust other authorities with this power.


I guess Jews were not Germans since it became so easy for Germans...
Seriously? Do you really think that Hitler considered the Jews German?

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I don't have cable, so watching Fox News is impossible for me
Then turn off FoxNews.com, because my mom sent that e-mail to me weeks ago....and that is not a compliment.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 09:18 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Thankfully the Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 is well documented

Jews (§5 of the First Regulations of the German Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935, Reichsgesetzblatt I, p. 1333) are prohibited from acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons. Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority.

Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew's possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation.

§3
The Minister of the Interior may make exceptions to the Prohibition in §1 for Jews who are foreign nationals. He can entrust other authorities with this power.


I guess Jews were not Germans since it became so easy for Germans...
yep the jews had been stripped of their citizenship. And when it came to guns, or their lives, jews didn't have much in the way of rights about anything. They were less than 1% of the population so claiming that the rules for them were what "Germany" faced is just a sham.

The fact remains that for the overwhelming majority of germans, Hitler made it easier to acquire guns.......claiming he disarmed Germany is simply false, no matter how you try to misrepresent it

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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Seriously? Do you really think that Hitler considered the Jews German? [COLOR="#808080"]
in fact they'd been stripped of their citizenship several years before and told they should leave the country

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