Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:18 PM   #1
tshrimp
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Solar Induatry Waste

I found this today, and was surprised to see that there was more waste associated with Solar than I would have thought.

http://news.yahoo.com/solar-industry...184714679.html
tshrimp is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:26 PM   #2
VulchR
macrumors 68000
 
VulchR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Scotland
I am sure they will work it out. Perhaps if we stopped subsidizing fossil fuels we could spend more money reducing the green footprint of renewables even further. Quite apart from anything, fossil fuels will run out even if they do not cause catastrophic greenhouse warming (which they probably will), and the impact of nuclear accidents is very high. Thus to me, developing solar and and wind energy is a no-brainer.
__________________
My first was a Mac+. Now I own an iPhone with 3.5x the pixels, a colour display, WiFi, 512x the RAM, >1500x the data storage, and 100x the speed. And it fits in the palm of my hand.
VulchR is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:27 PM   #3
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
OMG! I thought it was just sunshine and rainbows!

citizenzen is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:55 PM   #4
iMikeT
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: California
What is Solar Induatry waste?
iMikeT is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 12, 2013, 10:11 AM   #5
PracticalMac
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMikeT View Post
What is Solar Induatry waste?
That's where used Fotons go.
__________________
FireWire 1394 Intelligent network guaranteed data transfer, 1500mA power, Ethernet compatible
Read: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 70% faster then USB2
Write: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 48% faster
PracticalMac is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 14, 2013, 01:56 PM   #6
Zombie Acorn
macrumors 65816
 
Zombie Acorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Seems like a smear campaign, at the very least they are sending the toxic materials to be processed at a facility opposed to sending pollution into the air.
__________________
--2.6 C2Q 4gb DDR3 GTX 260-Win 7--
--2.0 CE Macbook Alum-Leopard--
Zombie Acorn is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 02:49 AM   #7
vvswarup
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
I am sure they will work it out. Perhaps if we stopped subsidizing fossil fuels we could spend more money reducing the green footprint of renewables even further. Quite apart from anything, fossil fuels will run out even if they do not cause catastrophic greenhouse warming (which they probably will), and the impact of nuclear accidents is very high. Thus to me, developing solar and and wind energy is a no-brainer.
What's funny is that the picture you are painting about subsidies is the opposite of what's actually happening. Fossil fuels are able to survive without subsidies. Oil companies, i.e. companies engaged in exploration/production of oil and gas get subsidies. I don't know of fossil fuel power plants getting subsidies.

And solar and wind are at present unable to survive without a government subsidy.
vvswarup is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 08:34 AM   #8
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post
What's funny is that the picture you are painting about subsidies is the opposite of what's actually happening. Fossil fuels are able to survive without subsidies. Oil companies, i.e. companies engaged in exploration/production of oil and gas get subsidies. I don't know of fossil fuel power plants getting subsidies.

And solar and wind are at present unable to survive without a government subsidy.
Excerpts from the New York Times Business section ...

Quote:
Cost of Subsidizing Fossil Fuels Is High, but Cutting Them Is Tough
By JAMES KANTER
Published: October 23, 2011


BRUSSELS The bankruptcy this summer of Solyndra a solar company heavily subsidized by the U.S. government unleashed a torrent of concern about the risks of wasting taxpayer money on renewable-energy projects.

But what are the effects of subsidies that continue to flow to fossil fuels?

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a group in Paris that advises mostly high-income nations on their economies, said this month that these supports were worth as much as $75 billion each year in 24 of its 34 member countries.

Egypt, Libya and Venezuela were among countries that kept the costs of fuel at less than half world market prices last year, according to a report this month from the International Energy Agency, which is part of the O.E.C.D. and advises member countries on energy policy.

In Saudi Arabia, low energy prices represented a subsidy of $1,587 for each citizen, according to the I.E.A.

All told, this form of subsidy rose $109 billion to reach $409 billion last year, as governments tried to shield citizens from pricier fuels on world markets, the I.E.A. said. Under current trends, that sum will hit $660 billion by the end of the decade, it said.

