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Old Feb 11, 2013, 09:33 PM   #51
Moyank24
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Originally Posted by Macky-Mac View Post
yep the jews had been stripped of their citizenship. And when it came to guns, or their lives, jews didn't have much in the way of rights about anything.

The fact remains that for the overwhelming majority of germans, Hitler made it easier to acquire guns.......claiming he disarmed Germany is simply false, no matter how you try to misrepresent it



in fact they'd been stripped of their citizenship several years before and told they should leave the country
Exactly.

I hate when pesky facts get in the way of internet propaganda. Someone needs to ask for a refund from their history professor...
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 09:38 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Exactly.

I hate when pesky facts get in the way of internet propaganda. Someone needs to ask for a refund from their history professor...
even neo-nazis are pissed at gun rights advocates for this fraudulent claim

their view about nazis and guns;

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The spirit of National Socialism was one of manliness, and individual self-defense and self- reliance were central to the National Socialist view of the way a citizen should behave. The notion of banning firearms ownership was utterly alien to National Socialism.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 02:49 AM   #53
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I live in PA, I'm not surprised.

People here are stupid and don't care about truth and facts. They only hear what they want and love to become outraged over everything.*

There are many people I know who still think their weapons are going to be confiscated, that Obama is the anti-christ (my own Mom even said that ), and that the government is going to force everyone into Fema camps and shoot us all.


Oh and many people here worship Fox News.

*And yes, I know its not everyone in PA, especially in the larger cities it seems but there are a lot of them.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 03:29 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Macky-Mac View Post
yep the jews had been stripped of their citizenship. And when it came to guns, or their lives, jews didn't have much in the way of rights about anything. They were less than 1% of the population so claiming that the rules for them were what "Germany" faced is just a sham.

The fact remains that for the overwhelming majority of germans, Hitler made it easier to acquire guns.......claiming he disarmed Germany is simply false, no matter how you try to misrepresent it



in fact they'd been stripped of their citizenship several years before and told they should leave the country

Just so we are clear, because it sounds pretty repugnant, anti gun laws weren't really anti gun laws because it affected Jews, and according to NAZI's Jews don't count.

If that is your justification, do the ghetto's count? How about the concentration camps? Gas chambers. It's only "1%". Just a little spilt milk...

Never-mind that for a moment, lets back up, the NAZI gun confiscations that took place in 1933, when Hitler took power, using weapon registration records from the 1928 law; that never happened? Or does that not count either because it only affected those that were "politically unreliable?"

NAZI's said it was okay, so it must be.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:35 AM   #55
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Just shaking my head over "outraged" gun owners. I wonder where else this crap can happen. Oh yeah, good going Florida.

Penn. closes loophole allowing mail order of concealed gun permits from Florida
Didn't read the entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not.

PA is a "shall issue" state, meaning that unless someone has criminal record, has been 302'd, etc..the local Sheriff is required to issue a license to carry firearms. The problem is, Philadelphia blatantly ignores this law, and has a history of denying people for things like unpaid traffic tickets to basically not showing "a need". This is why people were getting FL permits.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:36 AM   #56
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Just so we are clear, because it sounds pretty repugnant, anti gun laws weren't really anti gun laws because it affected Jews, and according to NAZI's Jews don't count.

If that is your justification, do the ghetto's count? How about the concentration camps? Gas chambers. It's only "1%". Just a little spilt milk...

Never-mind that for a moment, lets back up, the NAZI gun confiscations that took place in 1933, when Hitler took power, using weapon registration records from the 1928 law; that never happened? Or does that not count either because it only affected those that were "politically unreliable?"

NAZI's said it was okay, so it must be.
Your example was a horriffic one. Let's not make it worse by turning it around on those who actually understand what those laws passed by Hitler meant. By 1938 they had been completely stripped of most of their freedoms.

And to compare a dictator taking freedoms from and removing citizenship from a group of people he tried to eradicate to Obama passing gun legislation is completely ridiculous. And offensive. Hitler also sent gays to concentration camps. So, it is fair to compare everyone who opposes gay rights to Hitler?

It's important to note that gun laws enacted by the Weimar Republic were probably much stricter than what Hitler followed up with. It's also clear that Hitler coming into and maintaining power really had nothing to do with the gun laws at the time. The Nazi's didn't seize power against a gunless society. They got themselves elected.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:24 AM   #57
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PA is a "shall issue" state, meaning that unless someone has criminal record, has been 302'd, etc..the local Sheriff is required to issue a license to carry firearms.
That's a scary thought. Training required? Testing? Comeptency? Anything? Or just "Hey man, I want to carry a gun!" "OK, good on yous! Here's your license!"
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:54 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Just so we are clear, because it sounds pretty repugnant, anti gun laws weren't really anti gun laws because it affected Jews, and according to NAZI's Jews don't count.

If that is your justification, do the ghetto's count? How about the concentration camps? Gas chambers. It's only "1%". Just a little spilt milk...

