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Old Feb 16, 2013, 10:07 AM   #1
Mac'nCheese
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Enough With The "Fascism" Already

It seems like everyday on this forum, someone compares something the USA gov't is doing or wants to do to fascism. Jesus H., people, I'm against the big soda ban in NYC as much as the next fat guy but I would hardly say that's fascism or leading us down the road to fascism. Telling companies how much MPG their cars/trucks have to get...FASCISM? Come on, there is a big difference between restrictions and laws and trying to protect people and the environment and fascism. Is common sense completely lost to people nowadays? Pretty sure all the fascist nations in the past started with something a lot more important than the size of their beverages.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 10:12 AM   #2
citizenzen
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I don't mind.

It relegates those people to the "crackpot" category.

I'd rather they find a more rational approach, but what can you do?
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 10:59 AM   #3
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NYC is a toilet. I left when I was 28 and never looked back.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 11:04 AM   #4
Moyank24
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Every time someone in the US misuses the word fascism or socialism, they should get fined. It would go a long way towards helping our deficit.

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NYC is a toilet. I left when I was 28 and never looked back.
This seems a bit off topic.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 01:21 PM   #5
LIVEFRMNYC
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Every time someone in the US misuses the word fascism or socialism, they should get fined. It would go a long way towards helping our deficit.

Fox News wouldn't survive that.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 06:55 PM   #6
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The veneer of society has proven throughout history to be exceedingly and unexpectedly thin. A populous so willing to give up freedom for security, often leads to one form of tyranny or another. Whether it's fascism, communism, totalitarianism, it doesn't matter.

To suggest that those individuals in our society advocating for more freedom... that those standing square-shouldered against government's natural tendency for growth, advocating for more personal liberty, more freedom and free choice... are the problem... is bordering on lunacy, in my humble opinion.

There are real things to fear in this world, real problems we face as a society... if you often find yourself on the opposite side of the argument from those advocating more freedom... it'd probably be worthwhile to seriously reconsider where your allegiances lie.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." – Thomas Jefferson
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:14 PM   #7
citizenzen
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... it'd probably be worthwhile to seriously reconsider where your allegiances lie.
Mine certainly don't lie with people who spout "fascism!" at the drop of a hat.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:21 PM   #8
classicaliberal
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Mine certainly don't lie with people who spout "fascism!" at the drop of a hat.
And mine won't be with those who only defend liberties which they themselves value, or with those who claim a moral high-ground for providing 'security' which comes at the expense of freedom and prosperity.

Sadly, we've fallen a long ways from the values this country was founded on - today, the average American cares little for liberty - instead focusing their desires on handouts, subsidies, grants, discounts, cheap entertainment, the veil of false security found through our defense and welfare budgets.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

"Give me Liberty, or Give me Death!" -Patrick Henry
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:23 PM   #9
citizenzen
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And mine won't be with those who only defend liberties which they themselves value, or with those who claim a moral high-ground for providing 'security' which comes at the expense of freedom and prosperity.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin
That Ben Franklin quote was addressed in another thread.

I don't think you know what he really meant when he said that.

I'll see if I can find it again.

Edit: here it is ...

Quote:
What Ben Franklin Really Said
By Benjamin Wittes
Friday, July 15, 2011

Here’s an interesting historical fact I have dug up in some research for an essay I am writing about the relationship between liberty and security: That famous quote by Benjamin Franklin that “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety” does not mean what it seems to say. Not at all.

Very few people who quote these words, however, have any idea where they come from or what Franklin was really saying when he wrote them.

The words appear originally in a 1755 letter that Franklin is presumed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial governor during the French and Indian War. The letter was a salvo in a power struggle between the governor and the Assembly over funding for security on the frontier, one in which the Assembly wished to tax the lands of the Penn family, which ruled Pennsylvania from afar, to raise money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept vetoing the Assembly’s efforts at the behest of the family, which had appointed him. So to start matters, Franklin was writing not as a subject being asked to cede his liberty to government, but in his capacity as a legislator being asked to renounce his power to tax lands notionally under his jurisdiction. In other words, the “essential liberty” to which Franklin referred was thus not what we would think of today as civil liberties but, rather, the right of self-governance of a legislature in the interests of collective security.

... the Penn family later offered cash to fund defense of the frontier–as long as the Assembly would acknowledge that it lacked the power to tax the family’s lands. Franklin was thus complaining of the choice facing the legislature between being able to make funds available for frontier defense and maintaining its right of self-governance–and he was criticizing the governor for suggesting it should be willing to give up the latter to ensure the former.

In short, Franklin was not describing some tension between government power and individual liberty. He was describing, rather, effective self-government in the service of security as the very liberty it would be contemptible to trade.


About the Author

Benjamin Wittes is a Senior Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution, where he co-directs the Harvard Law School-Brookings Project on Law and Security. He is the author of several books and a member of the Hoover Institution's Task Force on National Security and Law.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/w...n-really-said/
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:37 PM   #10
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I don't think you know what he really meant when he said that.
I know quite well what he really meant - as does anyone with a general knowledge of basic english and American history. Benjamin Franklin's commitment to liberty is not in question.

It wouldn't take more than a lazy man's Google search to understand these basic facts - and yet you (and your article's author seem bent on proving the unprovable).

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." -An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania, 1759
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:41 PM   #11
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by classicaliberal View Post
I know quite well what he really meant - as does anyone with a general knowledge of basic english and American history. Benjamin Franklin's commitment to liberty is not in question.

It wouldn't take more than a lazy man's Google search to understand these basic facts - and yet you (and your article's author seem bent on proving the unprovable).

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." -An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania, 1759
Waitaminnit.



If anybody could understand what Franklin "really meant", why would you then say the author I quoted is "bent on proving the unprovable".

It sounds to me as if you're contradicting yourself.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicaliberal View Post
I know quite well what he really meant - as does anyone with a general knowledge of basic english and American history. Benjamin Franklin's commitment to liberty is not in question.

It wouldn't take more than a lazy man's Google search to understand these basic facts - and yet you (and your article's author seem bent on proving the unprovable).

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." -An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania, 1759
Define "Virtue" and "Liberty" please.

And my follow up would be do you think the united states government is a fascist government ?
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:50 PM   #13
Moyank24
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Originally Posted by classicaliberal View Post
And mine won't be with those who only defend liberties which they themselves value, or with those who claim a moral high-ground for providing 'security' which comes at the expense of freedom and prosperity.

Sadly, we've fallen a long ways from the values this country was founded on - today, the average American cares little for liberty - instead focusing their desires on handouts, subsidies, grants, discounts, cheap entertainment, the veil of false security found through our defense and welfare budgets.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

"Give me Liberty, or Give me Death!" -Patrick Henry
And, yet, how many states voted to yes to gay marriage for the first time? This was a majority voting for the rights of a minority and they voted yes for something that would not effect them.

There is hope. But to see that hope we have to give credit where it is due. Something that seems hard to do for some.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 10:29 AM   #14
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Every time someone in the US misuses the word fascism or socialism, they should get fined. It would go a long way towards helping our deficit.
A Giant Congressional Swear-jar.
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