The executive director of the I.E.A., Maria van der Hoeven, said this month that these subsidies skewed the playing field for renewable technologies by encouraging people to keep using large quantities of fossil fuels and diminishing the competitiveness of alternatives.

To be sure, most forms of renewable energy still are more heavily subsidized than fossil fuels based on each unit of energy produced.

But, over all, subsidies for fossil fuels dwarf the amounts governments spend on sources like wind and solar energy and biofuels. These renewable sources received $57 billion in 2009, according to the most recent figure from the I.E.A.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/bu...ough.html?_r=0
citizenzen is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:20 AM   #9
PracticalMac
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post
What's funny is that the picture you are painting about subsidies is the opposite of what's actually happening. Fossil fuels are able to survive without subsidies. Oil companies, i.e. companies engaged in exploration/production of oil and gas get subsidies. I don't know of fossil fuel power plants getting subsidies.

And solar and wind are at present unable to survive without a government subsidy.
At least Wind and Solar is not a source of wars and murder.
__________________
FireWire 1394 Intelligent network guaranteed data transfer, 1500mA power, Ethernet compatible
Read: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 70% faster then USB2
Write: 160 files, 650MB total, FW400 48% faster
PracticalMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 09:55 PM   #10
Sydde
macrumors 68000
 
Sydde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post
What's funny is that the picture you are painting about subsidies is the opposite of what's actually happening. Fossil fuels are able to survive without subsidies. Oil companies, i.e. companies engaged in exploration/production of oil and gas get subsidies. I don't know of fossil fuel power plants getting subsidies.

And solar and wind are at present unable to survive without a government subsidy.
It is really not possible to make outright categorical assertions like that. There do appear to be some subsidies related to deployment and operation of fossil fuel power generation, though they are quite a bit smaller than the direct subsidies for "green" power. The quantitative difference falls in a range somewhere between a factor of two and a half and 154x favoring fossil fuels.

The other side of the coin is externalities, which falls between favoring fossil fuels by a factor of around four and a half to favoring "green" by 119x. One cannot discount the overall effects that exploration and use of fossil fuels have on the environment, something that is largely missing from "green" resources. Not to mention, of course, that war thing.

source (pdf)

Wind and solar energy do require significant energy input at the manufacturing end, which ends up, once again, being the province of other energy sources you cannot build a modern wind generation tower without a lot of metalworking, the energy for which just may not be practically available except through the use of fossil fuels. The same is basically true for solar power generation, either photovoltaic or steam-turbine.

So, in the end, the picture is anything but clear. The only truly reliable source of power is simply to eliminate the enormous amount of it that we waste in the first place. Conservation is really not that hard, folks.
__________________
You got to be a spirit. You can't be no ghost.
Sydde is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 25, 2013, 05:02 AM   #11
VulchR
macrumors 68000
 
VulchR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Originally Posted by vvswarup View Post
What's funny is that the picture you are painting about subsidies is the opposite of what's actually happening. Fossil fuels are able to survive without subsidies. Oil companies, i.e. companies engaged in exploration/production of oil and gas get subsidies. I don't know of fossil fuel power plants getting subsidies.
UK oil production is set to increase because the UK government reduced taxes on oil, and that's just one counterexample of many I can think of. Also, oil and gas companies do not pay for the environmental damage they do, and that is a huge subsidy. For instance, it seems that global warming is causing more extreme weather (Superstorm Sandy comes to mind), and the failure of the oil companies to pay for the damages means that you and I subsidize them by paying increased insurance fees.