Never-mind that for a moment, lets back up, the NAZI gun confiscations that took place in 1933, when Hitler took power, using weapon registration records from the 1928 law; that never happened? Or does that not count either because it only affected those that were "politically unreliable?"

NAZI's said it was okay, so it must be.
No, you're totally wrong about both what I said and the claim that Hitler "disarmed Germany".

As you said previously, "Thankfully the Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 is well documented"......and the facts clearly show that this act did not "disarm Germany" but quite the opposite, it loosened the existing gun laws in Germany.

You can posture all you want about the horror that Hitler did to the Jews, but it doesn't convert a fantasy into a fact.......if you were saying Hitler disarmed the Jews, you'd be right, but that's simply not the same as "disarmed Germany" which means he disarmed the entire country, took guns away from every German so that the citizens were unarmed........saying that happened is simply a misrepresentation.

What does the Anti-Defamation League say about the kind of claim you're making about Hitler and gun control?

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...historically inaccurate and offensive, especially to Holocaust survivors and their families...
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:57 AM   #59
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All I can say is Huh Penn. ? How is it someone can get a state issued permit from a different state than the one you reside in ?

How is it? It becomes "how" when the "end justifies the means". That "end" is spreading conceal and carry from border to border. Not surprised this comes from Florida, which I don't understand, how they can justify this, issuing permits to people who are not Florida State residents? Oh yea, spread the wealth to the citizens of poor confused States like Pa who do not see the light.

My question: Where these Fl based permits every recognized by the Pa law enforcement and judicial system?
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 10:15 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Your example was a horriffic one. Let's not make it worse by turning it around on those who actually understand what those laws passed by Hitler meant. By 1938 they had been completely stripped of most of their freedoms.

And to compare a dictator taking freedoms from and removing citizenship from a group of people he tried to eradicate to Obama passing gun legislation is completely ridiculous. And offensive. Hitler also sent gays to concentration camps. So, it is fair to compare everyone who opposes gay rights to Hitler?

It's important to note that gun laws enacted by the Weimar Republic were probably much stricter than what Hitler followed up with. It's also clear that Hitler coming into and maintaining power really had nothing to do with the gun laws at the time. The Nazi's didn't seize power against a gunless society. They got themselves elected.
That's a lot of dancing and spinning and injecting of the irrelevant.

Did Hitler use licensing and registration records as a means to deny people the right to bear arms as far back as 1933? Yup

Was this before the 1935 Nuremberg Laws? Yup

Was there confiscations? Yup

Was there political profiling to deny people the right to bear arms because the NAZI's thought they were danger to a state? Yup

All this is true, and for you to happily jump in head first and support the idea that it doesn't really count because only Jews were overwhelmingly affected and the NAZI's said it was "ok" is pretty disgusting. In your words this is just "internet propaganda", right?

And for the record, I said nothing about citizenship, so that's a strawman fail. That was your boy Macky-Mac who not only supports his position with a quote from a Neo-Nazi website, but agrees that stripping of gun ownership rights didn't really happen because it was only a few Jews (and German political undesirables) and NAZI's said it was okay.
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Last edited by Technarchy; Feb 12, 2013 at 10:38 AM.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 10:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
That's a lot of dancing and spinning and injecting of the irrelevant.

Did Hitler use licensing and registration records as a means to deny people the right to bear arms as far back as 1933? Yup

Was this before the 1935 Nuremberg Laws? Yup

Was there confiscations? Yup

Was there political profiling to deny people the right to bear arms because the NAZI's thought they were danger to a state? Yup

All this is true, and for you to happily jump in head first and support the idea that it doesn't really count because only Jews were overwhelmingly affected and the NAZI's said it was "ok" is pretty disgusting. In your words this is just "internet propaganda", right?

And for the record, I said nothing about citizenship, so that's a strawman fail. That was your boy Macky-Mac who not only supports his position with a quote from a Neo-Nazi website, but agrees that stripping of gun ownership rights didn't really happen because it was only a few Jews (and German political undesirables) and NAZI's said it was okay.
You have no clue about historical context. Absolutely none. Or you are choosing to ignore it.

Nobody is saying that it "didn't really happen" because it was Jews. However, by that time Jews had been stripped of everything. The point, however, that gun advocates are trying to make is a complete fail when using these laws as an example.

There's a reason why Hitler is used an example of someone who disarmed a nation in an effort to seize and maintain control. To scare people into equating what happened in Germany to what could happen here.

It's historically inaccurrate and a completely offensive comparison to make.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:10 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Nobody is saying that it "didn't really happen" because it was Jews. However, by that time Jews had been stripped of everything. The point, however, that gun advocates are trying to make is a complete fail when using these laws as an example.


It's historically inaccurrate and a completely offensive comparison to make.
The first confiscations that relied on licensing and registration records took place in 1933 before the Nuremberg Laws. Jews, communists, artists and anyone else regarded as politically dangerous were the targets. Long before before Kristallnacht and Warsaw, so how were Jews "stripped of everything"?

It just happens that aspiring tyrants and power hungry oligarchs are master incrementalists, which results in a lot of "It's not me affected, it's those other people", only until it isn't.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:14 AM   #63
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The first confiscations that relied on licensing and registration records took place in 1933 before the Nuremberg Laws. Jews, communists, artists and anyone else regarded as politically dangerous were the targets. Long before before Kristallnacht and Warsaw, so how were Jews "stripped of everything"?

It just happens that aspiring tyrants and power hungry oligarchs are master incrementalists, which results in a lot of "It's not me, it's those other people", only until it isn't.
Your example was the law in 1938....That's what we were responding to.

I understand what happened in Germany. And how the Jews were slowly and surely relieved of all of their rights.

My point still stands. To compare what happened with Hitler in Germany to Obama's gun legislatioin today is absolutely historically inaccurate and completely offensive.

Gun advocates are using that example to scare people. History be damned.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:21 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
....Macky-Mac who not only supports his position with a quote from a Neo-Nazi website, but agrees that stripping of gun ownership rights didn't really happen because it was only a few Jews (and German political undesirables) and NAZI's said it was okay.
I think your misrepresentations are doing more damage to your position than you imagine.

I'd say the ADL has you figured out


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the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today called on critics of gun control legislation to stop using references to Hitler and the Nazis, saying they are "historically inaccurate and offensive," especially to Holocaust survivors and their families.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:45 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post

My point still stands. To compare what happened with Hitler in Germany to Obama's gun legislatioin today is absolutely historically inaccurate and completely offensive.
Explain the difference

----------

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Originally Posted by Macky-Mac View Post
I think your misrepresentations are doing more damage to your position than you imagine.

I'd say the ADL has you figured out
I think the ADL with take issue with you using Neo NAZI's as a supporting argument, which you actually did, or is that mis-representing you?
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:48 AM   #66
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Explain the difference

----------



I think the ADL with take issue with you using Neo NAZI's as a supporting argument, which you actually did, or is that mis-representing you?
I'm not going to give you a history lesson.

Obama isn't taking your guns away. The people who are using fear and misinformation in an effort to get those like you on their side are doing you a disservice. Ask them to explain it to you.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 12:00 PM   #67
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Explain the difference

----------



I think the ADL with take issue with you using Neo NAZI's as a supporting argument, which you actually did, or is that mis-representing you?
I pointed out that neo-nazis are pissed at the anti-gun control crowd for claiming Hitler disarmed germany..........the spin beyond that is all yours.

There's more than a little irony in that the ADL and neo-nazis are both saying your story is false.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 12:20 PM   #68
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I'm not going to give you a history lesson.
You mean you can't explain the difference, which is what I expected.

However I am getting bored with this thread, so I am checking out.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 12:28 PM   #69
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You mean you can't explain the difference, which is what I expected.

However I am getting bored with this thread, so I am checking out.
Please do. And while you're at it, check into a history lesson.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 12:59 PM   #70
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If you buy the right-wing version hook, line and sinker.
No. The FF program was a total cock-up. The right-wing version, with it's conspiracies about Holder and Obama and the idea that the program was a precursor to major gun legislation was the scam.

But, the ATF program was a mess.

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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
You have no clue about historical context. Absolutely none. Or you are choosing to ignore it.

Nobody is saying that it "didn't really happen" because it was Jews. However, by that time Jews had been stripped of everything. The point, however, that gun advocates are trying to make is a complete fail when using these laws as an example.

There's a reason why Hitler is used an example of someone who disarmed a nation in an effort to seize and maintain control. To scare people into equating what happened in Germany to what could happen here.

It's historically inaccurrate and a completely offensive comparison to make.
It's easy to pluck Hitler's 1938 gun law out of history, but that completely ignores the relationship between the rising Nazi power (including Hitler's Sturm Abteilung or "Brown Shirts") and the gun laws that existed in the Weimar Republic.

Moreover, the uprising at the Warsaw ghetto illustrates just how limited the ability for a small minority is to protect themselves against a massive modern army. The Jews killed 20 Germans and endured more than 13,000 casualties. The survivors were shipped off to concentration camps.

As for Stalin's regime, they were easily to willing to arm millions to fight Hitler's army, but they just as easily disappeared those soldiers to Gulags if they uttered a word of discontent.

What the pro-gun people don't get it that the right to bear arms is, at it's very best, a stool's leg. Without the freedom to speak and the press, without the freedom to congregate, without privacy, the gun fails to protect citizens from secret prisons and concentrated violence.

Small groups, like the Bielski Partisans were able to conduct sabotage and guerrilla campaigns against the German Army, but this was rare.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 01:58 PM   #71
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No. The FF program was a total cock-up.
Please elaborate.

Have you read the Fortune article?
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 02:10 PM   #72
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We don't need National Gun laws ...we just need men in America to start acting like men.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 03:31 PM   #73
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We don't need National Gun laws ...we just need men in America to start acting like men.
We'd all be better off if men started acting more like women.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 03:36 PM   #74
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We don't need National Gun laws ...we just need men in America to start acting like men.
Is this satire?
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 07:48 PM   #75
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We'd all be better off if men started acting more like women.
Because women aren't violent?
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