Quote:
And solar and wind are at present unable to survive without a government subsidy.
Depends on what you mean by compete. Economically, they cannot compete because of the various subsidies given to oil companies. However, in terms of energy security, they win. In terms of reducing greenhouse gases they win. In terms of being able to democratize energy away from monopolistic, corrupt multi-nationals they win.
__________________
My first was a Mac+. Now I own an iPhone with 3.5x the pixels, a colour display, WiFi, 512x the RAM, >1500x the data storage, and 100x the speed. And it fits in the palm of my hand.
VulchR is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 26, 2013, 07:33 PM   #12
Spectrum Abuser
macrumors 65816
 
Spectrum Abuser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Solar energy is a waste. The panels themselves are far too inefficient and even with subsidization too expensive.
__________________
iPad Mini Retina 16GB WiFi - iPhone 4 16GB (AT&T) - 21.5" iMac 2.5Ghz i5 (2011)
Spectrum Abuser is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2013, 10:22 AM   #13
mcrain
Banned
 
mcrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrum Abuser View Post
Solar energy is a waste. The panels themselves are far too inefficient and even with subsidization too expensive.
That's exactly what the first nonphotosynthetic plant said to the first green leafy plant.
mcrain is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 11, 2013, 02:02 AM   #14
spyguy10709
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: One Infinite Loop, Cupertino CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
I am sure they will work it out. Perhaps if we stopped subsidizing fossil fuels we could spend more money reducing the green footprint of renewables even further. Quite apart from anything, fossil fuels will run out even if they do not cause catastrophic greenhouse warming (which they probably will), and the impact of nuclear accidents is very high. Thus to me, developing solar and and wind energy is a no-brainer.
Oh, okay. $10 A gallon gas because our government is too weak to stand up to the Oil lobbies and build more refineries AND no subsidies? Great.

We don't need more spending. Look at tesla. If it's profitable or can be someday, it will get made. If it's not profitable and won't be (most solar companies not in China) it won't get made.
__________________
Last edited by spyguy10709; Tomorrow at 07:10 AM.
spyguy10709 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 11, 2013, 02:33 PM   #15
Spectrum Abuser
macrumors 65816
 
Spectrum Abuser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
That's exactly what the first nonphotosynthetic plant said to the first green leafy plant.
Cute. I'm not going to pay $399 for a 250W solar panel plus the cost for a DC to AC converter plus the cost for a couple of batteries plus shipping and handling and an installation charge for the panel, though. That same 250W of energy could be bought for a whopping two cents from the electric company.
__________________
iPad Mini Retina 16GB WiFi - iPhone 4 16GB (AT&T) - 21.5" iMac 2.5Ghz i5 (2011)
Spectrum Abuser is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 11, 2013, 03:16 PM   #16
elistan
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Denver/Boulder, CO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrum Abuser View Post
Cute. I'm not going to pay $399 for a 250W solar panel plus the cost for a DC to AC converter plus the cost for a couple of batteries plus shipping and handling and an installation charge for the panel, though. That same 250W of energy could be bought for a whopping two cents from the electric company.
250 W is a measure of power, FWIW, not energy. 250 Wh is energy. Let's say that the 250 W panel outputs 25 W of power on average (there's nightime, clouds, and deterioration of the panel...) 20 W for 20 years is 3,504,000 Wh. That's 3,504 kWh, which at a rate of $0.11 per kWh is $385.44. So yeah, the ROI is not worth the investment, but not to the degree you imply.

And if that 250 W panel can be expected to give an average power outpower of 50 W? Then you're talking about generating $770.88 of electricity over 20 years. It's a long horizon, but possibly worth it if you expect to utilize it for 20 years. (From what I recall, solar panels these days are expected to yield 80% of their original power output for the same input after 20 years, so obviously their lifetime can be even greate than 20 years.)
elistan is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 11, 2013, 03:30 PM   #17
VulchR
macrumors 68000
 
VulchR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Scotland
ROI for solar is not just about the price of installation versus the amount one can recoup from selling electricity back into the grid. As I noted above, there are potentially indirect costs of not using solar - namely the costs of environmental damage. Also, in projecting the lifetime income from a solar panel, the assumption that fossil fuel prices will stay stable is highly suspect. A somebody once said 'it is bad to know the cost of everything but the value of nothing'.

Also, in regard to efficiency of solar panels, who cares? I don't care if I have to use 4 panels or 8 to cover my electricity needs. The issue from my perspective is avoiding global warming and other forms of environmental damage from fossil fuels as well as providing a source of energy that does not rely on other countries.

Fossil fuels are a finite resource. And, at least for oil, they are too valuable to simply be burned. One cannot make plastic cheaply without oil, and therefore any oil price hike or shortage is not only going to hit our lifestyle in terms of energy costs, but also in terms of manufacturing, food storage, etc.
__________________
My first was a Mac+. Now I own an iPhone with 3.5x the pixels, a colour display, WiFi, 512x the RAM, >1500x the data storage, and 100x the speed. And it fits in the palm of my hand.
VulchR is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 11, 2013, 06:09 PM   #18
Liquorpuki
macrumors 68020
 
Liquorpuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: City of Angels
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
We don't need more spending. Look at tesla. If it's profitable or can be someday, it will get made. If it's not profitable and won't be (most solar companies not in China) it won't get made.
Tesla was subsidized in the form of govt loans and should you buy a Model S, the government will help you out.

And environmentalism is almost never profitable, which is why it needs funding to happen. Regardless, in the long run it's almost always worthwhile because of the unforeseen costs of doing nothing. This is why capitalism shouldn't dictate policy
__________________
Ableton 9 on a Surface Pro 3, APC40, Audiobox, Yamaha KX8, Roland V-Drums HD1 + Octapad, K-Pro, Rode NT1A, MPC1000, EWI, 1200-MK5, 06-Pro
Liquorpuki is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 11, 2013, 11:55 PM   #19
Sydde
macrumors 68000
 
Sydde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
Also, in regard to efficiency of solar panels, who cares? I don't care if I have to use 4 panels or 8 to cover my electricity needs. The issue from my perspective is avoiding global warming and other forms of environmental damage from fossil fuels as well as providing a source of energy that does not rely on other countries.
Of course, the other mathematical problem is the amount of energy that goes into solar panel manufacture. It is rather small-ish, but it will always be there, it is unlikely that alternative energy sources will be sufficient to cover the energy it takes to make solar, wind, geothermal, etc, generators in the first place. I mean, look at wind turbine towers, the amount of metal in those things is very non-trivial.

I like my bicycles and would use them for most of my transportation needs if the roads were not choked with ___-____s in cars, but, as incredibly efficient as a bicycle is, it still takes a fair amount of energy to make and to supply with tires, brake pads, etc.

There is no green lunch. Which is not to say that we should just throw up our hands and drive around in 9 GPM road toads or otherwise not make efforts toward improving the overall situation, but come on, folks, be realistic.
__________________
You got to be a spirit. You can't be no ghost.
Sydde is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 12, 2013, 06:53 AM   #20
VulchR
macrumors 68000
 
VulchR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydde View Post
....
There is no green lunch. Which is not to say that we should just throw up our hands and drive around in 9 GPM road toads or otherwise not make efforts toward improving the overall situation, but come on, folks, be realistic.
I agree to some extent, but not about what is 'realistic'. The only thing preventing us from going completely to sustainable energy sources is the will to do so. IMO lack of wisdom and foresight also plays a role. Fossil fuels cause damage and they are certain to run out. Can't see them having much of a future in my kid's lifetime. No doubt it will take another jolt to energy imports (like 1974, but perhaps this time involving Iran) before people in the West wake up and smell the roses....
__________________
My first was a Mac+. Now I own an iPhone with 3.5x the pixels, a colour display, WiFi, 512x the RAM, >1500x the data storage, and 100x the speed. And it fits in the palm of my hand.
VulchR is offline   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Be Careful What You Wish For...or...Haste Makes Waste 63dot Politics, Religion, Social Issues 8 May 13, 2013 10:51 AM
Mockups are a waste of time Prodo123 Apple, Industry and Internet Discussion 2 Sep 30, 2012 09:03 PM
Ml a big waste of time Nychot OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion 2 Aug 9, 2012 09:19 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:36 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC